Messier hitting an injured Linden - Game 6, 1994

[Killion]

So the question is whether or not you can think poorly of an individual living in a time where the standards are simply wrong or do we forgive him those actions as being a product of his environment?

Messiers behaviour at times, the lack of brakes were as unacceptable in 1994 as they were in 1984, 74, 64, 54, 44, 34, 24, 14 & 04.... Do we forgive Charles Manson for the murders he himself committed as well as instigating the murders of probably over a dozen more than are known by his brainwashed, drug addled messed up followers because poor wee Charlie was born out of wedlock to a 16yr old mother who essentially abandoned him, Charlie first raised by his Grandparents but too hard to handle he winds up in Reformatories, Boystown & Prison, and that as a result of these environmental factors it was/is the institutions themselves & not Charles Manson who are responsible for creating the Monster that he became?... Or was he always a Monster? The Demon Seed Theory.... we are getting into deep waters Tawnos. Choose your flavor, pick whatever theory.

 

[Tawnos]

Oh cmon. Comparison to Charles Manson?

 

[me2]

More and more, when I see that famous "stare" I realize that the reason it's so intimidating is because it's like looking into the eyes of a shark. He's not a great leader, he's just a psychopath who rightfully terrified normal people. Naming an award after him is just... bad taste.

I don't know, a Messier trophy would be good if it was the anti-Lady Byng. The player who combines skill with dirty play. Maybe Matt Cooke or a more skilled guy like Duncan Keith who has his moments.

 

[Killion]

Oh cmon. Comparison to Charles Manson?

Yep. Leader. Followers..... now.... Tawnos.... no obsession with the Beatles & #9 though, leastways not that Im aware of....
Mark wore #Eleben most of his career so that kinda breaks the pattern... theory falls apart there some.... aye......

 

[Theokritos]

So the question is whether or not you can think poorly of an individual living in a time where the standards are simply wrong or do we forgive him those actions as being a product of his environment?

What about those other individuals who were living in the same time and who managed to defy those standards? We'd have to ignore them if we exclusively viewed people as products of their time. The very fact that Messier is a rather extreme example and not everyone in the league actually played like him (or even tried to play like him) shows that there must be something more to the individual character than just being a product of the time.

 

[blood gin]

Overall Messier was very very lucky that none of his attempted massacres snowballed into a McSorley/Brashear or Bertuzzi/Moore type thing

 

[Tawnos]

What about those other individuals who were living in the same time and who managed to defy those standards? We'd have to ignore them if we exclusively viewed people as products of their time. The very fact that Messier is a rather extreme example and not everyone in the league actually played like him (or even tried to play like him) shows that there must be something more to the individual character than just being a product of the time.

Nor do I disagree with that. Not everyone is going to play the same. What I consider Messier is the pinnacle player of a time that encouraged such play. Some of that is absolutely his personality, but the lens of time makes such things seem to be much more extreme than maybe they deserve.

 

[Theokritos]

Some of that is absolutely his personality, but the lens of time makes such things seem to be much more extreme than maybe they deserve.

I don't disagree with that either.

 

[blood gin]

As an aside, always found this kind of weird

Brother

Joby - Cousin

Cousin

Father

 

[sr edler]

Claude Lemieux and Justin Williams have Stanley Cup rings and Conn Smythe trophies.

Your comment is ridiculous.

Your failures of understanding the concept and implications of a team game are astounding.

Both C. Lemieux and J. Williams had big game qualities, no one are denying that, but none of them were team carriers. Linden was a team carrier and team captain and outside of P. Bure no player scored more playoff points relative to games played during his prime in Vancouver. 80 playoffs points in 79 games in his prime is better than any extended period Lemieux and Williams ever had in the playoffs. And he also was a big game player himself.

When C. Lemieux won a Cup with the Avs in 1996 he was outscored by eight teammates. 8 players! That is two whole lines and a d-pairing, on his own team, outscoring him. When he won a Cup in 1995 with NJD he was outscored by three forwards, and three other players on that team were Brodeur, Stevens & Niedermayer.

What team you play on kinda matters in a game where you, as a secondary scoring winger, are not even on the ice for two thirds of the game.

In one of J. Williams' Cup wins he was outscored by Cory bloody Stillman....

 

[sr edler]

I don't know, a Messier trophy would be good if it was the anti-Lady Byng. The player who combines skill with dirty play. Maybe Matt Cooke or a more skilled guy like Duncan Keith who has his moments.

