Minnesota Wild General Discussion - 2023-24

[57special]

He’s like a politician campaigning for his first term at that point. Says what everyone wants to hear and then proceeds to do the exact opposite for 4 straight years.

The way he has it set up I think he doesn't expect to be held accountable till 2025-26 at the earliest, and even then he will say that they are just starting to play with a full deck, and will need a couple of more years(2028?).
I hope that Leipold is not that patient, and will consider firing him well before that unless he starts to pull some rabbits out hats. Yurov would've been one, but BG seems very casual about leaving him in Russia for another year, again, as if he has all the time in the world.

 

[NHL1674]

The way he has it set up I think he doesn't expect to be held accountable till 2025-26 at the earliest, and even then he will say that they are just starting to play with a full deck, and will need a couple of more years(2028?).
I hope that Leipold is not that patient, and will consider firing him well before that unless he starts to pull some rabbits out hats. Yurov would've been one, but BG seems very casual about leaving him in Russia for another year, again, as if he has all the time in the world.

If I'm Leipold, I wouldn't be giving him that long of a leash (2028) considering he's wasting Kaprizov's prime.

 

[AKL]

If I'm Leipold, I wouldn't be giving him that long of a leash (2028) considering he's wasting Kaprizov's prime.

I think if Kaprizov leaves, Guerin goes with him, and if Kaprizov stays, it buys Guerin a couple more years

 

[JiricekSaveUs]

Guerin is certainly safe right now but the clock can start to tick real fast on GMs, especially ones in their second coach hire

 

[Circulartheory]

I don't think I expected him to admit in public that he made a mistake re-signing Foligno, Gaudreau, Hartman and Zucc(Middleton and Goligoski too, for that matter) so early, and with NMC's or NTC's, but I sure do hope that he admits it to himself in private.

His "plan" is pretty helter skelter. Best as I can figure, it's buy out Suter and Parise, and tread water till the cap penalties are done, doing things that will make the fans keep buying tickets, while he keeps his job. Don't ask me what loading up on mediocre veterans and coaches who have never won anything is about.

I know that this sounds really negative, but my overall view of BG is more nuanced. I like that he has held onto draft picks, drafted fairly well, and built up the prospect pool. I like the Brackett hire, and the organization seems to be fairly well run, when he uses consensus to make decisions. What worries me is his impulsiveness, and his seeming inability to understand that aging hockey players are declining hockey players. I also have no clue what the HR incidents that both he and his main assistant were about - after getting rid of a toxic personality like Fenton who seemingly had no management/people skills, it was disturbing to hear that we might have another potential loose cannon leading the team.

Exactly for me too.

I started the season with a 7/10 rating opinion of him because of how the prospect pool was rebuilt despite not having many high picks. It wasn't too long ago Colton Gillies and Marco Scandella were our top 3 prospects. And you all know I'm a prospect/draft type of fan.

But this season really opened my eyes on his ... I woudn't say impulsiveness ... but he's an "emotions" guy. If it feels right. I know tons of those types of people in real life - they do great when the stars align because they are ready to pull the trigger and make confident decisions, but they need a partner to tone things down when things need a bit of nuance. In hockey terms, he needs a numbers guy GM (maybe I'm bringing too much personal stuff here bc that was me with a "creative" friend). Signs doesn't look when that guy (O'Hearn) gets fired midseason.

So at this point, I won't forget how our prospect pool has been rebuilt but I don't see him more than a 5/10 average GM after some of his emotional decisions. He'll only ever be more with O'Hearns replacement, who better be good.

 

[thestonedkoala]

I know that this sounds really negative, but my overall view of BG is more nuanced. I like that he has held onto draft picks, drafted fairly well, and built up the prospect pool. I like the Brackett hire, and the organization seems to be fairly well run, when he uses consensus to make decisions. What worries me is his impulsiveness, and his seeming inability to understand that aging hockey players are declining hockey players. I also have no clue what the HR incidents that both he and his main assistant were about - after getting rid of a toxic personality like Fenton who seemingly had no management/people skills, it was disturbing to hear that we might have another potential loose cannon leading the team.

I think Brackett is resting on reputation more than results. He's been director of scouting since 2020, but started with the 2021 draft and the results have been mediocre at best:

Wallstedt was a slam dunk pick, Lambos looks lost, they traded Pillar, Peart, Masters and Bankier are meh at best. Ohgren, from reports, looks like a Johansson clone - hopefully without the streakiness. Yurov, another slam dunk pick. Haight looks good, but fans are worried about his lack of production. Lorenz is...lost somewhere. Milne was an overeager that may turn out to be another Duhaime. Okay. Healey and Spacek (another over-ager) is meh. Too early to tell with 2023, but he makes one slam dunk pick (Wallstedt, Yurov) and selects overagers/guys that have low ceilings.

