Mike Bossy vs Pavel Bure who's the better goal scorer all time?

Sentinel · Sunday at 3:21 PM

Gorskyontario said:
Bure had his two highest scoring seasons in a high scoring era.

1999-2000:
Bure: 59 goals
Nolan: 44 goals
Amonte 43 goals

2000-2001:
Bure: 59 goals
Sakic: 54 goals
Jagr: 52 goals

MadLuke · Sunday at 3:26 PM

Gorskyontario said:
Bure had his two highest scoring seasons in a high scoring era.

This just show how much it is impossible to make law about misinformation, most of them are a factually correct sentence like this.
60 is indeed higher than 59 and 58, even if it is scored during a 84 games season and 2000-2001 were really low scoring 82 games seasons.

But incredibly misleading.

Sentinel said:
Which is why he never touched Gretzky's single season totals

85 in 76 or 69 in 60 is not that far apart than 92 in 80 and 87 in 74, obviously lower, but you can stretch your finger and kind of touch it.

Lemieux scored 52 playoff goals during his first 60 playoff games (23-27 years old), 22-24 Gretzky (what look his best playoff goal scoring stretch) it was 47 goals in 58 game played, not sure we should act has if Lemieux peak was not touching Gretzky goal scoring here.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

most gpg in a season since 1980, at least 40 games played

Gretzky: 1.18
Gretzky: 1.15
Lemieux: 1.15
Lemieux: 1.12
Hull: 1.10
Neely: 1.02
Mogilny: .99

If Lemieux play 83 games in 1993 and score 93 goals, does it change in any way how good he was at scoring goals ?

JianYang · Sunday at 5:14 PM

Bossy was a straight up assassin for goal scoring.

Bure was more explosive and made for highlight reels.

For goal scoring and goal scoring only, I think you have to go with bossy. He's in extremely rarified air for his ability to score goals.

Gorskyontario · Sunday at 6:33 PM

Sentinel said:
1999-2000:
Bure: 59 goals
Nolan: 44 goals
Amonte 43 goals

2000-2001:
Bure: 59 goals
Sakic: 54 goals
Jagr: 52 goals

Those aren't his two highest scoring seasons.

MadLuke said:
This just show how much it is impossible to make law about misinformation, most of them are a factually correct sentence like this.
60 is indeed higher than 59 and 58, even if it is scored during a 84 games season and 2000-2001 were really low scoring 82 games seasons.

I look at the stats and I don't make excuses.

67 others · Monday at 8:03 PM

MadLuke said:
Not really sure of that premise, as the older generation that played in 4x-50-70 games season in a very low scoring NHL could benefit from some adjusted stats,

Of the top 50 leaders in non-adjusted goals, 9 started to play before 1970, adjusted you go up to 11.

Howe get a boost over a recent generation like Gretzky, Richard goes from #33 to #11.

Its still hypothetical adjustments that doesn't take into account that certain player styles would have adjusted well to any era and may not fit with a significant reduction.
The man shot 21% his entire career. Would that be less today? probably, but not much. He wasn't flashy or physical. He just had an uncanny ability to find seams and laser it home, while taking back alley mugging levels of cross checks to the back and levels physical abuse not seen today. Tough as nails, just not one to drop the gloves. He was also an excellent back checker.

I mean, you are willing to point out that Lemieux age 23-27 scored 52 goals in his first 60 playoff games to compare him to Gretzky age 22-24 scoring 47 in 58 games . Why is it so hard for you to also point out that Bossy scored 51 goals in 56 playoff games over 3 years at age 21-23?

MadLuke · Monday at 8:24 PM

67 others said:
I mean, you are willing to point out that Lemieux age 23-27 scored 52 goals in his first 60 playoff games to compare him to Gretzky age 22-24 scoring 47 in 58 games . Why is it so hard for you to also point out that Bossy scored 51 goals in 56 playoff games over 3 years at age 21-23?

This was 2 different conversation...... (not sure why there wsa a Lemieux vs Gretzky talk in this thread but that what I was responding too)

If you look at my previous message about Bossy;

All-time as said just above, consistency with similar peak, unfair or not, make it really easy to give it to Bossy. he won 4 cups scoring 61 goals in 72 games.

