Minnesota Wild General Discussion XIX

[TaLoN]

He tried to trade Parise, moved high price vets, at least threw a dart at the wall on trying to fix the center position. Argue all you want, but Fenton is a big reason why Kaprizov came over, why the Wild have Zuccarello.

Yeah, but his plan still involved him being a complete ass to everyone inside and out of the organization... mostly from the Bahamas.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Boldy (pretty much a no brainer pick), Fiala, and Hartman too...

Fenton started what Guerin picked up. Fenton was trying to reshape the roster with a pretty hostile ownership group that saw anything less than the playoffs as a failure.

Boldy, Beckman, Nesterenko, possibly Firstov, Warren. And you also had Lindberg. You have McBain, Khovanov, Dewar, Giroux Boudrias and Hentges in his first draft as well. Fenton could draft and knew talent, he just was terrible at being the head of things.

Yeah, but his plan still involved him being a complete ass to everyone inside and out of the organization... mostly from the Bahamas.

And Guerin's plan is...what? WIP? Like there is some legitimate concerns over what the hell Guerin is actually doing with this team and roster.

 

[TaLoN]

And Guerin's plan is...what? WIP? Like there is some legitimate concerns over what the hell Guerin is actually doing with this team and roster.

I don't know... I've already admitted that. Guerin isn't an ass to everyone inside and out of the organization mostly from the Bahamas though.

Fenton proved he couldn't be a basic human being to people first and foremost, which is why he was booted out no matter what his "plan" was.

 

[Nino Noderreiter]

He's in his 3rd season as the team's GM. Everyone on the team except Dumba, Rask, and Zucc (maybe an ELC?) was signed to a contract by him. He's made 11 trades involving players (not counting draft day pick trades), some are AHLers. 2 buyouts.

Maybe we don't have a real feel for what he's doing, because he doesn't know what he's doing?

You mean he’s held this roster in an essential freeze status outside of where it’s been degraded as a result of his own decision making (buyouts + expansion draft).

BG has watched two seasons of some of the highest winning percentage hockey in Wild history with the highest top talent level in Wild history go by content to have Kaprizov play with a 3rd line winger converted to center during his prime & run Fiala out of MN by nickel and dining his contract & refusing to give him better linemates than 4th line/AHL level talent while paying 10+m to his “identity” 3rd line and continually tinkering with a revolving door of pet projects and former players he has relationships with on the 4th line?

Oh, I forgot he gutted our D depth through the buyout process & expansion draft and loaded up on an island of misfit toys grabbing as many bottom pairing/7th D’s that he could find while making sure that injury situations or other potential development opportunities for our best D prospects closest to the NHL (Addison) were given to Benn instead.

Or he was doing everything that he could to make sure that Fiala had to play with 4th liners in win or go home playoff games so that would could guarentee that we would be able to roster a lineup that allowed Vegas to out talent and skill us in as many situations as possible.

Oh and he’s the guy that got to watch all this happen with Fiala and instead of learning from his mistake is about to let Fiala walk so he can put Boldy in the same situation as Fiala was in once the situation was finally resolved.

And lastly, he’s the guy who decided that he couldn’t keep Fiala so has not even thought about how you might try to clear enough cap space to find a way to make it work. Instead he has his hands in his ears as he tinkers with finding ways to tie up different 2m chunks in the bottom 6 and his pet projects with 25 year old 4th year centers with a faceoff percentage below 40% while at the same time letting a 22 year old 6’4 C with upside to play a couple of different roles and potential step immediately in the NHL walk because BG wants him to play his 25g in the AHL first so he can finally breathe a sigh of relief after protecting the playing time of his former penguins centers instead of improving the team

 

[Northerner]

Wasn't everyone singing Guerins praises around here a month ago? Now he's chopped liver?


Anyways, what are the odds the Wild miss the playoffs at this point? I'm starting to think they will miss the post season...??

 

[TaLoN]

Wasn't everyone singing Guerins praises around here a month ago? Now he's chopped liver?

