Could use a 60 pt RHS which I think he could be with Rossi. But you’re probably right. The extensions strike again
Minnesota Wild General Discussion - 2023-24
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- Nov 7, 2017
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Here's my two cents. Zucc is definitely weaker 5v5 now than he was last season. But if you move him down the lineup, who's the better guy to replace him? There are none, closest to Zucc's even strength production is Foligno, Johansson and Hartman, they all have between 19-22 points.
So then the hierarchy comes into play. Zucc is being paid way more than the other three I mentioned, has a ton of experience, and of course his overall production. 45 points in 47 games, the others aren't anywhere near those numbers.
That's why Zucc stays on the 2nd line, he's still actually on pace for 70 points this season, and now without Kaprizov. If Zucc continues like this next season, at 4 million, he's truly a bargain for the Wild.
I agree about Rossi, now he has to play with two minor league guys who have a combined 9 points this season, and playing less than 10 minutes. This doesn't make sense, and Rossi is picking up points these days. I doubt Hartman will be better than him on the 2nd line. That being said, Hartman did have some success in the past playing with Zuccarello. But maybe it's just the hierarchy again (it's way stronger than you may think), Rossi is a rookie.
So then the hierarchy comes into play. Zucc is being paid way more than the other three I mentioned, has a ton of experience, and of course his overall production. 45 points in 47 games, the others aren't anywhere near those numbers.
That's why Zucc stays on the 2nd line, he's still actually on pace for 70 points this season, and now without Kaprizov. If Zucc continues like this next season, at 4 million, he's truly a bargain for the Wild.
I agree about Rossi, now he has to play with two minor league guys who have a combined 9 points this season, and playing less than 10 minutes. This doesn't make sense, and Rossi is picking up points these days. I doubt Hartman will be better than him on the 2nd line. That being said, Hartman did have some success in the past playing with Zuccarello. But maybe it's just the hierarchy again (it's way stronger than you may think), Rossi is a rookie.
JiricekSaveUs
Danila Yurov Fan Club Executive Assistant
- May 2, 2018
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So the explanations for the demotion of Rossi so far are:
- it's a Hierarchy thing
- Rossi is a Rookie
- try to get other players going
I've played the game back in my days: I always thought HC decisions should be based on performance and output. You gotta earn your spot on the lineup, you gotta earn the ice time you get. If you suck you get demoted. If you play great you move up the lineup OR you get MORE TOI at least. It's that simple.
At the moment, Hynes seems to be using a different approach: One hand he is praising Rossis play onto the media. On the other hand he demotes him on the 4th line playing strictly limited minutes with scrubs ignoring all the facts regarding performance & output.
This could be a very risky approach, because Hynes could lose the locker room easily (if some of them can count). But as long as he is feeding the longterm signed floaters on the team with TOI & top 6 roles, Hynes is going to have a great HC gig.
Rossi should go elsewhere as fast as possible. The handling of him has been afwul but he is still there and the 2nd best rookie forward in the league. Thats a miracle after all he has been through (COVID, Evason, Hynes - Idk which is worse).
- it's a Hierarchy thing
- Rossi is a Rookie
- try to get other players going
I've played the game back in my days: I always thought HC decisions should be based on performance and output. You gotta earn your spot on the lineup, you gotta earn the ice time you get. If you suck you get demoted. If you play great you move up the lineup OR you get MORE TOI at least. It's that simple.
At the moment, Hynes seems to be using a different approach: One hand he is praising Rossis play onto the media. On the other hand he demotes him on the 4th line playing strictly limited minutes with scrubs ignoring all the facts regarding performance & output.
This could be a very risky approach, because Hynes could lose the locker room easily (if some of them can count). But as long as he is feeding the longterm signed floaters on the team with TOI & top 6 roles, Hynes is going to have a great HC gig.
Rossi should go elsewhere as fast as possible. The handling of him has been afwul but he is still there and the 2nd best rookie forward in the league. Thats a miracle after all he has been through (COVID, Evason, Hynes - Idk which is worse).
I wish Spurgeon , Zucc , Foligno , Merril and Johansson were begging for another franchise to play for lol
BagHead
Registered User
This is spot on. It's sometimes hard for the business side and the meritocracy side of hockey to square up completely, and when things are close, the higher paid player is usually the one who plays the higher role.
