Mike Bossy vs Pavel Bure who's the better goal scorer all time?

[Sentinel]

Bure had his two highest scoring seasons in a high scoring era.

1999-2000:
Bure: 59 goals
Nolan: 44 goals
Amonte 43 goals

2000-2001:
Bure: 59 goals
Sakic: 54 goals
Jagr: 52 goals

 

[MadLuke]

Bure had his two highest scoring seasons in a high scoring era.

This just show how much it is impossible to make law about misinformation, most of them are a factually correct sentence like this.
60 is indeed higher than 59 and 58, even if it is scored during a 84 games season and 2000-2001 were really low scoring 82 games seasons.

But incredibly misleading.

Which is why he never touched Gretzky's single season totals

85 in 76 or 69 in 60 is not that far apart than 92 in 80 and 87 in 74, obviously lower, but you can stretch your finger and kind of touch it.

Lemieux scored 52 playoff goals during his first 60 playoff games (23-27 years old), 22-24 Gretzky (what look his best playoff goal scoring stretch) it was 47 goals in 58 game played, not sure we should act has if Lemieux peak was not touching Gretzky goal scoring here.

NHL Stats

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most gpg in a season since 1980, at least 40 games played

Gretzky: 1.18
Gretzky: 1.15
Lemieux: 1.15
Lemieux: 1.12
Hull: 1.10
Neely: 1.02
Mogilny: .99

If Lemieux play 83 games in 1993 and score 93 goals, does it change in any way how good he was at scoring goals ?

 

[JianYang]

Bossy was a straight up assassin for goal scoring.

Bure was more explosive and made for highlight reels.

For goal scoring and goal scoring only, I think you have to go with bossy. He's in extremely rarified air for his ability to score goals.

 

[Gorskyontario]

1999-2000:
Bure: 59 goals
Nolan: 44 goals
Amonte 43 goals

2000-2001:
Bure: 59 goals
Sakic: 54 goals
Jagr: 52 goals

Those aren't his two highest scoring seasons.

This just show how much it is impossible to make law about misinformation, most of them are a factually correct sentence like this.
60 is indeed higher than 59 and 58, even if it is scored during a 84 games season and 2000-2001 were really low scoring 82 games seasons.

I look at the stats and I don't make excuses.

 

[67 others]

Not really sure of that premise, as the older generation that played in 4x-50-70 games season in a very low scoring NHL could benefit from some adjusted stats,

Of the top 50 leaders in non-adjusted goals, 9 started to play before 1970, adjusted you go up to 11.

Howe get a boost over a recent generation like Gretzky, Richard goes from #33 to #11.

Its still hypothetical adjustments that doesn't take into account that certain player styles would have adjusted well to any era and may not fit with a significant reduction.
The man shot 21% his entire career. Would that be less today? probably, but not much. He wasn't flashy or physical. He just had an uncanny ability to find seams and laser it home, while taking back alley mugging levels of cross checks to the back and levels physical abuse not seen today. Tough as nails, just not one to drop the gloves. He was also an excellent back checker.

I mean, you are willing to point out that Lemieux age 23-27 scored 52 goals in his first 60 playoff games to compare him to Gretzky age 22-24 scoring 47 in 58 games . Why is it so hard for you to also point out that Bossy scored 51 goals in 56 playoff games over 3 years at age 21-23?

 

[MadLuke]

I mean, you are willing to point out that Lemieux age 23-27 scored 52 goals in his first 60 playoff games to compare him to Gretzky age 22-24 scoring 47 in 58 games . Why is it so hard for you to also point out that Bossy scored 51 goals in 56 playoff games over 3 years at age 21-23?

This was 2 different conversation...... (not sure why there wsa a Lemieux vs Gretzky talk in this thread but that what I was responding too)

If you look at my previous message about Bossy;

All-time as said just above, consistency with similar peak, unfair or not, make it really easy to give it to Bossy. he won 4 cups scoring 61 goals in 72 games.