I don't recall that either. Many have questioned every move he's made, many have been rather neutral on any move he's made.
I don't know of anyone who's given him complete credit on anything here.

Unless you were referring to that one thread created by a Chicago fan praising him? To which most of us showed how all of the core players were aquired by GMs NOT named Bill Guerin.

 

[Wabit]

You mean he’s held this roster in an essential freeze status outside of where it’s been degraded as a result of his own decision making (buyouts + expansion draft).

BG has watched two seasons of some of the highest winning percentage hockey in Wild history with the highest top talent level in Wild history go by content to have Kaprizov play with a 3rd line winger converted to center during his prime & run Fiala out of MN by nickel and dining his contract & refusing to give him better linemates than 4th line/AHL level talent while paying 10+m to his “identity” 3rd line and continually tinkering with a revolving door of pet projects and former players he has relationships with on the 4th line?

Oh, I forgot he gutted our D depth through the buyout process & expansion draft and loaded up on an island of misfit toys grabbing as many bottom pairing/7th D’s that he could find while making sure that injury situations or other potential development opportunities for our best D prospects closest to the NHL (Addison) were given to Benn instead.

Or he was doing everything that he could to make sure that Fiala had to play with 4th liners in win or go home playoff games so that would could guarentee that we would be able to roster a lineup that allowed Vegas to out talent and skill us in as many situations as possible.

Oh and he’s the guy that got to watch all this happen with Fiala and instead of learning from his mistake is about to let Fiala walk so he can put Boldy in the same situation as Fiala was in once the situation was finally resolved.

And lastly, he’s the guy who decided that he couldn’t keep Fiala so has not even thought about how you might try to clear enough cap space to find a way to make it work. Instead he has his hands in his ears as he tinkers with finding ways to tie up different 2m chunks in the bottom 6 and his pet projects with 25 year old 4th year centers with a faceoff percentage below 40% while at the same time letting a 22 year old 6’4 C with upside to play a couple of different roles and potential step immediately in the NHL walk because BG wants him to play his 25g in the AHL first so he can finally breathe a sigh of relief after protecting the playing time of his former penguins centers instead of improving the team

Pretty much.

 

[Wabit]

Wasn't everyone singing Guerins praises around here a month ago? Now he's chopped liver?


Anyways, what are the odds the Wild miss the playoffs at this point? I'm starting to think they will miss the post season...??

There was a poll earlier this season about him that was neutral to positive opinion of him IIRC. MN was winning, players were on incredible tares, the future cap hadn't been chipped away at yet, people were ignoring the flaws of the team, etc.

Now MN isn't winning, the lack of quality, depth exposed by injuries, $6m of next year's cap has been spent (Greenway, Merrill, and Jost), hot players have fallen back to Earth, a quality prospect looks like he isn't going to sign, they aren't outscoring their flaws, etc.

If MN somehow misses the Playoffs (25% chance) this year the entire coaching staff and GM need to be replaced.

 

[Minnewildsota]

He tried to trade Parise, moved high price vets, at least threw a dart at the wall on trying to fix the center position. Argue all you want, but Fenton is a big reason why Kaprizov came over, why the Wild have Zuccarello.

That’s complete speculation

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

That’s complete speculation

And Fenton had been gone for ~10 months before Kaprizov came over. I'm not even sure where the speculation would come from.

 

[thestonedkoala]

That’s complete speculation

It's not speculation. Fletcher completely ignored Kaprizov. Fenton is the one that started the dialog with Kaprizov. He flew over to Russia to meet with him.

 

[TaLoN]

It's not speculation. Fletcher completely ignored Kaprizov. Fenton is the one that started the dialog with Kaprizov. He flew over to Russia to meet with him.

And he still signed there for another year in spite of that.

 

[Wabit]

And he still signed there for another year in spite of that.

Kaprizov was on the same 3 year KHL contract (signed July 2017) the entire time Fenton was GM.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

You mean he’s held this roster in an essential freeze status outside of where it’s been degraded as a result of his own decision making (buyouts + expansion draft).

