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Minnesota Wild General Discussion XIX

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ThatGuy22 said:
Based on what? The reports following Fletcher's visit were positive, and reset the relationship which was the goal. You're making Fenton into a hero for securing Kaprizov when there is zero evidence of it.

Whatever happened early on between Kaprizov and his original N/A agent, and their communication is what is is. When Kaprizov got Milstein as an Agent, Fletcher approached him to fly over together, meet him and reset. As things had apparently gotten lost in translation before.

There is no evidence Fenton, or BG did anything more than continue that.
Click to expand...
You're also making it that the issue was 100% on the agent:

zonecoverage.com

REMINGTON: The Minnesota Wild and Kirill Kaprizov Situation - Zone Coverage

With the news that Minnesota Wild GM Paul Fenton visited Europe earlier this season to visit draft pick/Russian sensation Kirill Kaprizov, Wild fans got
zonecoverage.com zonecoverage.com

He’s said publicly that he wants to play in the NHL, but also has not had kind words about the previous Wild regime under Chuck Fletcher, and the possibility of Kaprizov spurning the Wild either for staying home in the KHL or wanting to sign with another NHL team is very real.
Click to expand...

Mind you, Fletcher went over in January of 2018 and he got fired three months later. He had one visit with Kaprizov.

thehockeywriters.com

5 Years & 3 GMs Later, Minnesota Wild Finally Sign Kaprizov - The Hockey Writers Wild Prospects Latest News, Analysis & More

Kirill Kaprizov, a 2015 draft pick and top scorer in the KHL, signed this summer to play with the Minnesota Wild after 5 Years and 3 GMs.
thehockeywriters.com thehockeywriters.com

“They weren’t too interested in me,” he said in a 2017 interview with Sport-Express. “What round was I picked at? The fifth? I think that they forgot about me immediately after the selection.”
Click to expand...

zonecoverage.com

Why the Minnesota Wild May Sign Kirill Kaprizov, Even Though He Cannot Play This Year - Zone Coverage

Offense comes easy to Kirill Kaprizov. He does work hard, using his Zach Parise-like motor to get to the scoring areas. But getting the puck past goalies?
zonecoverage.com zonecoverage.com

Kaprizov took Fletcher’s lack of communication as indifference. Kaprizov signed an extension with Moscow that kept him locked into the KHL until spring 2020. “They weren’t too interested in me,” he said in a 2017 interview with Sport-Express (translated here). “What round was I picked at? The fifth? I think that they forgot about me immediately after the selection.”
Click to expand...
 
thestonedkoala said:
You're also making it that the issue was 100% on the agent:

zonecoverage.com

REMINGTON: The Minnesota Wild and Kirill Kaprizov Situation - Zone Coverage

With the news that Minnesota Wild GM Paul Fenton visited Europe earlier this season to visit draft pick/Russian sensation Kirill Kaprizov, Wild fans got
zonecoverage.com zonecoverage.com

Mind you, Fletcher went over in January of 2018 and he got fired three months later. He had one visit with Kaprizov.

thehockeywriters.com

5 Years & 3 GMs Later, Minnesota Wild Finally Sign Kaprizov - The Hockey Writers Wild Prospects Latest News, Analysis & More

Kirill Kaprizov, a 2015 draft pick and top scorer in the KHL, signed this summer to play with the Minnesota Wild after 5 Years and 3 GMs.
thehockeywriters.com thehockeywriters.com

zonecoverage.com

Why the Minnesota Wild May Sign Kirill Kaprizov, Even Though He Cannot Play This Year - Zone Coverage

Offense comes easy to Kirill Kaprizov. He does work hard, using his Zach Parise-like motor to get to the scoring areas. But getting the puck past goalies?
zonecoverage.com zonecoverage.com
Click to expand...

I'm not making anything up, I've already acknowledged all that. I do think that comes down largely to whatever went wrong with Kaprizov and his first agent.

I mean, this is all with the benefit of hindsight. Had we known what Kaprizov would be come, Fletcher probably would have had Bombardir relocated to Moscow to check in with him every other day.

What's the actual timeline, and sequence of events.