I'm not convinced yet that Brackett is some genius scout.

With that said, Iowa is a mess still.

 

[MuckOG]

I think Brackett is resting on reputation more than results. He's been director of scouting since 2020, but started with the 2021 draft and the results have been mediocre at best:

Wallstedt was a slam dunk pick, Lambos looks lost, they traded Pillar, Peart, Masters and Bankier are meh at best. Ohgren, from reports, looks like a Johansson clone - hopefully without the streakiness. Yurov, another slam dunk pick. Haight looks good, but fans are worried about his lack of production. Lorenz is...lost somewhere. Milne was an overeager that may turn out to be another Duhaime. Okay. Healey and Spacek (another over-ager) is meh. Too early to tell with 2023, but he makes one slam dunk pick (Wallstedt, Yurov) and selects overagers/guys that have low ceilings.

I'm not convinced yet that Brackett is some genius scout.

With that said, Iowa is a mess still.

I haven't watched a lot of Denver hockey this season, but judging purely by his stats, Lorenz seems to be having a pretty good year, at least a better sophomore season than his freshman year. Healy is attracting some attention as well.

Most players picked in the later rounds (3-7) don't end up becoming NHLers, and the ones that do typically are role players on the 3rd and 4th lines. It's rare for these guys to turn into anything special, and that's not unique to Minnesota, it's league wide.

You didn't mention Rossi, which was a Brackett pick. Also Heidt.

I'm not faulting him for Stramel, because it sounds like Guerin made the decision to draft for need instead of BPA.

As of right now, I would give Brackett an "incomplete" because most of the guys he picked are still fairly early in their careers, I will wait another year or two before I form a solid opinion on Brackett.

 

[thestonedkoala]

I haven't watched a lot of Denver hockey this season, but judging purely by his stats, Lorenz seems to be having a pretty good year, at least a better sophomore season than his freshman year. Healy is attracting some attention as well.

Most players picked in the later rounds (3-7) don't end up becoming NHLers, and the ones that do typically are role players on the 3rd and 4th lines. It's rare for these guys to turn into anything special, and that's not unique to Minnesota, it's league wide.

You didn't mention Rossi, which was a Brackett pick. Also Heidt.

I'm not faulting him for Stramel, because it sounds like Guerin made the decision to draft for need instead of BPA.

As of right now, I would give Brackett an "incomplete" because most of the guys he picked are still fairly early in their careers, I will wait another year or two before I form a solid opinion on Brackett.

Forgot that the 2020 draft was moved to October. So, Rossi falls in the slam dunk pick. Heidt is the other. He's had four guys that have dropped that would be a slam dunk pick for any team: Rossi in 2020, Wallstedt in 2021, Yurov in 2022 and Heidt in 2023.

The issue isn't that players picked in the later round end up becoming NHLers, a lot of them make up the bulk of the AHL and become 'tweeners. Not good enough in the NHL, but pretty damn good in the AHL.

He's had 4 drafts and so far his 2020 draft looks - meh. Khusnutdinov may end up being okay, Novak had injuries to say the least but I expected a LOT more out of O'Rourke and a bit more out of Hunt.

His drafts with the Canucks aren't that great either. Again a lot of hype and not a lot of substance.

 

[Minnewildsota]

Forgot that the 2020 draft was moved to October. So, Rossi falls in the slam dunk pick. Heidt is the other. He's had four guys that have dropped that would be a slam dunk pick for any team: Rossi in 2020, Wallstedt in 2021, Yurov in 2022 and Heidt in 2023.

The issue isn't that players picked in the later round end up becoming NHLers, a lot of them make up the bulk of the AHL and become 'tweeners. Not good enough in the NHL, but pretty damn good in the AHL.

He's had 4 drafts and so far his 2020 draft looks - meh. Khusnutdinov may end up being okay, Novak had injuries to say the least but I expected a LOT more out of O'Rourke and a bit more out of Hunt.

lol I always enjoy your logic. Players that have done well? Oh those were slam dunk picks. No need to give credit.
A pick didn't turn out as hope? Well, that's just poor drafting.

You forget that with Wallstadt, Rossi, and Heidt that there were numerous other teams that could have drafted any of them.

They identified Wallstadt as an elite talent, they could have targeted Cossa and tried to move up for him.

Not to mention, drafting Kump before Heidt could be seen as a pretty shrewd move, if they thought Kump would be drafted before pick #64, when they took Heidt.

 

[TaLoN]

It wasn't too long ago Colton Gillies and Marco Scandella were our top 3 prospects.

That was 3 GMs ago... so that was quite a long time ago actually.

 

[thestonedkoala]

lol I always enjoy your logic. Players that have done well? Oh those were slam dunk picks. No need to give credit.
A pick didn't turn out as hope? Well, that's just poor drafting.

You forget that with Wallstadt, Rossi, and Heidt that there were numerous other teams that could have drafted any of them.

