Miscellaneous NHL Discussion CI: Friday, March 8 at 3 p.m. ET. (TV info in OP)

[MacDonald4MVP]

So happy they hired Treivaling.

 

[gertbfrobe16]

NAK has 11 points this year.

Cates, Deslauriers, and Hathaway have 12.

you can't stop NAK, you can only hope to contain him. 1 goal 2 asst. Game.

 

[Curufinwe]

Think Tampa make the playoffs and Philly does not.

 

[wankstifier]

Does LA try to move PLD before that movement clause kicks in?

 

[deadhead]

I pointed this out quite a bit last season, as did other posters, but I never understood that type of projection for Cates. But Charlie wasnt the only one, either. Torts talking about Cates at the beginning of the season, he held the same basic view point. 'What if Catesy steps up and produces more offense'. It's pretty clear this team was counting on Cates to take a step forward offensively this season. I have no idea why... He's never been an offensive player. They knew his offensive production last year stemmed from playing with TK and Farabee. They knew he wasn't going to be playing with those guys again with Couts coming back. Also, every advanced analytical said Cates was not a good individual offensive player. I can't believe that their models didn't say the same thing. It's insane, I don't understand why he wasn't pegged for a statistical regression, other than delusion.

I don't think they counted on anything. It's a rebuild, they know he's a top defensive forward, he's a solid LW, what they're exploring is how far he could progress at center. I don't think they saw him as a top 6 center (though he might be a 2LW on the right line) - but if he could give you 30 ES points a year, he'd be a great 3C. And it's not like (see Laughton, Poehling) there's a lot of viable options for 3C right now.

This is why the Frost v Cates was a thing in fans' minds, but not the FO. Very different roles, Torts wants to push Frost to be a legitimate 2C who pushes play, Cates is a swiss army knife you move around as needed and use as a shutdown center with a 3rd period lead.

 

[VladDrag]

I don't think they counted on anything. It's a rebuild, they know he's a top defensive forward, he's a solid LW, what they're exploring is how far he could progress at center. I don't think they saw him as a top 6 center (though he might be a 2LW on the right line) - but if he could give you 30 ES points a year, he'd be a great 3C. And it's not like (see Laughton, Poehling) there's a lot of viable options for 3C right now.

This is why the Frost v Cates was a thing in fans' minds, but not the FO. Very different roles, Torts wants to push Frost to be a legitimate 2C who pushes play, Cates is a swiss army knife you move around as needed and use as a shutdown center with a 3rd period lead.

I could buy that this is the Flyers thought process...Except last season, not only was he deployed as a top 6 center, he was deployed as the top-line center with the best offensive wingers on the team. Torts repeatedly stated that Cates was a center.

So either what you're saying is correct and their thought process last season in deploying a swiss army knife as the top-line center was extremely short-sighted, or this isn't their thought process and they thought that Cates could be a scoring line center.

 

[deadhead]

I could buy that this is the Flyers thought process...Except last season, not only was he deployed as a top 6 center, he was deployed as the top-line center with the best offensive wingers on the team. Torts repeatedly stated that Cates was a center.

So either what you're saying is correct and their thought process last season in deploying a swiss army knife as the top-line center was extremely short-sighted, or this isn't their thought process and they thought that Cates could be a scoring line center.

Cates and Frost got equal minutes at center once they were both starters and equal talent (Tippett is a very good fit for Frost, not so much for Cates). Both were given a chance to show their skill sets. Hayes was demoted to 3C. Laughton played LW.

They tried Poehling at 3C for about 10 games this year, to see if his excellent play at 4C translated up the lineup - nope. What worked as a checking center didn't work when you require the center to actually make plays.

I think they're going to draft some centers, but also sign a veteran to a short-term deal this summer to help the development of young wingers. Cates is destined to move back to LW at some point, much like Laughton, but might stay at center until they find a better option.

 

[VladDrag]

Cates and Frost got equal minutes at center once they were both starters and equal talent (Tippett is a very good fit for Frost, not so much for Cates). Both were given a chance to show their skill sets. Hayes was demoted to 3C. Laughton played LW.

They tried Poehling at 3C for about 10 games this year, to see if his excellent play at 4C translated up the lineup - nope. What worked as a checking center didn't work when you require the center to actually make plays.

I think they're going to draft some centers, but also sign a veteran to a short-term deal this summer to help the development of young wingers. Cates is destined to move back to LW at some point, much like Laughton, but might stay at center until they find a better option.

Weird that you keep brining up Frost. I haven't said a thing about him in both posts....

I'm talking about Cates and his deployment, which was a top-line center. And you know Tippett is not as good as Farabee, let alone TK. You know this. Stop.

 

[deadhead]

Weird that you keep brining up Frost. I haven't said a thing about him in both posts....

I'm talking about Cates and his deployment, which was a top-line center. And you know Tippett is not as good as Farabee, let alone TK. You know this. Stop.

Tippett and Frost had great chemistry last year, and Tiippett was better than Farabee last year.

Chemistry matters, Tippett's style of play is a much better fit with Frost, why they split up those two puzzled me, other than they want to see different players in different roles for evaluation purposes (which supports that they're still focused on rebuilding).

If you keep Cates at center, you need to give him speed and playmaking on the wing, and let him fill that CYA role that Couts does so well (why TK plays so well with him, more comfortable taking chances knowing Couts will clean up his mistakes). Cates can't carry mediocre offensive skill wingers, in that case get him fast forecheckers on a premier checking line.

 

[VladDrag]

Tippett and Frost had great chemistry last year, and Tiippett was better than Farabee last year.

Chemistry matters, Tippett's style of play is a much better fit with Frost, why they split up those two puzzled me, other than they want to see different players in different roles for evaluation purposes (which supports that they're still focused on rebuilding).