July 2015: Drafted as a late pick
2015-2016 Season: has a good season, eyebrow raising for sure on a bad team.
2016-2017 Season: Takes another step, Fletcher travels to WJC to meet him, give him his draft jersey. Ends up having to meet his GF and agent. According to all available reports, through this time his Agent is assuring him he'll come over after his contract ends in 2018.
2017 offseason: Kaprizov traded to CSKA and extends for two more years, makes those quotes, ghosts and fires his previous agent. Surprising basically everyone on this side of the pond.

So yes, things unraveled quickly, and i'm sure it's one of Fletcher's biggest regrets from his time here he didn't get in front of Kaprizov in the 2016-2017 season, despite trying.

But at the same time, Kaprizov was a 5th round pick, and kind of came out of no where Siberia. It's really not unreal to think that talking through his agent, the person he hired to represent him and taking his word for it. He also made an attempt to meet him. So he hardly "ignored" him like you said. There is probably not a GM in the league that's flying out there in the 15/16 season, and most would probably also assume they'd get a chance to meet at the WJC.

Objectively, to me, Fletcher's actions seem reasonable based upon what we knew at the time. Had he had the foresight the Kaprizov was going to be a 100+ point player, he'd probably drafted him in the first round and completely changed Fletcher's approach.
 
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ThatGuy22 said:
Objectively, to me, Fletcher's actions seem reasonable based upon what we knew at the time. Had he had the foresight the Kaprizov was going to be a 100+ point player, he'd probably drafted him in the first round and completely changed Fletcher's approach.
Click to expand...

In 2015, when Kaprizov was drafted he was an unknown kid for Siberia.

14-15: He had 8 points in 31 games in the KHL. His U18 points were good
15-16: He had 27 points in 53 games, had 10 points in the MHL and 3 points in the U20.
16-17: He exploded for 42 points in 49 games and 12 points in the WJC.

The crazy thing is either a) Fletcher didn't have a scout keeping an eye on Kaprizov after they drafted him or b) as Kaprizov said they forgot they drafted him. Added to that that Fletcher tried to give Kaprizov up for nothing makes me think he didn't know much about the kid or didn't have scouts watching him progress. You would think that Fletcher would have his Russian or European scout keep an eye on Kaprizov and make notes of his progress. Like hey, maybe we should start looking at this kid more seriously. You may want to come over here and just talk to him because he's looking good.
 
thestonedkoala said:
In 2015, when Kaprizov was drafted he was an unknown kid for Siberia.

14-15: He had 8 points in 31 games in the KHL. His U18 points were good
15-16: He had 27 points in 53 games, had 10 points in the MHL and 3 points in the U20.
16-17: He exploded for 42 points in 49 games and 12 points in the WJC.

The crazy thing is either a) Fletcher didn't have a scout keeping an eye on Kaprizov after they drafted him or b) as Kaprizov said they forgot they drafted him. Added to that that Fletcher tried to give Kaprizov up for nothing makes me think he didn't know much about the kid or didn't have scouts watching him progress. You would think that Fletcher would have his Russian or European scout keep an eye on Kaprizov and make notes of his progress. Like hey, maybe we should start looking at this kid more seriously. You may want to come over here and just talk to him because he's looking good.
Click to expand...

This is all just nonsense conspiracy theory stuff. We know Fletcher and the organization was keeping track of him, because during his 16-17, half way through he brought his Draft Jersey to the WJC and tried to meet him, ending up meeting with his GF and agent instead.

A GM isn't going to travel to the WJC with a draft jersey, and meet the GF of a "random" 5th round picks. I can guarantee BG isn't going out of his way to ensure Matvei Guskov gets his draft jersey.

Kaprizov was special, and was treated special even before he signed his extension. With the benefit of hind sight, we know it obviously wasn't enough. He wanted to be treated like a UFA to be woo-ed, and Fletcher treated him like a draft pick that doesn't have rights to go anywhere else, but is still a special prospect.
 
ThatGuy22 said:
This is all just nonsense conspiracy theory stuff. We know Fletcher and the organization was keeping track of him, because during his 16-17, half way through he brought his Draft Jersey to the WJC and tried to meet him, ending up meeting with his GF and agent instead.