They identified Wallstadt as an elite talent, they could have targeted Cossa and tried to move up for him.

Not to mention, drafting Kump before Heidt could be seen as a pretty shrewd move, if they thought Kump would be drafted before pick #64, when they took Heidt.

Rossi was considered a top prospect and was mocked around the top 5. Wallstedt was considered at least a top 10 pick and most were surprised that Detroit went with Cossa over Wallstedt. Yurov was also considered a top 10 pick, but politics came into play and he dropped. Heidt, even Brackett mentioned his surprise that Heidt was still there at the end of the second round.

The biggest issues that teams get into is locking onto one player and doing everything to secure that one player. Minnesota did well because they didn't either a) give up the farm to secure one player or b) let the board fall the way it falls, but that isn't necessarily on scouting, which is Brackett's job. He can make recommendations, but I haven't heard of him pushing or making a move to secure a player like they did with Kaprizov.

If they knew these players were so good, why didn't they move up the draft to secure them when they started dropping? Like the scouts knew these guys were talented and had the skills to translate to the NHL given the right conditions (that's where development comes in), but those conditions may not be the right ones for that team.

I don't give a lot of credit for Haula either, because at that point Haula was the best prospect taken where he was taken. It was kind of a slam dunk pick at that point.

I give a ton of credit for taking guys like Stoner, Seeler, Kaprizov, Duhaime, Dewar, Soucy - guys that were later round picks that turned out good, that most scouts had lower grades or no grades at all on.

With that said, Brackett's grade is still incomplete. I want to see what Kumps, Khus, Lorenz and Heidt do in the NHL as forwards, if they make it, and I want to see if O'Rourke and Hunt can be anything more than depth guys.

Brackett is resting now more on his reputation than his laurels. What picks with Vancouver outside the 1st round did he really hit on? Hogslander? Gadjovich?

 

[Wabit]

That was 3 GMs ago... so that was quite a long time ago actually.

'07 and '08 drafts. Kids born in those years are driving age now. So I agree that was a long time ago.

 

[Minnewildsota]

Rossi was considered a top prospect and was mocked around the top 5. Wallstedt was considered at least a top 10 pick and most were surprised that Detroit went with Cossa over Wallstedt. Yurov was also considered a top 10 pick, but politics came into play and he dropped. Heidt, even Brackett mentioned his surprise that Heidt was still there at the end of the second round.

The biggest issues that teams get into is locking onto one player and doing everything to secure that one player. Minnesota did well because they didn't either a) give up the farm to secure one player or b) let the board fall the way it falls, but that isn't necessarily on scouting, which is Brackett's job. He can make recommendations, but I haven't heard of him pushing or making a move to secure a player like they did with Kaprizov.

If they knew these players were so good, why didn't they move up the draft to secure them when they started dropping? Like the scouts knew these guys were talented and had the skills to translate to the NHL given the right conditions (that's where development comes in), but those conditions may not be the right ones for that team.

I don't give a lot of credit for Haula either, because at that point Haula was the best prospect taken where he was taken. It was kind of a slam dunk pick at that point.

I give a ton of credit for taking guys like Stoner, Seeler, Kaprizov, Duhaime, Dewar, Soucy - guys that were later round picks that turned out good, that most scouts had lower grades or no grades at all on.

With that said, Brackett's grade is still incomplete. I want to see what Kumps, Khus, Lorenz and Heidt do in the NHL as forwards, if they make it, and I want to see if O'Rourke and Hunt can be anything more than depth guys.

Brackett is resting now more on his reputation than his laurels. What picks with Vancouver outside the 1st round did he really hit on? Hogslander? Gadjovich?

Why would they trade up for players that are falling? That logic simply doesn't make sense.

Erik Haula was a slam dunk pick in round 7? I guess we have different definitions of slam dunk.

You also fail to mention the likes of players that, IMHO, are exceeding their expecations so far: Haight, Milne, Spacek, Lorenz, and Bankier

 

[thestonedkoala]

Why would they trade up for players that are falling? That logic simply doesn't make sense.

Erik Haula was a slam dunk pick in round 7? I guess we have different definitions of slam dunk.

You also fail to mention the likes of players that, IMHO, are exceeding their expecations so far: Haight, Milne, Spacek, Lorenz, and Bankier

You're saying to give credit to the scouts, but they let the chips fall where they fell without doing too much maneuvering.

Haula was absolutely a slam dunk pick. He was ranked in the top 60 prospects. You take a flyer on a kid that low in the draft.

How is Haight, Lorenz and Bankier exceeding their expectations? Spacek and Milne as well? Both Spacek and Milne were also overage picks - which means they waited until the next season to be picked after a LOT more scouting was put into their selection. Both Milne and Spacek were seen as top overage prospects that were seen to be drafted since they had developed a bit more. I'd give more credit to the scouts if they had selected Milne and Spacek and they were playing in the AHL they were.