Brad Marchand.

 

[sr edler]

Oh cmon. Comparison to Charles Manson?

Yeah, a bit off perhaps. Manson was a kooky eccentric guy. Messier struck me as pretty humorless.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Because it's one thing to be young and stupid, but there's no need to grow up to be old and stupid.

Someone who glories in needlessly injuring other people just to one-up them in a game is a garbage human being. Doesn't matter what year it is.

That's not what I was talking about. I was responding to a question that asked, essentially, what business I had changing my viewpoints as I got older.

I'm not saying you shouldn't change your viewpoints as you got older.

You should.

But your viewpoints have the luxury of aging 30 years, whereas Mark Messier on YouTube is still checking people in the 80s and 90s.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm not saying you shouldn't change your viewpoints as you got older.

You should.

But your viewpoints have the luxury of aging 30 years, whereas Mark Messier on YouTube is still checking people in the 80s and 90s.

I don't care what year the game takes place, this:



or this:



is not the way the game should EVER be played.

Not to mention, diving onto a guy who's trying to crawl away on his hands and knees, just to make sure he's good and injured, is not how any grown man should act, EVER. Whether it's a hockey game, or a street fight, or an actual war zone. Targeting someone who's clearly injured and helpless, just to get in one last shot, is a disturbing thing to do.

I'm not talking about being a little generous with the elbow pads when someone tried to check him, or gouging someone in the jewels if they tried to give him the business in front of the net. I'm talking about the incidents where he was blatantly trying to knock players out of games by running at them behind the play, or sneaking up and just clocking them in the face to try and put them down for the rest of the game, or lining them up square in the numbers and drilling them head-first into the boards.

That style of play was crap when Marchment did it in the 90s, crap when Matt Cooke did it in the 2010s, and crap when Messier did it in the 80s. His also being a good hockey player doesn't clear him of being a complete dirtbag.

 

[Killion]

Yeah, a bit off perhaps. Manson was a kooky eccentric guy. Messier struck me as pretty humorless.

... oh for FFS'..... for the love of Pete....... Mahovlich....... I WAS NOT comparing Mark Messier to Charles Manson.... I was taking issue with the theories that while lousy, poverty infused, abusive or overbearing, whatever childhood, developmental environment's in which someone was raised does not always result in someone growing up to become a Monster. Such conditions can & often do produce the exact opposite in individuals. I merely used Manson as an extreme example whereby one cannot & should not use ones formative years, bad situation & environment as an excuse for in some cases beyond heinous acts & activities as an adult. We all have to take responsibility for our own actions. Know when to put the brakes on. Mark Messier was no Charles Manson. Of course not. To even suggest that I was saying that.... you'd have to be either dyslexic or have the reading comprehension skills of a ... I dunno what.... a pickled herring? Idahoan potato?... That I would even have to address this?

 

[BraveCanadian]

I don't care what year the game takes place, this:

is not the way the game should EVER be played.

Not to mention, diving onto a guy who's trying to crawl away on his hands and knees, just to make sure he's good and injured, is not how any grown man should act, EVER. Whether it's a hockey game, or a street fight, or an actual war zone. Targeting someone who's clearly injured and helpless, just to get in one last shot, is a disturbing thing to do.

I'm not talking about being a little generous with the elbow pads when someone tried to check him, or gouging someone in the jewels if they tried to give him the business in front of the net. I'm talking about the incidents where he was blatantly trying to knock players out of games by running at them behind the play, or sneaking up and just clocking them in the face to try and put them down for the rest of the game, or lining them up square in the numbers and drilling them head-first into the boards.

That style of play was crap when Marchment did it in the 90s, crap when Matt Cooke did it in the 2010s, and crap when Messier did it in the 80s. His also being a good hockey player doesn't clear him of being a complete dirtbag.

Agree 100%.

Dirty ******* hockey.

Messier tended to run the guys who were smaller and/or not known for paying it back later as well. Real brave leader.

Like I said in an earlier post.. I understand this kind of play by the Clarkes, Messiers, Chelios, Stevens, etc.. I just don't accept it. It isn't needed and it is puke behaviour.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Overall Messier was very very lucky that none of his attempted massacres snowballed into a McSorley/Brashear or Bertuzzi/Moore type thing

McSorley did seem to have a hate on for Mess, but the refs always jumped in just as Marty was beginning to pummel him

 

[blood gin]

I have to come to Scott Stevens defense here. He did play within the framework of the rules back then and didn't commit some of the vicious shots we saw here with Messier.

