Mike Bossy vs Pavel Bure who's the better goal scorer all time?

[Gorskyontario]

Unless you factor in the scoring environment, what is the argument to say he wasn’t?

60 goals / 136 points

Without considering that context, isn’t Maruk’s 1982 season a lock for one of the top 40 greatest single seasons in 100 years of hockey history?

Dennis Maruk scored 356 goals in 888 games.


If he scored 50-60 every season he played he would have been one of the best goal scorers ever. Consistency matters, Bossy had it.

 

[67 others]

Yes Bure outside its rookie season played in 2 high scoring season, 93 and 94, he scored 60 goals both time, his next healthy season was in the dpe in 1998.

60 goals even then was really good, that was the Rocket winning season of 1994.


I really do not like using league wide goal per games, but if we use it as a gross reference, weighted by how many games they played * that season gpg and make it an average it would look like.

Bossy

season	age	games	gpg	goals	league gpg	weighted
1977-78	21​	73​	0.73​	53​	3.30​	240.9​
1978-79	22​	80​	0.86​	69​	3.50​	280​
1979-80	23​	75​	0.68​	51​	3.51​	263.25​
1980-81	24​	79​	0.86​	68​	3.84​	303.36​
1981-82	25​	80​	0.80​	64​	4.01​	320.8​
1982-83	26​	79​	0.76​	60​	3.86​	304.94​
1983-84	27​	67​	0.76​	51​	3.94​	263.98​
1984-85	28​	76​	0.76​	58​	3.89​	295.64​
1985-86	29​	80​	0.76​	61​	3.97​	317.6​
1986-87	30​	63​	0.60​	38​	3.67​	231.21​
Average	25.5​	752​	0.76​	573​	3.75​	2821.68​

At the bottom we see that the games Bossy played in his career the league team gpg was in average 3.75

Outside 92-93, I think all Bossy season were pretty much highest scoring in the modern nhl.

Bure in comparison

season	age	games	gpg	goals	league gpg	weighted
1991-92	20	65	0.52	34	3.48	226.20
1992-93	21	83	0.72	60	3.63	301.29
1993-94	22	76	0.79	60	3.24	246.24
1994-95	23	44	0.45	20	2.99	131.56
1995-96	24	15	0.40	6	3.14	47.10
1996-97	25	63	0.37	23	2.92	183.96
1997-98	26	82	0.62	51	2.64	216.48
1998-99	27	11	1.18	13	2.63	28.93
1999-00	28	74	0.78	58	2.75	203.50
2000-01	29	82	0.72	59	2.76	226.32
2001-02	30	68	0.50	34	2.62	178.16
2002-03	31	39	0.49	19	2.65	103.35
average		702	0.62	437	2.98	2093.09

Bure played in his career the league team gpg was in average 2.98 vs 3.75, or teams in the games Bure played scored at 79.5% the rate of Bossy league, while Bure scored at 81.5% the rate of Bossy during their respective career, in terms of relative to global scoring they were virtually the same.

This is obviously very rough, scoring distribution and when talking scoring talent, ice time and dedication at things that are not scoring goals, Florida Bure look better than peak pre-injury Bure in Vancouver "adjusted", while he did not become necessarily better at scoring goals, maybe he had more ice times on teams that were going nowhere outside of him scoring goals and dedicated less energy to defense and took more risk trying to score (playing higher and what not) as it was their only chance to win.

This is just a rough idea that we cannot just really plug gpg of someone that played int he 1978-1987 league with someone that played significant part of their career when 45 goals could put you in the Rocket race type of environment.