Its still hypothetical adjustments that doesn't take into account that certain player styles would have adjusted well to any era and may not fit with a significant reduction.

100% true, but that really not what adjustment try to do too, when you adjust for inflation the price of a Model T, it is not saying that how much it would cost now in the market (or to make)

 

[KevinRedkey]

Maybe at their absolute peak, it could be Bure - but Bossy did it consistently for way longer.

Voted Bossy quite easily.

 

[Gorskyontario]

This was 2 different conversation...... (not sure why there wsa a Lemieux vs Gretzky talk in this thread but that what I was responding too)

If you look at my previous message about Bossy;

All-time as said just above, consistency with similar peak, unfair or not, make it really easy to give it to Bossy. he won 4 cups scoring 61 goals in 72 games.


100% true, but that really not what adjustment try to do too, when you adjust for inflation the price of a Model T, it is not saying that how much it would cost now in the market (or to make)

Mike Bossy has more 60 goal seasons than Bure has 50 goal seasons.

1999-2000:
Bure: 59 goals
Nolan: 44 goals
Amonte 43 goals

2000-2001:
Bure: 59 goals
Sakic: 54 goals
Jagr: 52 goals

Mike Bossy has as many 50+ goal seasons, as Bure has 20+ goal seasons.

 

[Sentinel]

Mike Bossy has more 60 goal seasons than Bure has 50 goal seasons.



Mike Bossy has as many 50+ goal seasons, as Bure has 20+ goal seasons.

It's called 1980s vs. 1990s.

 

[MadLuke]

It's called 1980s vs. 1990s.

In Bure case it is called really bad knee injuries...

Maybe Bure has "only" 5 x 50 goals season, Bure played 70 or more games in his career.... 5 times.

 

[Gorskyontario]

It's called 1980s vs. 1990s.

The early 90s were high scoring(where Bure has 2x 60 goal seasons).

In Bure case it is called really bad knee injuries...

Maybe Bure has "only" 5 50 goals season, Bure played 70 or more games in his career.... 5 times.

So why are Bossy's goals per game so much higher then?

 

[MadLuke]

The early 90s were high scoring(where Bure has 2x 60 goal seasons).

Yes Bure outside its rookie season played in 2 high scoring season, 93 and 94, he scored 60 goals both time, his next healthy season was in the dpe in 1998.

60 goals even then was really good, that was the Rocket winning season of 1994.

So why are Bossy's goals per game so much higher then?

I really do not like using league wide goal per games, but if we use it as a gross reference, weighted by how many games they played * that season gpg and make it an average it would look like.

Bossy

season	age	games	gpg	goals	league gpg	weighted
1977-78	21​	73​	0.73​	53​	3.30​	240.9​
1978-79	22​	80​	0.86​	69​	3.50​	280​
1979-80	23​	75​	0.68​	51​	3.51​	263.25​
1980-81	24​	79​	0.86​	68​	3.84​	303.36​
1981-82	25​	80​	0.80​	64​	4.01​	320.8​
1982-83	26​	79​	0.76​	60​	3.86​	304.94​
1983-84	27​	67​	0.76​	51​	3.94​	263.98​
1984-85	28​	76​	0.76​	58​	3.89​	295.64​
1985-86	29​	80​	0.76​	61​	3.97​	317.6​
1986-87	30​	63​	0.60​	38​	3.67​	231.21​
Average	25.5​	752​	0.76​	573​	3.75​	2821.68​

At the bottom we see that the games Bossy played in his career the league team gpg was in average 3.75

Outside 92-93, I think all Bossy season were pretty much highest scoring in the modern nhl.