A GM isn't going to travel to the WJC with a draft jersey, and meet the GF of a "random" 5th round picks. I can guarantee BG isn't going out of his way to ensure Matvei Guskov gets his draft jersey.

Kaprizov was special, and was treated special even before he signed his extension. With the benefit of hind sight, we know it obviously wasn't enough. He wanted to be treated like a UFA to be woo-ed, and Fletcher treated him like a draft pick that doesn't have rights to go anywhere else, but is still a special prospect.
Click to expand...
Or it was convenient for Fletcher to meet with Kaprizov as Fletcher didn't have to fly out to Siberia. More so, I believe they said that it was the WJC when they started to take notice of him. The game isn't also one day and they go home. So, they probably kept track of him while at the WJC since it was a two-week affair.

I think Guskov got his jersey because he was in the OHL, but you're talking about Johansson (the other one) or Khusnutsdinov? Maybe? Who knows.

The thing is we stories that Kaprizov wasn't happy with the previous regime, but he still signed.
 
Question

How do fans on this board look at the development timelines of O'Rourke, Hunt, Lambos, & Peart? I think this is an important part of the topic of roster construction over the buyout years. My assumption is that both O'Rourke & Hunt start in the AHL next season. Given BG's current MO, I would guess that means the plan is to play them in a #1 pairing D type role (big minutes, special teams, tough matchups, etc) unless forced to do otherwise. What are the chances that O'Rourke & Hunt are on the Wild roster to start the 23-24 season (both would be 21 years old & finish the year at 22)? I am also assuming that Addison starts next season as a 3rd pairing/PP specialist player. Could Lambos be up in the AHL as well next year? Probably doubtful given BG's generally conservative approach. Does anyone have insight into how long Peart will stay in college?

It is too bad that it seems like we are trending in a direction where we aren't able to push the Fiala/Dumba decision until the end of next season. It seems like you'd have a lot more clarity on the ability for this next set of Wild D prospects ability to step in and provide a foundation on the backend during their ELCs over the remaining portion of the buyout period. It may make it easier to let go of Dumba.

To me, something the Wild should consider when making roster decisions is that they likely really only need to get through next season before high-level internal prospects should be ready to get NHL time if the Wild want to be a touch on the aggressive side with development. In addition, they have at least 2 additional high-end defensive prospects right on the tails of the first group. All 4 likely will not pan out at their ceiling, but it would be surprising to see them not become NHL-caliber players. Add Addison to the mix who should see regular time next season and should be an NHL level player and the Wild will likely be in a strong position to really upgrade this position during the buyout period while minimizing cap hit impact.

Given that BG seems to want to resign Dumba, how do you all see this working out given that after Dumba's contract all 3 will likely be signed until at least the 26-27 season. If the Wild do manage to a path through the buyout period that continues to allow them to grow on a trajectory towards being a contender... I think this development trend will be the reason why.

How do you all rank the potential of this group of D? What are there player comparisons?
 
thestonedkoala said:
Okay, so Fenton wasn't the first, but the damage was already done by Fletcher's group.


Because Fletcher made some major missteps with the organization that Fenton and Guerin had to clean up like how Fletcher had to clean up Riser's mess when he left. You're also tossing out hyperbole when there are legitimate questions about what Guerin is doing with the roster.


I mean people were singing praises about Talbot last year, and now he sucks.

Eh, it depends. I blame the scheduling more than anything. We knew this stretch was going to be brutal on the team.
Click to expand...

Talbot was an all star this season.
 
Nino Noderreiter said:
Question

How do fans on this board look at the development timelines of O'Rourke, Hunt, Lambos, & Peart? I think this is an important part of the topic of roster construction over the buyout years. My assumption is that both O'Rourke & Hunt start in the AHL next season. Given BG's current MO, I would guess that means the plan is to play them in a #1 pairing D type role (big minutes, special teams, tough matchups, etc) unless forced to do otherwise. What are the chances that O'Rourke & Hunt are on the Wild roster to start the 23-24 season (both would be 21 years old & finish the year at 22)? I am also assuming that Addison starts next season as a 3rd pairing/PP specialist player. Could Lambos be up in the AHL as well next year? Probably doubtful given BG's generally conservative approach. Does anyone have insight into how long Peart will stay in college?