If you look at a method I prefer, how they scored versus elite Canadian scorer in the league, here again there is no Bossy > Bure.

fullName	count(season)	totalGamesPlayed	TotalAdjGoals	averageSeason	adjGPG
Maurice Richard	18	978	968	53.8	0.99
Alex Ovechkin	16	1197	1146	71.6	0.96
Mario Lemieux	17	915	820	48.2	0.9
Pavel Bure	12	702	627	52.3	0.89
Bobby Hull	16	1063	932	58.2	0.88
Steven Stamkos	13	841	705	54.2	0.84
Mike Bossy	10	752	625	62.5	0.83
Brett Hull	19	1269	983	51.7	0.77
Gordie Howe	26	1767	1338	51.5	0.76
Bernie Geoffrion	16	883	675	42.2	0.76

When it come to a Bure vs Bossy goalscoring conversation, numbers do not help us here, longevity does not help us that much either way, international pre-nhl play, scoring in the playoff when they had the opportunity to do so, eye test etc... they match really well, there is not much magic end of conversation argument one can use.

Bure did lead the league one more time than Bossy, but Bossy had a second place to a 92 goal Gretzky scoring 64 of them, thats not fair.
Bossy scored in the playoff more often than Bure, had way more occasion to do it as well.

All time greatest scorer, I would and easily put Bossy above Bure, he did so many time in a row in the playoff, when you look his game against strong defense-high intensity, regular season against the good defense + playoff + best on best tourney, his scoring is not far from prime Gretzky at all, which make him probably not far from anyone at all. He did it more often, he did in a row, you search tiebreaker and those are good, it is a clear even if not by a lot Bossy > Bure all-time historic goal scorer.

Who was better to score a goal at hockey, pick what you prefer / could depend on the team need, if I am the Islanders surrounded with talent trying to win 5 cups in a row, give me Bossy, team Russia in a short tourney, the Panthers, 94 Canucks, not sure at all Bossy score more goals and can see a Bure argument easily.

The clutching and grabbing of the DPE didn't really hamper Bure. He spent most of it avoiding clutching and grabbing doing figure 8's near the blueline/redline for cherry picks

 

[MadLuke]

Really strong skater and in general as well that help (a bit like Jagr), but still had to shoot around the oversized equipment goaltender.

He did lead the league in power play goals as well with the Panthers, were I doubt cherry picking or not is a big difference (but by a smaller difference going toward your point).

 

[Gorskyontario]

Really strong skater and in general as well that help (a bit like Jagr), but still had to shoot around the oversized equipment goaltender.

He did lead the league in power play goals as well with the Panthers, were I doubt cherry picking or not is a big difference (but by a smaller difference going toward your point).

Just curious but did you watch Bure with the panthers? It was outright shameful.

 

[Dingo]

Adjusting here by considering significant that Bossy played on a 17 player roster some season and 18 some other reason, but not how much power play-publicity break pushed scoring among the first PP unit player in 1993.

82-83 is the first season of the current roster shape, I imagine that why scoring 60 goals in 1983 adjust to an higher amount than 64 the year before... but that point to the strangeness of it all, how much good minute Bossy lost by adding an extra skater do we think ?

Why those 64 goals:

2.	Mike Bossy* • NYI	64
3.	Dennis Maruk • WSH	60
4.	Dino Ciccarelli* • MNS	55
5.	Rick Vaive • TOR	54

They think should adjust to less goals than those 60 the next season:

2.	Lanny McDonald* • CGY	66
3.	Mike Bossy* • NYI	60
4.	Michel Goulet* • QUE	57
5.	Marcel Dionne* • LAK	56

2-10 goalscorer in 1982 averaged: 54.00 goals
2-10 goalscorer in 1983 averaged: 54.33 goals

yet goalscoring among the elite was exactly the same those 2 seasons.

The notion that adding an extra skater to the roster would affect how many goals first liner-first pp unit player versus the rest of the team would score making the 83 player result more impressive seem flawed to me, going from 8 players to 9 that make sense, 17 to 18 less so.

Just before 83 it is an era that HR adjustment can be particularly harsh, according to them Gretzky has no season that his not margin of error higher to 30 years old Mario playing only 70 of the games in 1996, according to them 69 goals in 1996 > 92 in 1982.