BG has watched two seasons of some of the highest winning percentage hockey in Wild history with the highest top talent level in Wild history go by content to have Kaprizov play with a 3rd line winger converted to center during his prime & run Fiala out of MN by nickel and dining his contract & refusing to give him better linemates than 4th line/AHL level talent while paying 10+m to his “identity” 3rd line and continually tinkering with a revolving door of pet projects and former players he has relationships with on the 4th line?

Oh, I forgot he gutted our D depth through the buyout process & expansion draft and loaded up on an island of misfit toys grabbing as many bottom pairing/7th D’s that he could find while making sure that injury situations or other potential development opportunities for our best D prospects closest to the NHL (Addison) were given to Benn instead.

Or he was doing everything that he could to make sure that Fiala had to play with 4th liners in win or go home playoff games so that would could guarentee that we would be able to roster a lineup that allowed Vegas to out talent and skill us in as many situations as possible.

Oh and he’s the guy that got to watch all this happen with Fiala and instead of learning from his mistake is about to let Fiala walk so he can put Boldy in the same situation as Fiala was in once the situation was finally resolved.

And lastly, he’s the guy who decided that he couldn’t keep Fiala so has not even thought about how you might try to clear enough cap space to find a way to make it work. Instead he has his hands in his ears as he tinkers with finding ways to tie up different 2m chunks in the bottom 6 and his pet projects with 25 year old 4th year centers with a faceoff percentage below 40% while at the same time letting a 22 year old 6’4 C with upside to play a couple of different roles and potential step immediately in the NHL walk because BG wants him to play his 25g in the AHL first so he can finally breathe a sigh of relief after protecting the playing time of his former penguins centers instead of improving the team

not gonna argue all of this because you really cant with a lot of things going on, however he still has time to sign Fiala. Fiala is a member of the Minnesota Wild, how exactly has he let him walk? sure we can guess that he isnt being resigned but that is not clear cut right now and he could still be worked out. One thing about acquiring players is sometimes it takes draft capital which fletcher showed us plenty. BG wants to build through the draft and not give up picks. that seems to be his plan, build through the draft and patchwork where is needed until the Prospects rise to the occasion. Not the plan anyone wants maybe however it is a plan and currently it is working. just not to the elite level.

 

[Nino Noderreiter]

not gonna argue all of this because you really cant with a lot of things going on, however he still has time to sign Fiala. Fiala is a member of the Minnesota Wild, how exactly has he let him walk? sure we can guess that he isnt being resigned but that is not clear cut right now and he could still be worked out. One thing about acquiring players is sometimes it takes draft capital which fletcher showed us plenty. BG wants to build through the draft and not give up picks. that seems to be his plan, build through the draft and patchwork where is needed until the Prospects rise to the occasion. Not the plan anyone wants maybe however it is a plan and currently it is working. just not to the elite level.

That's fair and I'm open to changing my mind because part of the story is still unwritten so to speak. The reason that I am raising concern is because I think the moves that have been made in recent months look like, as we stand today, marginal moves with little upside that make it much more difficult to retain Fiala.

And again I would fundamentally be fine with building through the draft and letting prospects rise to the occasion. I think logically that's what makes some degree of sense given our situation. In my opinion, I haven't seen BG show evidence of a clear strategy or emphasis on developing prospects and an approach that maximizes the amount of data that we can gather to make decisions on who can fill various roles over the next few years. And then situations like the McBain scenario concern me. I understand that McBain may have had demands that aren't the way that BG would prefer to do business but you cannot afford to miss out on potential opportunities to fill key roster spots with guys who have upside to potentially outproduce their ELC's during this period. It is CRUCIAL that we are able to develop & plug in players who are on ELC's that are able to make immediate high-level impacts above expectation (i.e. what Boldy has done).