Bure in comparison

season	age	games	gpg	goals	league gpg	weighted
1991-92	20	65	0.52	34	3.48	226.20
1992-93	21	83	0.72	60	3.63	301.29
1993-94	22	76	0.79	60	3.24	246.24
1994-95	23	44	0.45	20	2.99	131.56
1995-96	24	15	0.40	6	3.14	47.10
1996-97	25	63	0.37	23	2.92	183.96
1997-98	26	82	0.62	51	2.64	216.48
1998-99	27	11	1.18	13	2.63	28.93
1999-00	28	74	0.78	58	2.75	203.50
2000-01	29	82	0.72	59	2.76	226.32
2001-02	30	68	0.50	34	2.62	178.16
2002-03	31	39	0.49	19	2.65	103.35
average		702	0.62	437	2.98	2093.09

Bure played in his career the league team gpg was in average 2.98 vs 3.75, or teams in the games Bure played scored at 79.5% the rate of Bossy league, while Bure scored at 81.5% the rate of Bossy during their respective career, in terms of relative to global scoring they were virtually the same.

This is obviously very rough, scoring distribution and when talking scoring talent, ice time and dedication at things that are not scoring goals, Florida Bure look better than peak pre-injury Bure in Vancouver "adjusted", while he did not become necessarily better at scoring goals, maybe he had more ice times on teams that were going nowhere outside of him scoring goals and dedicated less energy to defense and took more risk trying to score (playing higher and what not) as it was their only chance to win.

This is just a rough idea that we cannot just really plug gpg of someone that played int he 1978-1987 league with someone that played significant part of their career when 45 goals could put you in the Rocket race type of environment.

If you look at a method I prefer, how they scored versus elite Canadian scorer in the league, here again there is no Bossy > Bure.

fullName	count(season)	totalGamesPlayed	TotalAdjGoals	averageSeason	adjGPG
Maurice Richard	18	978	968	53.8	0.99
Alex Ovechkin	16	1197	1146	71.6	0.96
Mario Lemieux	17	915	820	48.2	0.9
Pavel Bure	12	702	627	52.3	0.89
Bobby Hull	16	1063	932	58.2	0.88
Steven Stamkos	13	841	705	54.2	0.84
Mike Bossy	10	752	625	62.5	0.83
Brett Hull	19	1269	983	51.7	0.77
Gordie Howe	26	1767	1338	51.5	0.76
Bernie Geoffrion	16	883	675	42.2	0.76

When it come to a Bure vs Bossy goalscoring conversation, numbers do not help us here, longevity does not help us that much either way, international pre-nhl play, scoring in the playoff when they had the opportunity to do so, eye test etc... they match really well, there is not much magic end of conversation argument one can use.

Bure did lead the league one more time than Bossy, but Bossy had a second place to a 92 goal Gretzky scoring 64 of them, thats not fair.
Bossy scored in the playoff more often than Bure, had way more occasion to do it as well.

All time greatest scorer, I would and easily put Bossy above Bure, he did so many time in a row in the playoff, when you look his game against strong defense-high intensity, regular season against the good defense + playoff + best on best tourney, his scoring is not far from prime Gretzky at all, which make him probably not far from anyone at all. He did it more often, he did in a row, you search tiebreaker and those are good, it is a clear even if not by a lot Bossy > Bure all-time historic goal scorer.

Who was better to score a goal at hockey, pick what you prefer / could depend on the team need, if I am the Islanders surrounded with talent trying to win 5 cups in a row, give me Bossy, team Russia in a short tourney, the Panthers, 94 Canucks, not sure at all Bossy score more goals and can see a Bure argument easily.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Yes Bure outside its rookie season played in 2 high scoring season, 93 and 94, he scored 60 goals both time, his next healthy season was in the dpe in 1998.

60 goals even then was really good, that was the Rocket winning season of 1994.


I really do not like using league wide goal per games, but if we use it as a gross reference, weighted by how many games they played * that season gpg and make it an average it would look like.