I think there's still room for Rossi on the 2nd line. Hartman - Rossi - Zuccarello seems like it would have promise, at least enough to give it a trial run. I imagine that the problem with that, though, is that it puts Johansson on the Lettieri - Lucchini line, and that looks bad enough on paper that I don't even want to try it in real life. I don't think Hynes is punishing Rossi, I think he just has shitty options and is trying to maintain the ability to play 12 forwards instead of 9. It sounds like he knows how good Rossi is, and is using that to make a terrible line halfway viable.
Sarcasm on: Yes. Hynes knows how good Rossi is thats why they limit his TOI too by a wide marging. Sarcasm off.
Dr Jan Itor
Registered User
- Dec 10, 2012
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Found this pretty interesting, list of guys Rossi has as many (or more) even strength points as:
Larkin
Zibanejad
Tavares
Kopitar
O'Reilly
Suzuki
Lindholm
Stamkos
Larkin
Zibanejad
Tavares
Kopitar
O'Reilly
Suzuki
Lindholm
Stamkos
- Dec 10, 2012
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Imagine if you told this fanbase a year or two ago that, not only would they now have the two top six centers they've always asked for, but they'd be justifying, and in some cases even advocating for, playing one of those top six centers 12 minutes a night with AHL wingers lol
Wasted Talent
Registered User
- Aug 9, 2011
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Also interesting, list of Wild players with as many (or more) 5v5 points:
BagHead
Registered User
To be clear, that's not what I am doing when I say that I understand why Hynes would want a 4th functional line instead of just 3 of them. Personally, I think they should be giving Rossi that AHLer shift, plus shifts with other lines in order to keep using him to a degree that makes sense.
- Dec 10, 2012
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But it kinda is though, right?
Because here you said you think Rossi should have those fourth line shifts. So you are justifying it and/or advocating for it, even if you think he should be getting bonus shifts as well.
Because I understand what he's doing, and I understand the words that he uses to explain why he's doing it, and I can't reason out how it's a good decision, and I can't sit here and convince myself that Rossi should be spending any time whatsoever with Lettieri and Lucchini while worse players than him are still comfortably locked in on that second line.
From a hockey standpoint there's no way I can sit here and justify that as a competent coach who just wants to win.
If you want to make the case that he's a rookie and not making as much, so he's the de facto guy to demote when nothing else is working, I understand those words too, but it still doesn't make it a good hockey decision, and it still doesn't speak to Hynes as a competent coach that wants to win NHL games.
BagHead
Registered User
No, it is not. I'm not advocating playing him in the bottom-6, like that's where he belongs. It's the nuance of needing to put him on that line vs. wanting to put him on that line. I don't want him there. The Wild need him there. The only way to make a Lettieri - Lucchini line even halfway-viable in the NHL is to put them with a really good player, be it Rossi, JEE, Boldy, or Kaprizov (this is the exhaustive list of Wild players that I think can boost that line to a playable level). I'm also saying that player, Rossi, in this case, should be picking up additional shifts with actual NHL talent, as well. Hyne's hasn't been doing that, though, and that's where I think his error lies.
I've already addressed the problem that occurs with putting Johansson or Zuccarello on that line - it almost certainly becomes unplayable. Maybe Hartman could make it work, as a strictly fast-paced grinding line with poor offense and mediocre defense? I'm not sure.
The options Hynes has with this current roster are:
- Break up Lettieri - Lucchini. This results in either just rearranging the deck chairs in the bottom-6, or elevating a bottom-6 player to the top-6.
- Put an actually good player on Lettieri-Lucchini's line in an effort to make it playable.
- Play with only 3 lines.
Dr Jan Itor
Registered User
Kap - Ek - Boldy
Johansson - Gaudreau - Zuccarello
Lucchini - Rossi - Hartman
Duhaime - Dewar - Lettieri
Yes, Lucchini is very much out of place on that line, but it is what it is.
Johansson - Gaudreau - Zuccarello
Lucchini - Rossi - Hartman
Duhaime - Dewar - Lettieri
Yes, Lucchini is very much out of place on that line, but it is what it is.