To me, BG and/or Dean have consistently chosen finding reasons to keep our veteran stopgaps in the lineup when there are opportunities to continue to gather data and give experience to our best near ready prospects that we will likely need playing in the lineup next year (i.e. Addison). BG clearly prefers the idea that veterans offer stability/reliability/certainty over prospects breaking into the NHL who may be more talented but may have to learn things at the NHL level still. That uncomfortablility concerns me if the choices that BG has made thus far have put us in a position where we have to rely on that over the next few years. BG consistently seems to choose the more conservative development option. Ultimately, I believe that creating that kind of environment for rookies (finding reasons to not get them in the lineup and quickly pulling rookies for mistakes) creates an environment that stifles growth rather than empowers growth.

We will see.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Kaprizov was on the same 3 year KHL contract (signed July 2017) the entire time Fenton was GM.

Fenton actually went over to Russia to personally meet with Kaprizov and bring him over.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

That's fair and I'm open to changing my mind because part of the story is still unwritten so to speak. The reason that I am raising concern is because I think the moves that have been made in recent months look like, as we stand today, marginal moves with little upside that make it much more difficult to retain Fiala.

And again I would fundamentally be fine with building through the draft and letting prospects rise to the occasion. I think logically that's what makes some degree of sense given our situation. In my opinion, I haven't seen BG show evidence of a clear strategy or emphasis on developing prospects and an approach that maximizes the amount of data that we can gather to make decisions on who can fill various roles over the next few years. And then situations like the McBain scenario concern me. I understand that McBain may have had demands that aren't the way that BG would prefer to do business but you cannot afford to miss out on potential opportunities to fill key roster spots with guys who have upside to potentially outproduce their ELC's during this period. It is CRUCIAL that we are able to develop & plug in players who are on ELC's that are able to make immediate high-level impacts above expectation (i.e. what Boldy has done).

To me, BG and/or Dean have consistently chosen finding reasons to keep our veteran stopgaps in the lineup when there are opportunities to continue to gather data and give experience to our best near ready prospects that we will likely need playing in the lineup next year (i.e. Addison). BG clearly prefers the idea that veterans offer stability/reliability/certainty over prospects breaking into the NHL who may be more talented but may have to learn things at the NHL level still. That uncomfortablility concerns me if the choices that BG has made thus far have put us in a position where we have to rely on that over the next few years. BG consistently seems to choose the more conservative development option. Ultimately, I believe that creating that kind of environment for rookies (finding reasons to not get them in the lineup and quickly pulling rookies for mistakes) creates an environment that stifles growth rather than empowers growth.

We will see.

As someone who was annoyed Ek was thrust into a 4th line role instead of developing as 1C in iowa, i do not want prospect playing over plugs in their current roles, the plugs that is. i understand Addison is better than our 3rd pairing. completely get that however we want him to become more than that and during the regular season i would rather he play the role we want in iowa and be groomed for that instead of play bottom pairing minutes in minnesota. i fully agree Addison is better than Benn and Merril. The way he has handle Rossi and Addisons development along with Beckman even shows that he wants to develope rather than rush it. Beckman looked great early on this year then in Iowa now he is not even blowing up. He shows patience with prospects and wants them to be properly developed rather than rushed. That is the route i see him taking with this team. a very simple draft and develop and when we are ready he will go shopping with a higher level of willingness to part with high draft picks and prospects.

as far as mcbain goes, he did nothing of note until this year. if at this time last year he was talking about walking most of the people having an issue with it would say meh ok most likely as all he has is size. the ask wouldnt even be a 2nd but right now he is blowing up at BC and thinks he is in the drivers seat in terms of his future. He should not be thrust into the wilds lineup. could he be 4th line? sure but he should not be gifted a spot just based of this year or a one way contract that iirc he was wanting.

 

[thestonedkoala]

sure but he should not be gifted a spot just based of this year or a one way contract that iirc he was wanting.

I mean, have we heard the words, I think I should be on the Wild roster come out of McBain's mouth? Also that one way contract is flat out wrong as he has to take an ELC, which is a 2 way contract.

 

[ThatGuy22]

Fenton actually went over to Russia to personally meet with Kaprizov and bring him over.

So did Fletcher.