67 others said:
Its still hypothetical adjustments that doesn't take into account that certain player styles would have adjusted well to any era and may not fit with a significant reduction.

100% true, but that really not what adjustment try to do too, when you adjust for inflation the price of a Model T, it is not saying that how much it would cost now in the market (or to make)

KevinRedkey · Monday at 9:50 PM

Maybe at their absolute peak, it could be Bure - but Bossy did it consistently for way longer.

Voted Bossy quite easily.

Gorskyontario · 2024-10-22T16:02:54-0400

MadLuke said:
This was 2 different conversation...... (not sure why there wsa a Lemieux vs Gretzky talk in this thread but that what I was responding too)

If you look at my previous message about Bossy;

All-time as said just above, consistency with similar peak, unfair or not, make it really easy to give it to Bossy. he won 4 cups scoring 61 goals in 72 games.

100% true, but that really not what adjustment try to do too, when you adjust for inflation the price of a Model T, it is not saying that how much it would cost now in the market (or to make)

Mike Bossy has more 60 goal seasons than Bure has 50 goal seasons.

Sentinel said:
1999-2000:
Bure: 59 goals
Nolan: 44 goals
Amonte 43 goals

2000-2001:
Bure: 59 goals
Sakic: 54 goals
Jagr: 52 goals

Mike Bossy has as many 50+ goal seasons, as Bure has 20+ goal seasons.

Sentinel · 2024-10-22T20:54:05-0400

Gorskyontario said:
Mike Bossy has more 60 goal seasons than Bure has 50 goal seasons.

Mike Bossy has as many 50+ goal seasons, as Bure has 20+ goal seasons.

It's called 1980s vs. 1990s.

MadLuke · 2024-10-22T21:02:27-0400

Sentinel said:
It's called 1980s vs. 1990s.

In Bure case it is called really bad knee injuries...

Maybe Bure has "only" 5 50 goals season, Bure played 70 or more games in his career.... 5 times.

Gorskyontario · 2024-10-23T09:51:56-0400

Sentinel said:
It's called 1980s vs. 1990s.

The early 90s were high scoring(where Bure has 2x 60 goal seasons).

MadLuke said:
In Bure case it is called really bad knee injuries...

Maybe Bure has "only" 5 50 goals season, Bure played 70 or more games in his career.... 5 times.

So why are Bossy's goals per game so much higher then?

MadLuke · 2024-10-23T12:29:42-0400

Gorskyontario said:
The early 90s were high scoring(where Bure has 2x 60 goal seasons).

Yes Bure outside its rookie season played in 2 high scoring season, 93 and 94, he scored 60 goals both time, his next healthy season was in the dpe in 1998.

60 goals even then was really good, that was the Rocket winning season of 1994.

Gorskyontario said:
So why are Bossy's goals per game so much higher then?

I really do not like using league wide goal per games, but if we use it as a gross reference, weighted by how many games they played * that season gpg and make it an average it would look like.

Bossy

season	age	games	gpg	goals	league gpg	weighted
1977-78	21	73	0.73	53	3.30	240.9
1978-79	22	80	0.86	69	3.50	280
1979-80	23	75	0.68	51	3.51	263.25
1980-81	24	79	0.86	68	3.84	303.36
1981-82	25	80	0.80	64	4.01	320.8
1982-83	26	79	0.76	60	3.86	304.94
1983-84	27	67	0.76	51	3.94	263.98
1984-85	28	76	0.76	58	3.89	295.64
1985-86	29	80	0.76	61	3.97	317.6
1986-87	30	63	0.60	38	3.67	231.21
Average	25.5	752	0.76	573	3.75	2821.68

At the bottom we see that the games Bossy played in his career the league team gpg was in average 3.75

Outside 92-93, I think all Bossy season were pretty much highest scoring in the modern nhl.