Outscoring 5th place John Leclair by 35% > peak second place Bossy by 44%, adjusted by HR Bossy numbers look really unimpressive versus Bure, but they look very unimpressive versus prime John Leclair, so... should we start a LeClair vs Bossy who the better goalscorer all time ?

LeClair: 59-52-49-49-45-44
Bossy..: 58-52-48-48-47-47

Adjusted by elite Canadian goalscorer in the nhl during their play, Bure-Bossy scored at a very similar rate per game.

im drunk.

alli got from this is a full laugh trying to imagine a healthy Bure struggling to beat Maruk and MacDonald.

its hilarious!

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

Who's the better goal scorer all time Mike Bossy or Pavel Bure?

When I think of what "goal scorer" means to me it has to be Bossy, as a signature sniper. Bure seemed to score so often with generally superior athleticism which, to me, is not quite the same thing.

 

[overpass]

Bossy also played in the four line era, on a four line team, for one of the few coaches who expected his stars to play two ways. It was well recognized while Bossy was playing that he could have put up bigger numbers if Al Arbour had given him the chance.

Following up on this point. Michael Farber of the Montreal Gazette wrote an article in which he tracked Bossy's ice time, in the 48th game of Bossy's 50 in 50. Some quotes from the article are below.

Montreal Gazette, Jan 21, 1981

Bossy played 23 minutes, 56 seconds and 23 shifts, took four shots, drew three penalties, and had two good scoring opportunities last night.

Bossy played five minutes more than usual, double shifting for most of the two periods on a fourth line with Steve Tambellini and Garry Howatt.

"I think we're all aware of the record," said Islander coach Al Arbour. "And we're working so he gets it. He'll get the same ice time in Detroit (tomorrow night) and until this thing is finished, he'll have one more at home Saturday when the Quebec Nordiques visit."

Farber made it pretty clear that Bossy was getting extra shifts. By his calculation, Bossy's 23:56 was about 5 minutes extra, so the norm for Bossy would have been about 19 minutes/game.

Al Arbour's comments also make it clear that Bossy's double-shifting to get to 24 minutes was not the norm, and would come to an end with the 50-in-50 attempt.

That extra 5 minutes of ice time was completely standard for Pavel Bure in Florida. Over 223 GP in Florida, he averaged 25.6 shifts and 25 minutes average TOI. Double shifting with the fourth line or skipping the fourth line was the norm for Bure and for other scorers in the 90s. Longer TV timeouts helped coaches get their top scorers out more quickly, and coaches also shortened shifts for their bottom two lines. Many teams had 1-2 goons on the fourth line who barely played. Florida usually had 2.

If you want to compare Bossy and Bure statistically, and you're looking at factors like league scoring level and teammate support, don't forget to consider the ice time they played in a game. 25 minutes/game for Bure, 19 minutes/game for Bossy.

 

[MadLuke]

Bure never had a recorded 25 minutes a game seasons

1997-98	26	VAN	NHL	RW	82	51	39	90	5	48	32	13	6	4	24	12	3	329	15.5	1823:42	22:14	ASG,ASnhl-3
1998-99	27	FLA	NHL	RW	11	13	3	16	3	4	7	5	1	0	2	0	1	44	29.5	223:32	20:19
1999-00	28	FLA	NHL	RW	74	58	36	94	25	16	45	11	2	14	27	9	0	360	16.1	1743:05	23:33	ASG,ASnhl-2,ASnhl-6,Byng-4,Hart-3,Richard-1
2000-01	29	FLA	NHL	RW	82	59	33	92	-2	58	35	19	5	8	24	9	0	384	15.4	1905:48	23:14	ASG,ASnhl-2,ASnhl-9,Hart-9,Richard-1
2001-02	30	2TM	NHL	RW	68	34	35	69	-5	62	21	12	1	2	23	12	0	287	11.8	1606:59	23:38

that was a lot of ice-time, but not out of bound for a star forward of that era:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

That was aroundKariya-Lemieux-Sakic-Jagr-Lindros type.