Bossy

season	age	games	gpg	goals	league gpg	weighted
1977-78	21​	73​	0.73​	53​	3.30​	240.9​
1978-79	22​	80​	0.86​	69​	3.50​	280​
1979-80	23​	75​	0.68​	51​	3.51​	263.25​
1980-81	24​	79​	0.86​	68​	3.84​	303.36​
1981-82	25​	80​	0.80​	64​	4.01​	320.8​
1982-83	26​	79​	0.76​	60​	3.86​	304.94​
1983-84	27​	67​	0.76​	51​	3.94​	263.98​
1984-85	28​	76​	0.76​	58​	3.89​	295.64​
1985-86	29​	80​	0.76​	61​	3.97​	317.6​
1986-87	30​	63​	0.60​	38​	3.67​	231.21​
Average	25.5​	752​	0.76​	573​	3.75​	2821.68​

At the bottom we see that the games Bossy played in his career the league team gpg was in average 3.75

Outside 92-93, I think all Bossy season were pretty much highest scoring in the modern nhl.

Bure in comparison

season	age	games	gpg	goals	league gpg	weighted
1991-92	20	65	0.52	34	3.48	226.20
1992-93	21	83	0.72	60	3.63	301.29
1993-94	22	76	0.79	60	3.24	246.24
1994-95	23	44	0.45	20	2.99	131.56
1995-96	24	15	0.40	6	3.14	47.10
1996-97	25	63	0.37	23	2.92	183.96
1997-98	26	82	0.62	51	2.64	216.48
1998-99	27	11	1.18	13	2.63	28.93
1999-00	28	74	0.78	58	2.75	203.50
2000-01	29	82	0.72	59	2.76	226.32
2001-02	30	68	0.50	34	2.62	178.16
2002-03	31	39	0.49	19	2.65	103.35
average		702	0.62	437	2.98	2093.09

Bure played in his career the league team gpg was in average 2.98 vs 3.75, or teams in the games Bure played scored at 79.5% the rate of Bossy league, while Bure scored at 81.5% the rate of Bossy during their respective career.

This is obviously very rough, scoring distribution and when talking scoring talent, ice time and dedication at things that are not scoring goals, Florida Bure look better than peak pre-injury Bure in Vancouver "adjusted" he was not necessarily better at scoring goals, maybe he had more ice times on teams that were going no where outside of him scoring goals and dedicated less energy to defense and took more risk trying to score (playing higher and what not) as it was their only chance to win.

This is just a rough idea that we cannot just really plug gpg of someone that played int he 1978-1987 league with someone that played significant part of their career when 45 goals could put you in the Rocket race type of environment.

If you look at a method I prefer, how they scored versus elite canadian scorer in the league, here again there is no Bossy > Bure

fullName	count(season)	totalGamesPlayed	TotalAdjGoals	averageSeason	adjGPG
Maurice Richard	18	978	968	53.8	0.99
Alex Ovechkin	16	1197	1146	71.6	0.96
Mario Lemieux	17	915	820	48.2	0.9
Pavel Bure	12	702	627	52.3	0.89
Bobby Hull	16	1063	932	58.2	0.88
Steven Stamkos	13	841	705	54.2	0.84
Mike Bossy	10	752	625	62.5	0.83
Brett Hull	19	1269	983	51.7	0.77
Gordie Howe	26	1767	1338	51.5	0.76
Bernie Geoffrion	16	883	675	42.2	0.76

When it come to a Bure vs Bossy goalscoring conversation, numbers do not help us here, longevity does not help us that much either way, international pre-nhl play, scoring in the playoff when they had the opportunity to do so, eye test etc... they match really well, there is not much magic end of conversation argument one can use.

Bure did lead the league one more time than Bossy, but Bossy had a second place to a 92 goal Gretzky scoring 64 of them, thats not fair.
Bossy scored in the playoff more often than Bure, had way more shoot at it as well.

All time greatest scorer, I would and easily put Bossy above Bure, he did in the playoff, when you look his game against strong defense-high intensity, regular season against the good defense + playoff + best on best tourney, his scoring is not far from prime Gretzky at all, which make him probably not far from anyone at all. He did it more often, he did in a row, you search tie breaker and those are good, it is a clear even if not by a lot Bossy > Bure all time historic goal scorer.