 

[north21]

Just think of all the slam dunk picks that have failed. 7th rounders too!

 

[Minnewildsota]

You're saying to give credit to the scouts, but they let the chips fall where they fell without doing too much maneuvering.

Haula was absolutely a slam dunk pick. He was ranked in the top 60 prospects. You take a flyer on a kid that low in the draft.

How is Haight, Lorenz and Bankier exceeding their expectations? Spacek and Milne as well? Both Spacek and Milne were also overage picks - which means they waited until the next season to be picked after a LOT more scouting was put into their selection. Both Milne and Spacek were seen as top overage prospects that were seen to be drafted since they had developed a bit more. I'd give more credit to the scouts if they had selected Milne and Spacek and they were playing in the AHL they were.

Yeah, most scouts/GMs do this because you only have so much draft capital.

If he were such a slam dunk pick (top 60), why did Haula fall to the 7th round? Surely if he were a slam dunk, he would have gone in the first or second round.

I say exceeding expectations because, as expected, the keep improving each year but I feel most of them have made larger improvements than their trajectory would have predicted. I'm not saying they're shoe-ins for anything.

So you expected Milne and Spacek to be doing what they're currently doing in the AHL? If so, what should we expect from them, or any prospect you wish to delve into, next year?

 

[Wabit]

The GM should get the credit for Wallstedt. Trading up in the 1st round to take a friggin goalie is a ballsy move.

Also to note Faber was picked 45th, MN passed on him twice and took Marat K (37) and ROR (39) instead.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

No pick outside of the top 5 (and sometimes only the top 2 or 3) is a slam dunk pick.

 

[Minnewildsota]

I also want to point out Novak didn't have "injuries" - he had f'in cancer.

 

[Wabit]

No pick outside of the top 5 (and sometimes only the top 2 or 3) is a slam dunk pick.

Sometimes not even then (2012 draft)...

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Sometimes not even then (2012 draft)...

I remember when Yakupov was "Bure-esque".

 

[thestonedkoala]

If he were such a slam dunk pick (top 60), why did Haula fall to the 7th round? Surely if he were a slam dunk, he would have gone in the first or second round.

I say exceeding expectations because, as expected, the keep improving each year but I feel most of them have made larger improvements than their trajectory would have predicted. I'm not saying they're shoe-ins for anything.

So you expected Milne and Spacek to be doing what they're currently doing in the AHL? If so, what should we expect from them, or any prospect you wish to delve into, next year?

Actually, no one really knows why Haula dropped that far. Warren was another that was considered a top 60 that dropped, but the reason was more known.

And you're missing the trees for the forest here and you're focused on the wrong thing. If they picked another prospect who no one in the scouting industry knew over Haula, and that prospect did better than Haula, then that's great scouting. But if they skipped Haula for another prospect that turned out to be crap and you keep doing that, then that's terrible scouting.

Like if you keep picking guys like Bussieres or Gillies or Stramel (hopefully he develops) and they bust, then you go that's a bad scout. Which is why ultimately Risebrough got fired and why our prospect depth was so terrible.

What was their trajectory?

What is Milne and Spacek doing in the AHL? Spacek has 8 points and is a -10, which actually doesn't say much because the team is a disaster. But the fact he was sent down to the ECHL said much more than anything about his development. Milne is injured, so there isn't much to expect from him.

I'd expect Spacek and Milne to challenge a call up or two next season, especially Milne. Which is what I expected O'Rourke to do this year. (Hunt is at least meeting those expectations).

I also want to point out Novak didn't have "injuries" - he had f'in cancer.

I'm aware, which is why I put 'injury' in quotations because to the NHL it is a LTIR. They don't have a cancer designation.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

224 players are drafted every year.

There aren't 224 new players in the NHL every year.

A lot of those drafted players aren't amounting to much, and that's not just on us (or Brackett).

Probably shouldn't need to be said, but here we are.

 

[MuckOG]

224 players are drafted every year.

There aren't 224 new players in the NHL every year.

A lot of those drafted players aren't amounting to much, and that's not just on us (or Brackett).

Probably shouldn't need to be said, but here we are.

Just to piggy back on this a little, there are only 38 players from 2018 draft that played 100+ games in the NHL. 2015 has one of the deepest draft classes in recent history, only 72 players have reached the 100 game mark. 2014 had 65 players reach that number.

Expecting much of anything out of late round draft picks is an exercise in futility.

 

[Wonderful Tacos]

Russo saying marat got his work visa and flying to minnesota arriving tomorrow night. Not coming on this little 2 game road trip it sounds like - didnt think it was likely but think it was technically possible to get him to arizona and gas him up on caffeine before the game lol.

So the game on the 10th at home vs the preds is prob first time he plays i suppose