Just not before he signed an extension. Fletcher trusted Kaprizov's agent at the time when he said he'd be coming over after his contract. Also tried to meet with him at the WJC before being rebuffed by Team Russia, and had to settle with meeting his girlfriend to give her his draft jersey.

As a GM, you kind of expect that a player's agent knows what's going on. Unfortunately, the one he had at the time apparently had his head up his ass and got canned.

Fenton went after the GM change to ensure Kaprizov the interest was still there, and he was still in the plans. Good on him, but he wasn't the first GM to meet him.

It's not speculation. Fletcher completely ignored Kaprizov. Fenton is the one that started the dialog with Kaprizov. He flew over to Russia to meet with him.

False. You can blame Fletcher for trusting Kaprizov's agent at the time, but he tried to meet with him at the WJC, and flew to Russia in Jan 2018 to meet with him.

Fenton continued the dialogue in November 2018, he didn't start it.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

I mean, have we heard the words, I think I should be on the Wild roster come out of McBain's mouth? Also that one way contract is flat out wrong as he has to take an ELC, which is a 2 way contract.

i dont recall what it actually is that he is wanting. it seems like all speculation and he said she said but nothing has been verbally spoken from mcbains mouth that i can recall. so i do not know exactly what it is he wants.

 

[thestonedkoala]

False. You can blame Fletcher for trusting Kaprizov's agent at the time, but he tried to meet with him at the WJC, and flew to Russia in Jan 2018 to meet with him.

Fenton continued the dialogue in November 2018, he didn't start it.

You can also blame Fletcher for ignoring Kaprizov until the WJC and didn't build up any trust with the current regime. I mean he flew in 2018 - 3 years after they drafted him.

 

[Minnewildsota]

You can also blame Fletcher for ignoring Kaprizov until the WJC and didn't build up any trust with the current regime. I mean he flew in 2018 - 3 years after they drafted him.

Why not blame everybody but Fenton for war in the Middle East. JFC.

 

[ThatGuy22]

You can also blame Fletcher for ignoring Kaprizov until the WJC and didn't build up any trust with the current regime. I mean he flew in 2018 - 3 years after they drafted him.

You're welcome to your opinion on how Fletcher handled it early on.

You're not welcome to your own facts, and Fenton did not make the first trip to Russia to get him on board. Fletcher did with his second agent Milstein. Fenton and BG followed suit in the annual pilgrimage as they should have after changes at the top.

Those are the facts.

 

[thestonedkoala]

You're welcome to your opinion on how Fletcher handled it early on.

You're not welcome to your own facts, and Fenton did not make the first trip to Russia to get him on board. Fletcher did with his second agent Milstein. Fenton and BG followed suit in the annual pilgrimage as they should have after changes at the top.

Those are the facts.

Okay, so Fenton wasn't the first, but the damage was already done by Fletcher's group.

Why not blame everybody but Fenton for war in the Middle East. JFC.

Because Fletcher made some major missteps with the organization that Fenton and Guerin had to clean up like how Fletcher had to clean up Riser's mess when he left. You're also tossing out hyperbole when there are legitimate questions about what Guerin is doing with the roster.

Wasn't everyone singing Guerins praises around here a month ago? Now he's chopped liver?


Anyways, what are the odds the Wild miss the playoffs at this point? I'm starting to think they will miss the post season...??

I mean people were singing praises about Talbot last year, and now he sucks.

Eh, it depends. I blame the scheduling more than anything. We knew this stretch was going to be brutal on the team.

 

[ThatGuy22]

Okay, so Fenton wasn't the first, but the damage was already done by Fletcher's group.

Based on what? The reports following Fletcher's visit were positive, and reset the relationship which was the goal. You're making Fenton into a hero for securing Kaprizov when there is zero evidence of it.

Whatever happened early on between Kaprizov and his original N/A agent, and their communication is what is is. When Kaprizov got Milstein as an Agent, Fletcher approached him to fly over together, meet him and reset. As things had apparently gotten lost in translation before.

There is no evidence Fenton, or BG did anything more than continue that.