Who was better to score a goal at hockey, pick what you prefer / could depend of the team need, if I am the Islanders trying to win 5 cups in a row, give my Bossy, team Russia in a short tourney, the Panthers, 94 Canucks, not sure at all Bossy score more goals and can see a Bure argument easily.

Bure also scored while playing zero defense, and being a terrible playmaker.

Bossy was a team player, and played a team oriented game.


If you are going to penalize Bossy for playing in a high scoring era, it also makes sense to penalize Bure's 2 best seasons.

 

[MadLuke]

If you are going to penalize Bossy for playing in a high scoring era, it also makes sense to penalize Bure's 2 best seasons.

That exactly what the message you quote do, there is no different of treatment for the 2 players being applied here.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If you are going to penalize Bossy for playing in a high scoring era, it also makes sense to penalize Bure's 2 best seasons.

That's not "penalizing" him. It's properly taking scoring environment into context.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

If you look at a method I prefer, how they scored versus elite canadian scorer in the league, here again there is no Bossy > Bure

fullName	count(season)	totalGamesPlayed	TotalAdjGoals	averageSeason	adjGPG
Maurice Richard	18	978	968	53.8	0.99
Alex Ovechkin	16	1197	1146	71.6	0.96
Mario Lemieux	17	915	820	48.2	0.9
Pavel Bure	12	702	627	52.3	0.89
Bobby Hull	16	1063	932	58.2	0.88
Steven Stamkos	13	841	705	54.2	0.84
Mike Bossy	10	752	625	62.5	0.83
Brett Hull	19	1269	983	51.7	0.77
Gordie Howe	26	1767	1338	51.5	0.76
Bernie Geoffrion	16	883	675	42.2	0.76

You may have already posted this in another thread, but do you have best 5, 7, or 10 years under this method? (Just so we have a rough estimate of their primes - so Richard and Hull don't get dragged down by an 5-8 years relative to Bossy and Bure?)

 

[Gorskyontario]

That exactly what the message you quote do, there is no different of treatment for the 2 players being applied here.

Sorry but I don't see it that way.

 

[Thenameless]

Bossy.

I also don't agree that Bossy can't be in the discussion for Top-5 goal scorer of All Time either. Perhaps ultimately, he doesn't land there, but he's certainly in the discussion.

Bure is like the Allen Iverson of goal scorers. Both little guys, electrifying, quick, they both had their deep runs in the playoffs once, but you really aren't getting anywhere with them year-in/year-out. Too individualistic.

Bossy delivered in a team structure that won it all many times over. If Bossy played with Gretzky, I think he could have had a shot at +90 goals in a season, but I don't think Bure could do that playing with a Gretzky or a Lemieux. He'd drive them batty.

Bure on that early 80's Islanders team with Potvin, Gillies, Goring, and Trottier would have been just fine. They likely still win four in a row. Bossy on the 94 Canucks is fine too. Don't know if they get over the hump with the Rangers, but I see him lighting it up just fine.

Having said that, Bossy did actually do it - win those Cups. So, to me that can't be taken away. Bure being the more electrifying player doesn't "really" make winning four in a row any better. Maybe in theory more memorable if he had some exciting end-to-end goals.

 

[BarnabyJones PI]

Bure on that early 80's Islanders team with Potvin, Gillies, Goring, and Trottier would have been just fine. They likely still win four in a row. Bossy on the 94 Canucks is fine too. Don't know if they get over the hump with the Rangers, but I see him lighting it up just fine.

Having said that, Bossy did actually do it - win those Cups. So, to me that can't be taken away. Bure being the more electrifying player doesn't "really" make winning four in a row any better. Maybe in theory more memorable if he had some exciting end-to-end goals.

Respectfully, no way.