 

[overpass]

Bure never had a recorded 25 minutes a game seasons

1997-98	26	VAN	NHL	RW	82	51	39	90	5	48	32	13	6	4	24	12	3	329	15.5	1823:42	22:14	ASG,ASnhl-3
1998-99	27	FLA	NHL	RW	11	13	3	16	3	4	7	5	1	0	2	0	1	44	29.5	223:32	20:19
1999-00	28	FLA	NHL	RW	74	58	36	94	25	16	45	11	2	14	27	9	0	360	16.1	1743:05	23:33	ASG,ASnhl-2,ASnhl-6,Byng-4,Hart-3,Richard-1
2000-01	29	FLA	NHL	RW	82	59	33	92	-2	58	35	19	5	8	24	9	0	384	15.4	1905:48	23:14	ASG,ASnhl-2,ASnhl-9,Hart-9,Richard-1
2001-02	30	2TM	NHL	RW	68	34	35	69	-5	62	21	12	1	2	23	12	0	287	11.8	1606:59	23:38

that was a lot of ice-time, but not out of bound for a star forward of that era:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

That was aroundKariya-Lemieux-Sakic-Jagr-Lindros type.

Bure's TOI numbers were very different before someone weirdly decided in 2023 to mess with the TOI stats and cut the TOI for any games where a forward played 30+ TOI.

See here for the stats as of May 2023. Bure averaged 25 minutes/game across his whole time in Florida, peaking at 26:52 in 2000-01.

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	EV	PPG	SHG	GWG	EV	PP	SH	SOG	SPCT	TOI	ATOI	Awards
1998-99	27	FLA	NHL	11	13	3	16	3	4	7	5	1	0	2	0	1	44	29.5	239	21:41
1999-00	28	FLA	NHL	74	58	36	94	25	16	45	11	2	14	27	9	0	360	16.1	1804	24:23	AS-2,AS-6,Byng-4,Hart-3,Richard-1
2000-01	29	FLA	NHL	82	59	33	92	-2	58	35	19	5	8	24	9	0	384	15.4	2203	26:52	AS-2,AS-9,Hart-9,Richard-1
2001-02	30	TOT	NHL	68	34	35	69	-5	62	21	12	1	2	23	12	0	287	11.8	1701	25:01
2001-02	30	FLA	NHL	56	22	27	49	-14	56	12	9	1	1	15	12	0	238	9.2	1416	25:18
2001-02	30	NYR	NHL	12	12	8	20	9	6	9	3	0	1	8	0	0	49	24.5	285	23:43
2002-03	31	NYR	NHL	39	19	11	30	4	16	13	5	1	3	4	7	0	136	14	739	18:56
7 yrs		VAN	NHL	428	254	224	478	17	328	161	69	24	32	132	78	14	1919	13.2
4 yrs		FLA	NHL	223	152	99	251	12	134	99	44	9	23	68	30	1	1026	14.8	5662	25:24
2 yrs		NYR	NHL	51	31	19	50	13	22	22	8	1	4	12	7	0	185	16.8	1023	20:04
Career		12 yrs	NHL	702	437	342	779	42	484	282	121	34	59	212	115	15	3130	14	6686	24:24

 

[MadLuke]

This is a strange decision, and I was surprised, I too remembered the most ice time among forward adn the 25 minutes range before looking right now.

That said maybe the previous numbers had errors and the new one are the good one.

 

[Mike C]

Bossy.

I also don't agree that Bossy can't be in the discussion for Top-5 goal scorer of All Time either. Perhaps ultimately, he doesn't land there, but he's certainly in the discussion.

Bure is like the Allen Iverson of goal scorers. Both little guys, electrifying, quick, they both had their deep runs in the playoffs once, but you really aren't getting anywhere with them year-in/year-out. Too individualistic.

Bossy delivered in a team structure that won it all many times over. If Bossy played with Gretzky, I think he could have had a shot at +90 goals in a season, but I don't think Bure could do that playing with a Gretzky or a Lemieux. He'd drive them batty.