Bure in comparison

season	age	games	gpg	goals	league gpg	weighted
1991-92	20	65	0.52	34	3.48	226.20
1992-93	21	83	0.72	60	3.63	301.29
1993-94	22	76	0.79	60	3.24	246.24
1994-95	23	44	0.45	20	2.99	131.56
1995-96	24	15	0.40	6	3.14	47.10
1996-97	25	63	0.37	23	2.92	183.96
1997-98	26	82	0.62	51	2.64	216.48
1998-99	27	11	1.18	13	2.63	28.93
1999-00	28	74	0.78	58	2.75	203.50
2000-01	29	82	0.72	59	2.76	226.32
2001-02	30	68	0.50	34	2.62	178.16
2002-03	31	39	0.49	19	2.65	103.35
average		702	0.62	437	2.98	2093.09

Bure played in his career the league team gpg was in average 2.98 vs 3.75, or teams in the games Bure played scored at 79.5% the rate of Bossy league, while Bure scored at 81.5% the rate of Bossy during their respective career.

This is obviously very rough, scoring distribution and when talking scoring talent, ice time and dedication at things that are not scoring goals, Florida Bure look better than peak pre-injury Bure in Vancouver "adjusted" he was not necessarily better at scoring goals, maybe he had more ice times on teams that were going no where outside of him scoring goals and dedicated less energy to defense and took more risk trying to score (playing higher and what not) as it was their only chance to win.

This is just a rough idea that we cannot just really plug gpg of someone that played int he 1978-1987 league with someone that played significant part of their career when 45 goals could put you in the Rocket race type of environment.

If you look at a method I prefer, how they scored versus elite canadian scorer in the league, here again there is no Bossy > Bure

fullName	count(season)	totalGamesPlayed	TotalAdjGoals	averageSeason	adjGPG
Maurice Richard	18	978	968	53.8	0.99
Alex Ovechkin	16	1197	1146	71.6	0.96
Mario Lemieux	17	915	820	48.2	0.9
Pavel Bure	12	702	627	52.3	0.89
Bobby Hull	16	1063	932	58.2	0.88
Steven Stamkos	13	841	705	54.2	0.84
Mike Bossy	10	752	625	62.5	0.83
Brett Hull	19	1269	983	51.7	0.77
Gordie Howe	26	1767	1338	51.5	0.76
Bernie Geoffrion	16	883	675	42.2	0.76

When it come to a Bure vs Bossy goalscoring conversation, numbers do not help us here, longevity does not help us that much either way, international pre-nhl play, scoring in the playoff when they had the opportunity to do so, eye test etc... they match really well, there is not much magic end of conversation argument one can use.

Bure did lead the league one more time than Bossy, but Bossy had a second place to a 92 goal Gretzky scoring 64 of them, thats not fair.
Bossy scored in the playoff more often than Bure, had way more shoot at it as well.

All time greatest scorer, I would and easily put Bossy above Bure, he did in the playoff, when you look his game against strong defense-high intensity, regular season against the good defense + playoff + best on best tourney, his scoring is not far from prime Gretzky at all, which make him probably not far from anyone at all. He did it more often, he did in a row, you search tie breaker and those are good, it is a clear even if not by a lot Bossy > Bure all time historic goal scorer.

Who was better to score a goal at hockey, pick what you prefer / could depend of the team need, if I am the Islanders trying to win 5 cups in a row, give my Bossy, team Russia in a short tourney, the Panthers, 94 Canucks, not sure at all Bossy score more goals and can see a Bure argument easily.

Gorskyontario · 2024-10-23T13:57:12-0400

MadLuke said:
Yes Bure outside its rookie season played in 2 high scoring season, 93 and 94, he scored 60 goals both time, his next healthy season was in the dpe in 1998.

60 goals even then was really good, that was the Rocket winning season of 1994.

I really do not like using league wide goal per games, but if we use it as a gross reference, weighted by how many games they played * that season gpg and make it an average it would look like.

Bossy

season age games gpg goals league gpg weighted
1977-78
21
73
0.73
53
3.30
240.9
1978-79
22
80
0.86
69
3.50
280
1979-80
23
75
0.68
51
3.51
263.25
1980-81
24
79
0.86
68
3.84
303.36
1981-82
25
80
0.80
64
4.01
320.8
1982-83
26
79
0.76
60
3.86
304.94
1983-84
27
67
0.76
51
3.94
263.98
1984-85
28
76
0.76
58
3.89
295.64
1985-86
29
80
0.76
61
3.97
317.6
1986-87
30
63
0.60
38
3.67
231.21
Average
25.5
752
0.76
573
3.75
2821.68

At the bottom we see that the games Bossy played in his career the league team gpg was in average 3.75

Outside 92-93, I think all Bossy season were pretty much highest scoring in the modern nhl.