It is too bad that it seems like we are trending in a direction where we aren't able to push the Fiala/Dumba decision until the end of next season. It seems like you'd have a lot more clarity on the ability for this next set of Wild D prospects ability to step in and provide a foundation on the backend during their ELCs over the remaining portion of the buyout period. It may make it easier to let go of Dumba.

To me, something the Wild should consider when making roster decisions is that they likely really only need to get through next season before high-level internal prospects should be ready to get NHL time if the Wild want to be a touch on the aggressive side with development. In addition, they have at least 2 additional high-end defensive prospects right on the tails of the first group. All 4 likely will not pan out at their ceiling, but it would be surprising to see them not become NHL-caliber players. Add Addison to the mix who should see regular time next season and should be an NHL level player and the Wild will likely be in a strong position to really upgrade this position during the buyout period while minimizing cap hit impact.

Given that BG seems to want to resign Dumba, how do you all see this working out given that after Dumba's contract all 3 will likely be signed until at least the 26-27 season. If the Wild do manage to a path through the buyout period that continues to allow them to grow on a trajectory towards being a contender... I think this development trend will be the reason why.

How do you all rank the potential of this group of D? What are there player comparisons?
Click to expand...
ROR and Hunt playing big minutes in the AHL next year, both compete for depth roles in 23/24. Peart should stay in college and fill out more IMO, I think he will be a very good player with Leddy caliber potential, asses progress after sophomore year and see if ready for AHL, otherwise a junior year is fine by me. Lambos is the wild card, he could be really good and force his hand into the 2nd pairing sooner than later, that 23/24 training camp is going to be a good one for D competition. I think ROR and Hunt end up more in the mold of good #4 or #5 d men if they pan out, Lambos and Peart have true top 4/line carrying potential IMO.
 
Nino Noderreiter said:
Question

How do fans on this board look at the development timelines of O'Rourke, Hunt, Lambos, & Peart? I think this is an important part of the topic of roster construction over the buyout years. My assumption is that both O'Rourke & Hunt start in the AHL next season. Given BG's current MO, I would guess that means the plan is to play them in a #1 pairing D type role (big minutes, special teams, tough matchups, etc) unless forced to do otherwise. What are the chances that O'Rourke & Hunt are on the Wild roster to start the 23-24 season (both would be 21 years old & finish the year at 22)? I am also assuming that Addison starts next season as a 3rd pairing/PP specialist player. Could Lambos be up in the AHL as well next year? Probably doubtful given BG's generally conservative approach. Does anyone have insight into how long Peart will stay in college?

It is too bad that it seems like we are trending in a direction where we aren't able to push the Fiala/Dumba decision until the end of next season. It seems like you'd have a lot more clarity on the ability for this next set of Wild D prospects ability to step in and provide a foundation on the backend during their ELCs over the remaining portion of the buyout period. It may make it easier to let go of Dumba.

To me, something the Wild should consider when making roster decisions is that they likely really only need to get through next season before high-level internal prospects should be ready to get NHL time if the Wild want to be a touch on the aggressive side with development. In addition, they have at least 2 additional high-end defensive prospects right on the tails of the first group. All 4 likely will not pan out at their ceiling, but it would be surprising to see them not become NHL-caliber players. Add Addison to the mix who should see regular time next season and should be an NHL level player and the Wild will likely be in a strong position to really upgrade this position during the buyout period while minimizing cap hit impact.

Given that BG seems to want to resign Dumba, how do you all see this working out given that after Dumba's contract all 3 will likely be signed until at least the 26-27 season. If the Wild do manage to a path through the buyout period that continues to allow them to grow on a trajectory towards being a contender... I think this development trend will be the reason why.

How do you all rank the potential of this group of D? What are there player comparisons?
Click to expand...

O'Rourke and Hunt should be in the AHL next season, but I'm not sure they'll go straight to "#1 all situations" guys. I think they both spend the following year in the AHL as well. At least to start.

Lambos can't play in the AHL next season, but he's the highest ceiling guy of all our D prospects. I expect him to be a solid two-way top pairing guy in the mold of Pietrangelo, maybe less physical. But he'll probably get an AHL season too.