Bossy can and should be in the discussion for top 1 goal scorer of all time let alone top 5

This is a strange decision, and I was surprised, I too remembered the most ice time among forward adn the 25 minutes range before looking right now.

That said maybe the previous numbers had errors and the new one are the good one.

Numbers said Nestor Cortes too

 

[authentic]

Bure's TOI numbers were very different before someone weirdly decided in 2023 to mess with the TOI stats and cut the TOI for any games where a forward played 30+ TOI.

See here for the stats as of May 2023. Bure averaged 25 minutes/game across his whole time in Florida, peaking at 26:52 in 2000-01.

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	EV	PPG	SHG	GWG	EV	PP	SH	SOG	SPCT	TOI	ATOI	Awards
1998-99	27	FLA	NHL	11	13	3	16	3	4	7	5	1	0	2	0	1	44	29.5	239	21:41
1999-00	28	FLA	NHL	74	58	36	94	25	16	45	11	2	14	27	9	0	360	16.1	1804	24:23	AS-2,AS-6,Byng-4,Hart-3,Richard-1
2000-01	29	FLA	NHL	82	59	33	92	-2	58	35	19	5	8	24	9	0	384	15.4	2203	26:52	AS-2,AS-9,Hart-9,Richard-1
2001-02	30	TOT	NHL	68	34	35	69	-5	62	21	12	1	2	23	12	0	287	11.8	1701	25:01
2001-02	30	FLA	NHL	56	22	27	49	-14	56	12	9	1	1	15	12	0	238	9.2	1416	25:18
2001-02	30	NYR	NHL	12	12	8	20	9	6	9	3	0	1	8	0	0	49	24.5	285	23:43
2002-03	31	NYR	NHL	39	19	11	30	4	16	13	5	1	3	4	7	0	136	14	739	18:56
7 yrs		VAN	NHL	428	254	224	478	17	328	161	69	24	32	132	78	14	1919	13.2
4 yrs		FLA	NHL	223	152	99	251	12	134	99	44	9	23	68	30	1	1026	14.8	5662	25:24
2 yrs		NYR	NHL	51	31	19	50	13	22	22	8	1	4	12	7	0	185	16.8	1023	20:04
Career		12 yrs	NHL	702	437	342	779	42	484	282	121	34	59	212	115	15	3130	14	6686	24:24

Any idea how much of that was powerplay vs. ES? Also in comparison to someone like Jagr, also there were a few other players that era who average around 25 minutes a few seasons like Sakic also. The fact that he scored 58 in 74 averaging just over 24 is pretty impressive since he did PK as well.

 

[Stephen]

I go with Bure for stylistic points. The way he scored goals in that explosive breakway style of his was hockey's answer to a slam dunk.

 

[Stephen]

goals per game

Mike Bossy: .762(1st all time)
Pavel Bure: .623 (6th all time)

points per game

Mike Bossy: 1.497 (4th all time)
Pavel Bure: 1.110 (29th all time)

Lets not compare playoffs, we want it to be remotely fair.

Would have been interesting to have seen Bure flying around NHL defenses in the 70s and 80s.

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

Bossy can and should be in the discussion for top 1 goal scorer of all time let alone top 5

I am waiting for someone to say that he was a product of Billy Smith.

 

[The Panther]

Would have been interesting to have seen Bure flying around NHL defenses in the 70s and 80s.

I mean, the D he faced in October 1991 were basically all 1980s' guys, right?

In Bure's first NHL game (he had three shots, but didn't score), the defencemen he faced were:
Carlyle (from 1976)
Cronin (from 1988, but draft-age in 1982)
Housley (from 1982)
Kennedy (from 1982)
Numminen (from 1988)
Olausson (from 1986)

 

[BarnabyJones PI]

I mean, the D he faced in October 1991 were basically all 1980s' guys, right?