One player you can zoom out on, and understand what he's doing on a team level, that he's buying in to their system/schemes. The other guy, is on his own island for the most part. I doubt they'd even win one with Bure being swapped out for Bossy. Also if Trottier is playing with Bure, he's not sniffing a Hart trophy unless Bure is playing on a separate line. I'd also imagine that Arbour would think twice about matching up Potvin whenever Bure's playing 5v5, since he's being wasted too.

I don't understand how a Lafleur fan - who's quite similar to Bossy - would fall for Bure. I can't see Bowman (or Al Arbour) putting up with Bure's style. Or his Habs or Islanders' teammates.

Lafleur and Bossy left a lot of goals on the table. Bure and the guy on the East Coast whose team makes an exaggerated shift to help spoon feed him to get his shot off, are all about themselves, and put goal scoring above everything else. I don't necessarily think players who accrue the most goals, with little regard to other aspects of the game (specifically in term of 'TEAM'), should be considered at the top of the All Time great goalscorer's lists.

Why isn't Lafleur being mentioned more often in that Top 10 list?

 

[MadLuke]

Sorry but I don't see it that way.

How did I less "punished" Bure 93 and 94 high scoring season with the method described in this message than Bossy ?

 

[Gorskyontario]

How did I less "punished" Bure 93 and 94 high scoring season with the method described in this message than Bossy ?

You seem to be looking for excuses for Bure's lack of success(compared to Mike Bossy of course).

Mike Bossy scored at the highest GPG clip in the history of the NHL. You seem to be trying to invalidate him based on what if scenarios. What if Bure was healthy, what if Bure didn't play in the DPE.


Bure didn't score 58,59 goals because he was better in 99-2001 than 93/94. He scored that many because he played on a garbage team that ran all their offense though him, and he played zero defense, while playing like 26 minutes a night.

If anything I consider Bure's 60 goal seasons in the early 90s more impressive than anything he did later in his career, when he was clearly floating around scoring garbage goals to reach his bonuses in 5-2 losses.

 

[MadLuke]

Mike Bossy scored at the highest GPG clip in the history of the NHL. You seem to be trying to invalidate him based on what if scenarios. What if Bure was healthy, what if Bure didn't play in the DPE.

I am not sure how you get what if Bure was healthy or not, those 2 players played about the same amount of games.

Yes what if Bure did not play in the DPE and what if Bossy did not play in the highest scoring era in the history of the sports, would there gpg gap be has high, you do not consider that a valid question ?

If someone say Maruk has same amount of 60 goals season than Ovechkin or Lanny Mcdonald peaked higher, would be shocked by someone pointing out how more impressive it was to score 65 in 2008 than 66 in 1983 according to them ?

Bure didn't score 58,59 goals because he was better in 99-2001 than 93/94. He scored that many because he played on a garbage team that ran all their offense though him, and he played zero defense, while playing like 26 minutes a night.

All those * are in the message you quoted and one of the reason why a claim that Bossy is ranked higher has an all-time scorer, I am not sure which part of the message you disagree with exactly.

 

[The Panther]

When Bure led the League with 58 goals in 1999-00, bear in mind he had 9 empty-net goals. Yeah, those are still goals (and I think he still led the League anyway, in terms of non-empty netters), but in the debate over which Bure seasons are best, that may be a consideration.

 

[Gorskyontario]

If someone say Maruk has same amount of 60 goals season than Ovechkin or Lanny Mcdonald peaked higher, would be shocked by someone pointing out how more impressive it was to score 65 in 2008 than 66 in 1983 according to them ?

No one is claiming Maruk is one of the best goal scorers ever.

 

[Midnight Judges]

No one is claiming Maruk is one of the best goal scorers ever.

Unless you factor in the scoring environment, what is the argument to say he wasn’t?

60 goals / 136 points

Without considering that context, isn’t Maruk’s 1982 season a lock for one of the top 40 greatest single seasons in 100 years of hockey history?