Most of the time he didn't go for the head but the head ended up making some kind of contact. The hits on Francis and Kozlov were not headshots. He was lining up clean shoulder checks.

The Kariya hit and the Lindros Game 7 KO I can't defend. Those were bad

Generally when Stevens lost his temper though...he'd fight. Less and less so as his career went on. He never pulled Messier type things like skating halfway up the ice just to try and cave a guys skull in with his elbow

fwiw I also don't remember Stevens ever going for the knees either on a guy.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I had a Messier poster and a Chelios poster on my wall as a kid. They are nice guys, just different kinds of nice guys.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I don't care what year the game takes place, this:



or this:



is not the way the game should EVER be played.

Not to mention, diving onto a guy who's trying to crawl away on his hands and knees, just to make sure he's good and injured, is not how any grown man should act, EVER. Whether it's a hockey game, or a street fight, or an actual war zone. Targeting someone who's clearly injured and helpless, just to get in one last shot, is a disturbing thing to do.

I'm not talking about being a little generous with the elbow pads when someone tried to check him, or gouging someone in the jewels if they tried to give him the business in front of the net. I'm talking about the incidents where he was blatantly trying to knock players out of games by running at them behind the play, or sneaking up and just clocking them in the face to try and put them down for the rest of the game, or lining them up square in the numbers and drilling them head-first into the boards.

That style of play was crap when Marchment did it in the 90s, crap when Matt Cooke did it in the 2010s, and crap when Messier did it in the 80s. His also being a good hockey player doesn't clear him of being a complete dirtbag.

Well when you build a time machine so I can get 1984 tarheelhockey and quoipouquoi's opinion on if the game should ever be played that way, let me know, because I'm conditioned to wince more at those hits than I would have 10, 20, 30 years ago too. Those checks are closer in time to Rocket Richard punching out a linesman than they are to the conversation we're having today, and he has an even bigger trophy named after him.

Dirty players in a dirty sport. If they were around today, they'd still tiptoe across the line in the sand (and sometimes they'd be off the beach, swimming with sharks), but the line would be one we're all more comfortable with. Give it 30 years and a slashing penalty on the gloves might be part of hockey's ugly past.

 

[blood gin]

I had a Messier poster and a Chelios poster on my wall as a kid. They are nice guys, just different kinds of nice guys.

Do we really know if he is though? None of us know him personally

Messier just always struck me as a very serious fanatical workaholic. I personally never understood workaholics. I think the intensity and drive that he had was something you just had to be born with.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Do we really know if he is though? None of us know him personally

Messier just always struck me as a very serious fanatical workaholic. I personally never understood workaholics. I think the intensity and drive that he had was something you just had to be born with.

Because if he stops swimming forward, he dies.

 

[blood gin]

Because if he stops swimming forward, he dies.

I believe it definitely. If it works for him it works for him. I personally have never felt that way. And I can't be taught to feel that way. And no I have never accomplished any great things as a result Maybe it's the wiring of the brain combined with what your parents instill with you that creates ferocious competitors like this.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Well when you build a time machine so I can get 1984 tarheelhockey and quoipouquoi's opinion on if the game should ever be played that way, let me know, because I'm conditioned to wince more at those hits than I would have 10, 20, 30 years ago too. Those checks are closer in time to Rocket Richard punching out a linesman than they are to the conversation we're having today, and he has an even bigger trophy named after him.

Dirty players in a dirty sport. If they were around today, they'd still tiptoe across the line in the sand (and sometimes they'd be off the beach, swimming with sharks), but the line would be one we're all more comfortable with. Give it 30 years and a slashing penalty on the gloves might be part of hockey's ugly past.

What part of deliberately throwing your body at an injured player who's crawling on the ice was ever an accepted part of the game? In no way does that compare to a minor slash on the gloves. Nor does throwing a leaping hit into a guy's face to take him out of the game compare to taking a swing at a linesman.

You're too smart to be making an argument like the one above.

 

[Kirikanoir]

Those checks are closer in time to Rocket Richard punching out a linesman than they are to the conversation we're having today, and he has an even bigger trophy named after him.

At least Rocket Richard was punished for his actions by being suspended for the remainder of the regular season and the entire playoffs.