Still don't know much about Peart cause I don't watch the NCHC.

I would say that 2023-24 would be the first year we see any of these guys full time. Addison should start next season.

I think it's a mistake to keep Dumba and let Fiala go. We have a good pipeline on defense, and we can keep building it. We don't have anyone in the system that can replace Fiala, and it's very hard to find.
 
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AKL said:
O'Rourke and Hunt should be in the AHL next season, but I'm not sure they'll go straight to "#1 all situations" guys. I think they both spend the following year in the AHL as well. At least to start.

Lambos can't play in the AHL next season, but he's the highest ceiling guy of all our D prospects. I expect him to be a solid two-way top pairing guy in the mold of Pietrangelo, maybe less physical. But he'll probably get an AHL season too.

Still don't know much about Peart cause I don't watch the NCHC.

I would say that 2023-24 would be the first year we see any of these guys full time. Addison should start next season.

I think it's a mistake to keep Dumba and let Fiala go. We have a good pipeline on defense, and we can keep building it. We don't have anyone in the system that can replace Fiala, and it's very hard to find.
Click to expand...

I think this is all very reasonable. I'm not sure it's really talked about from this perspective even if I were to concede the other reasons to argue Fiala over Dumba the Wild's projected development pipeline alone should be enough reason to keep. Fiala over Dumba.

What the Wild are really looking at is a 1-year gap to lean on Brodin/Spurgeon (and Merrill/Kulikov are roughly replacement level not good or bad as a 3rd pairing) to find ways to hold their own even if they struggle to be much better than average as a unit. It will be interesting to see who Addison plays with given Dean plays his 3rd pairing in a heavy d-zone start / higher percentage of higher end matchups than normal 3rd pairings.

I still mostly think that against most teams, at least in the regular season, size & physicality matters much less than skating ability, puck skills, and passing ability for defense, but I'm not sure I can see Dean playing Spurgeon/Addison together. That's not ideal because Brodin gets the toughest shutdown minutes & Spurgeon's 70% offensive zone start is probably what you want Addison doing.

As for O'Rourke/Hunt, I wouldn't surprised personally because I don't think the Wild have a lot of talent in Iowa right now at the position. I would also make the argument that because of our cap situation we are put in a position where we have to make difficult choices in a world with the constraints that we have. I think it's important that the Wild try to push their top prospects as quickly as they are able to handle it. We cannot afford to keep everyone that we normally could or would. We can't afford to have a playing not to lose rather than a playing to win mentality. The Wild need their young players to be more ready than expected earlier than expected and even if they are not they need the offensive & overall talent upside in their lineup even it comes with inconsistency.

O'Rourke & Hunt need as many minutes as possible, in as many situations as possible, and against as tough of matches as possible as quickly as possible. We need to do everything to test them early & allow them to learn where they need to improve quickly and we need to as a fanbase be comfortable with the idea that not every rookie is Kaprizov or Boldy. We need to get comfortable with development in the NHL.

Losing Fiala & replacing him internally + continuing to rely on Hartman/Gaudeau for key minutes + players like Benn on defense is a recipe for disaster.

Ovechkid08 said:
ROR and Hunt playing big minutes in the AHL next year, both compete for depth roles in 23/24. Peart should stay in college and fill out more IMO, I think he will be a very good player with Leddy caliber potential, asses progress after sophomore year and see if ready for AHL, otherwise a junior year is fine by me. Lambos is the wild card, he could be really good and force his hand into the 2nd pairing sooner than later, that 23/24 training camp is going to be a good one for D competition. I think ROR and Hunt end up more in the mold of good #4 or #5 d men if they pan out, Lambos and Peart have true top 4/line carrying potential IMO.
Click to expand...