- Dec 10, 2012
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Understand, when you tell people you're not advocating for or justifying it, and then you spend multiple posts explaining why it "needs" to be the case, there may be some confusion as to whether you actually are advocating for, and justifying it.
In this case, you are, at the very least, justifying it while simultaneously telling me you're not doing that.
BagHead
Registered User
Option 1, hey? Looks as bad as I imagined. There really are no good options right now.
You're right, I'm saying Rossi is a 3rd liner and should get no shifts with the top lines. You're not misrepresenting me at all. Cool. Glad that's clear.
- Dec 10, 2012
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You have taken the time to try to explain that putting Rossi on the fourth line with Lettieri and Lucchini is the correct move. Have you not?
Dr Jan Itor
Registered User
Top line
Mojo-Rossi-Letteiri
Duhaime-Hartman-Zucc
Lucchini-Dewar-Freddy
if you want to spread out the lines, that’s fine but count me as one of those who agree it makes zero sense to leave Rossi on an island.
How does Zucc get the better even-strength TOI & linemates when he not only isn’t producing, but often times isn’t even competing?
Mojo-Rossi-Letteiri
Duhaime-Hartman-Zucc
Lucchini-Dewar-Freddy
if you want to spread out the lines, that’s fine but count me as one of those who agree it makes zero sense to leave Rossi on an island.
How does Zucc get the better even-strength TOI & linemates when he not only isn’t producing, but often times isn’t even competing?
BagHead
Registered User
The correct move? Shit, I don't know if there is a the correct move when the options are this bad. The point of my posts have been that Hynes wants to make that 4th line viable, and that there's logic to how he's going about it (never minding why Rossi is the one stuck in that situation). Apparently some around here (and Hynes) can't understand that a player doesn't just have to play the line he's slotted into on paper, though. I feel like that isn't hard to understand, and yet I also feel like people are reading 'The fourth line needs Rossi right now' and stopping there when the full context is 'The fourth line needs Rossi right now, but Rossi should also get shifts on higher lines because he's a good player'.
Is that a better option? I honestly don't know. I think they're all terrible options, but I'm open to trying it. I'm not the coach, though.
- Dec 10, 2012
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I generally believe spreading out the talent too much is a detriment to every line. But if your goal is to create more balanced lines, spreading out the good players, it makes more sense to break up the top line than to move Rossi to the fourth line:
Kaprizov-Ek-Johansson
Gaudreau-Rossi-Boldy
Zuccarello-Hartman-Lettieri
Duhaime-Dewar-Lucchini
Each line has two guys who can play at that line's level, and one that can't.
If you're hell bent on keeping the top line together a little bit longer:
Kaprizov-Ek-Boldy
Zuccarello-Rossi-Hartman
Duhaime-Dewar-Lettieri
Johansson-Gaudreau-Lucchini
There's clear demarcation between the top six and bottom six, L+L are split up, Rossi has the tools to create the best second line we can given the situation. Third line is a little weak but it's just the third line and you have a stronger top six to make up for it.
Compared to what we're doing:
Kaprizov-Ek-Boldy
Johansson-Hartman-Zuccarello
Duhaime-Dewar-Gaudreau
Lucchini-Rossi-Lettieri
Where you have three lines where you're simply hoping they don't get scored on too much. Any offense is an entirely unexpected bonus. And one first line.
Kaprizov-Ek-Johansson
Gaudreau-Rossi-Boldy
Zuccarello-Hartman-Lettieri
Duhaime-Dewar-Lucchini
Each line has two guys who can play at that line's level, and one that can't.
If you're hell bent on keeping the top line together a little bit longer:
Kaprizov-Ek-Boldy
Zuccarello-Rossi-Hartman
Duhaime-Dewar-Lettieri
Johansson-Gaudreau-Lucchini
There's clear demarcation between the top six and bottom six, L+L are split up, Rossi has the tools to create the best second line we can given the situation. Third line is a little weak but it's just the third line and you have a stronger top six to make up for it.
Compared to what we're doing:
Kaprizov-Ek-Boldy
Johansson-Hartman-Zuccarello
Duhaime-Dewar-Gaudreau
Lucchini-Rossi-Lettieri
Where you have three lines where you're simply hoping they don't get scored on too much. Any offense is an entirely unexpected bonus. And one first line.
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