If you keep Cates at center, you need to give him speed and playmaking on the wing, and let him fill that CYA role that Couts does so well (why TK plays so well with him, more comfortable taking chances knowing Couts will clean up his mistakes). Cates can't carry mediocre offensive skill wingers, in that case get him fast forecheckers on a premier checking line.

You know, over the last two seasons, Frost’s xG numbers with TK are significantly better than his numbers with Tippett?

I can’t continue this conversation if you think Tippett is as good as TK. We are just too far apart.

 

[deadhead]

You know, over the last two seasons, Frost’s xG numbers with TK are significantly better than his numbers with Tippett?

I can’t continue this conversation if you think Tippett is as good as TK. We are just too far apart.

That isn't the point. You have build 3 lines (well, this year basically 2).
TK is better with Couts than Frost, Tippett is better with Frost than anyone else.
Healthy Farabee is good with everyone, but best LW should be on 1st line.

So:
Farabee - Couts - TK is obvious
Foerster - Frost - Tippett

Laughton - Cates? - Brink/Atkinson
Poehling - Hathaway

 

[Cody Webster]

You're doing God's work Vlad, have mercy on your poor soul

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

"Cates and Frost got equal minutes at center once they were both starters and equal talent"

Points out that they didn't have equal linemates.

"That isn't the point."

 

[VladDrag]

"Cates and Frost got equal minutes at center once they were both starters and equal talent"

Points out that they didn't have equal linemates.

"That isn't the point."

the point was originally about Cates projections as well.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It is irrefutable that Tortorella and the Flyers have been wrong about Cates and their enthusiasm for him.

A bunch of us were right though, and that's very positive. I am thankful and glad the team gave us this opportunity to be right.

 

[Curufinwe]

Cates being a 4 point 4th liner halfway thru the season is hilarious. And, evidently, triggering.

 

[Rebels57]

The worst part about this Cates fiasco and that the organization is doing a disservice to the player. He'd be a lot more effective as a bottom 6 winger. Why can't they see that? Hell even in the top 6 with Frost and Tippett he showed to be a lot more effective.

I guess that's what happens when this is your offensive guru.

 

[deadhead]

The worst part about this Cates fiasco and that the organization is doing a disservice to the player. He'd be a lot more effective as a bottom 6 winger. Why can't they see that? Hell even in the top 6 with Frost and Tippett he showed to be a lot more effective.

I guess that's what happens when this is your offensive guru.

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I think it's called rebuilding? You know, when you do things that don't maximize your chances of winning so you can evaluate young players and see who you want to keep and how you want to use them going forward.

And when your options are Laughton, Poehling or Laczynski, playing Cates at 3C makes a lot of sense.

 

[Cody Webster]

I think it's called rebuilding? You know, when you do things that don't maximize your chances of winning so you can evaluate young players and see who you want to keep and how you want to use them going forward.

And when your options are Laughton, Poehling or Laczynski, playing Cates at 3C makes a lot of sense.

Oh, they're rebuilding? Certainly have 99% of the fanbase fooled about that one

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think it's called rebuilding? You know, when you do things that don't maximize your chances of winning so you can evaluate young players and see who you want to keep and how you want to use them going forward.

And when your options are Laughton, Poehling or Laczynski, playing Cates at 3C makes a lot of sense.

He's been thoroughly evaluated at center and was less effective than at wing, but they're determined to keep him at center.

That's not "rebuilding" that's "foolish."

 

[Beef Invictus]

Hey, this being the Miscellaneous NHL Thread, anyone happen to know how any other former Flyers bottom six wingers are doing in Washington?

 

[freakydallas13]

I think it's called rebuilding? You know, when you do things that don't maximize your chances of winning so you can evaluate young players and see who you want to keep and how you want to use them going forward.

And when your options are Laughton, Poehling or Laczynski, playing Cates at 3C makes a lot of sense.

Is that why Torts said he wasn't going to develop young players at the expense of wins re: Zamula earlier this year? Because he's not maximizing his chances of winning so he can evaluate young players?

 

[deadhead]

He's been thoroughly evaluated at center and was less effective than at wing, but they're determined to keep him at center.

That's not "rebuilding" that's "foolish."

Have you watched Laughton and Poehling at 3C this season?
And Laczynski is barely top six in LHV. He's not a viable option.

Ironically, Vorobyev has become a top six KHL center having his best season, but doubt he wants to return (though Flyers still have his rights). Of course, it took him 4 KHL seasons to get it together.

I could see the Flyers picking up a veteran FA center on a 3 year deal while they try to draft and develop a young center. The other option is trade for one, but I don't think they have enough NHL ready assets to pull that off quite yet.

Is Barkey a true center or a winger at the NHL level? Probably 3 years away, needs to get a lot stronger to play in the NHL.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Have you watched Laughton and Poehling at 3C this season?
And Laczynski is barely top six in LHV. He's not a viable option.

Ironically, Vorobyev has become a top six KHL center having his best season, but doubt he wants to return (though Flyers still have his rights). Of course, it took him 4 KHL seasons to get it together.

I could see the Flyers picking up a veteran FA center on a 3 year deal while they try to draft and develop a young center. The other option is trade for one, but I don't think they have enough NHL ready assets to pull that off quite yet.

Is Barkey a true center or a winger at the NHL level? Probably 3 years away, needs to get a lot stronger to play in the NHL.

If they're rebuilding, and Cates is considered a piece for the future, then it's more important for him to develop where he is best (which sure seems to be wing) than it is for the team to be maybe (likely not, actually) a little better down the middle.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Does LA try to move PLD before that movement clause kicks in?

I never understood the fascination with this guy. He has underachieved most of his career and LA gave him that stupid contract. Good luck finding a taker. Buyer beware