  1. I agree with that timeline unless one of the two pulls a Boldy which isn't likely given playstyles.
  2. Certainly for O'Rourke at least, I would be surprising if he was only a #4/#5 D.
    1. O'Rourke to me, mainly from reading content on him, has a game that is tailor-made to be a 20+ mpg shutdown defender who isn't going to wow you with the puck but consistently makes the right plays and can do the things that are most important for good D to do like make a strong first pass.
    2. O'Rourke was a captain on his juniors team at 17 and able to be positive players for an Iowa Wild team that was outscoring at 18 and. hold his own as a defensive player. I would be surprised if players with those intangibles don't outperform expectations.
    3. I think more likely than not O'Rourke could be the 2nd best D paired with an offensive D on a first unit or be the stronger part of the D pairing on a 2nd unit.
    4. To me, it feels like he's going to be a stabilizer that doesn't have flashy stats but the team plays well when he's out on the ice because he is consistently making smart plays
  3. I have less of a read on Hunt but given his pedigree I would hope that he is at least a Scandella type level player.
  4. I guess I don't really disagree that O'Rourke/Hunt likely won't be line carriers in terms of driving offensive points but I don't think that means they don't have top upside.
 
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Russo just on Beyond the Pond.
- repeated that McBain will be moved, and Guerin wants a 2nd. The reason he wants multiple teams to deal with are not only so he can get a better deal, but also so one team doesn't get rewarded for tampering(which is common in these cases).
- thinks that he will be looking to add a Dman, if anything at the TDL.
- thinks that the goalie he is interested in is in the building tonight(MAF).
- that they will try to sign Meyer, but so will two dozen other teams.
 
If they traded for Fleury, would Talbot go the other way? Or would KK go to Iowa?
 
57special said:
Russo just on Beyond the Pond.
- repeated that McBain will be moved, and Guerin wants a 2nd. The reason he wants multiple teams to deal with are not only so he can get a better deal, but also so one team doesn't get rewarded for tampering(which is common in these cases).
- thinks that he will be looking to add a Dman, if anything at the TDL.
- thinks that the goalie he is interested in is in the building tonight(MAF).
- that they will try to sign Meyer, but so will two dozen other teams.
Click to expand...

Meyers would be interesting and fit the BG "mold" given his captaincy/olympics/etc. I don't know where he fits with the addition of Jost and some of the other bottom 6 players that we're trying out. Could give an avenue to eventually push Hartman/Gaudreau down the lineup to the 4th line which would be improvement in multiple areas.
 
No clue what the team does this off-season.

Kap - Hart - Zucc
Boldy - Rossi - X
GREEF
Gaudreau - Jost - Duhaime

Brodin - Dumba
Kulikov - Spurgeon
Merill - Addison

Talbot
X

RFAs: Fiala, Middleton, Dewar

Cap space: $8.5M
 
DeagleJenkins said:
because we need his ELC for cap reasons and the hope is that he is good enough to play with boldy when we trade fiala.
Click to expand...
That's a big, big hope.
Dr Jan Itor said:
Because he's doing just fine in the AHL and there is no more cap benefit to not having him here.

Why do you think he's not (besides the obvious reason)?
Click to expand...
I think he'll start in the AHL and be a later callup. I'm curious to know where Guerin sits with Rossi as he wasn't happy with Rossi earlier in the season. More so, I think Rossi needs more time to acclimate in the AHL. He got bumped down from 1st to 2nd.
 
Spurgeon said:
No clue what the team does this off-season.

Kap - Hart - Zucc
Boldy - Rossi - X
GREEF
Gaudreau - Jost - Duhaime

Brodin - Dumba
Kulikov - Spurgeon
Merill - Addison

Talbot
X

RFAs: Fiala, Middleton, Dewar

Cap space: $8.5M
Click to expand...

It'll probably be something like

Kap-Rossi-Zuccarello
Boldy-Jost-Hartman
Foligno-Eriksson Ek-Greenway
Duhaime-Gaudreau-Dewar
X

Brodin-Dumba
Middleton-Spurgeon
Kulikov-Merrill
Addison

Fleury
Talbot
 
AKL said:
It'll probably be something like

Kap-Rossi-Zuccarello
Boldy-Jost-Hartman
Foligno-Eriksson Ek-Greenway
Duhaime-Gaudreau-Dewar
X

Brodin-Dumba
Middleton-Spurgeon
Kulikov-Merrill
Addison

Fleury
Talbot
Click to expand...
Now that you lay out the lineup, I could actually see this being the plan... Using Fiala's cap savings on Fleury would be so bad.
 
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