In Bure's first NHL game (he had three shots, but didn't score), the defencemen he faced were:
Carlyle (from 1976)
Cronin (from 1988, but draft-age in 1982)
Housley (from 1982)
Kennedy (from 1982)
Numminen (from 1988)
Olausson (from 1986)

I never would have guessed that the 1991-92 Jets (somehow) finished 3rd overall in GA (244) that season.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Bossy can and should be in the discussion for top 1 goal scorer of all time let alone top 5

The top goal scorer of all time would need to at least have the best goal scoring season of his generation or the best adjusted goal scoring season of his generation.

Bossy isn't remotely close to either one. He loses out to 2 or 3 or 4 other players.

Bossy also gets his doors blown off by a contemporary in terms of total goals and GPG during their overlapping seasons.

Making a case for him is pretty hard to do IMO.

 

[MadLuke]

Bossy case over Gretzky is hard, require a lot of work but was made on this message board:

Mike Bossy was a better goal scorer than Wayne Gretzky

I've posted on this in a couple of threads before, and I thought I'd put it out there for discussion. When it comes to discussing the greatest goalscorers, I've often seen Bossy dismissed in this forum because Gretzky was a better goal scorer in their era. I don't think that's true at all -- I...

forums.hfboards.com

And it was not a bad one, from memory it did feel like peak Bossy was as good as peak Gretzky against strong defense/teams in big games at scoring goal (in term of numbers, putting in the goal), while Gretzky was significantly better the rest of the time, so you still end up Gretzky>Bossy with an easy tie breaker for him, but much closer in a way than one could have thought comparing 92 goals to 67.

 

[Overrated]

goals per game

Mike Bossy: .762(1st all time)
Pavel Bure: .623 (6th all time)

points per game

Mike Bossy: 1.497 (4th all time)
Pavel Bure: 1.110 (29th all time)

Lets not compare playoffs, we want it to be remotely fair.

If his injuries let him continue into his 30s his all time PPG and GPG would be much worse. He also happened to play in the highest scoring era imaginable.

 

[The Panther]

Over a 9-season period, I think a case can be made for Bossy as the co- or even best goal-scorer ever, if you value consistency (I do, more than most here, it seems).

Gretzky still handily beats him in goals-volume-per-best-nine seasons due to his insane peaks, but Bossy's consistency as a producer is rather remarkable. For nine straight seasons, he produced between 51 and 69 goals (and probably would have a 10th season if not for the back).

I'm not sure Ovechkin can match that 9-year consistency, nor Bobby Hull.

Doesn't make Bossy "the best" or anything, but it is remarkable. So, so hard to do that.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Would have been interesting to have seen Bure flying around NHL defenses in the 70s and 80s.

Considering he was only able to score 60 in a high scoring environment, on a fairly good team its safe to say he would not have performed any better. If anything he would have been targeted worse for injuries than he was in the 90s by teams like the Flyers, Boston ect.

If his injuries let him continue into his 30s his all time PPG and GPG would be much worse. He also happened to play in the highest scoring era imaginable.

If Bossy didn't retire early he likely would have around 900 goals. The NHL was high scoring until the mid 90s, Bossy would have played with Lafontaine as Trottier declined.


The islanders weren't petty like the habs with letting their star players go. There is a possibility Bossy ends up with someone like the Gretzky kings late in his career.

 

[Gorskyontario]

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Pavel Bure's best seasons were higher scoring than the 70s, and nearly as high as the 80s.

 

[jigglysquishy]

. The islanders weren't petty like the habs with letting their star players go.

Yes they were. They did it to Trottier after years of cutting his minutes.

He details it in his book. Basically got pushed out the door for years before getting released from his contract.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Yes they were. They did it to Trottier after years of cutting his minutes.

He details it in his book. Basically got pushed out the door for years before getting released from his contract.

That's not what I'm talking about.

The habs held onto Lafleur for political reasons, when the Oilers wanted him because they didn't want him to flip do the Nords.

How do you not know this?


Also no disrespect to Trottier, but he was clearly worse than Lafontaine and Sutter by the time he left.