Bure in comparison

season age games gpg goals league gpg weighted
1991-92 20 65 0.52 34 3.48 226.20
1992-93 21 83 0.72 60 3.63 301.29
1993-94 22 76 0.79 60 3.24 246.24
1994-95 23 44 0.45 20 2.99 131.56
1995-96 24 15 0.40 6 3.14 47.10
1996-97 25 63 0.37 23 2.92 183.96
1997-98 26 82 0.62 51 2.64 216.48
1998-99 27 11 1.18 13 2.63 28.93
1999-00 28 74 0.78 58 2.75 203.50
2000-01 29 82 0.72 59 2.76 226.32
2001-02 30 68 0.50 34 2.62 178.16
2002-03 31 39 0.49 19 2.65 103.35
average 702 0.62 437 2.98 2093.09

Bure played in his career the league team gpg was in average 2.98 vs 3.75, or teams in the games Bure played scored at 79.5% the rate of Bossy league, while Bure scored at 81.5% the rate of Bossy during their respective career.

This is obviously very rough, scoring distribution and when talking scoring talent, ice time and dedication at things that are not scoring goals, Florida Bure look better than peak pre-injury Bure in Vancouver "adjusted" he was not necessarily better at scoring goals, maybe he had more ice times on teams that were going no where outside of him scoring goals and dedicated less energy to defense and took more risk trying to score (playing higher and what not) as it was their only chance to win.

This is just a rough idea that we cannot just really plug gpg of someone that played int he 1978-1987 league with someone that played significant part of their career when 45 goals could put you in the Rocket race type of environment.

If you look at a method I prefer, how they scored versus elite canadian scorer in the league, here again there is no Bossy > Bure

fullName count(season) totalGamesPlayed TotalAdjGoals averageSeason adjGPG
Maurice Richard 18 978 968 53.8 0.99
Alex Ovechkin 16 1197 1146 71.6 0.96
Mario Lemieux 17 915 820 48.2 0.9
Pavel Bure 12 702 627 52.3 0.89
Bobby Hull 16 1063 932 58.2 0.88
Steven Stamkos 13 841 705 54.2 0.84
Mike Bossy 10 752 625 62.5 0.83
Brett Hull 19 1269 983 51.7 0.77
Gordie Howe 26 1767 1338 51.5 0.76
Bernie Geoffrion 16 883 675 42.2 0.76

When it come to a Bure vs Bossy goalscoring conversation, numbers do not help us here, longevity does not help us that much either way, international pre-nhl play, scoring in the playoff when they had the opportunity to do so, eye test etc... they match really well, there is not much magic end of conversation argument one can use.

Bure did lead the league one more time than Bossy, but Bossy had a second place to a 92 goal Gretzky scoring 64 of them, thats not fair.
Bossy scored in the playoff more often than Bure, had way more shoot at it as well.

All time greatest scorer, I would and easily put Bossy above Bure, he did in the playoff, when you look his game against strong defense-high intensity, regular season against the good defense + playoff + best on best tourney, his scoring is not far from prime Gretzky at all, which make him probably not far from anyone at all. He did it more often, he did in a row, you search tie breaker and those are good, it is a clear even if not by a lot Bossy > Bure all time historic goal scorer.

Who was better to score a goal at hockey, pick what you prefer / could depend of the team need, if I am the Islanders trying to win 5 cups in a row, give my Bossy, team Russia in a short tourney, the Panthers, 94 Canucks, not sure at all Bossy score more goals and can see a Bure argument easily.

Bure also scored while playing zero defense, and being a terrible playmaker.

Bossy was a team player, and played a team oriented game.

If you are going to penalize Bossy for playing in a high scoring era, it also makes sense to penalize Bure's 2 best seasons.

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