Messier hitting an injured Linden - Game 6, 1994

[tarheelhockey]

The more I learn about Messier the more I feel that he genuinely was a terrible person.

Yeah, as time goes on I see him more and more in that kind of light.

At the time, maybe it's because I was younger and the players just seemed bulletproof to me, but I saw the cheap shots as part of the entertainment. Messier was a guy I "loved to hate" and seemed almost like a wrestling heel out there.

Today, I look back at some of those stunts and think, that man is missing a piece of his soul where a conscience is supposed to go. It's one thing to whack a guy across the shins or give him a jab in the nose, in the heat of battle. Those are things that hurt and then heal up later. But Messier would line guys up with an elbow to the side of the head, driving them right into the glass. Leave them crumpled in a heap, squirming around like a dog that's been hit by a truck. A mentally healthy person just doesn't do something like that, regardless of the competitive circumstances.

More and more, when I see that famous "stare" I realize that the reason it's so intimidating is because it's like looking into the eyes of a shark. He's not a great leader, he's just a psychopath who rightfully terrified normal people. Naming an award after him is just... bad taste.

 

[double5son10]

I remember reading that during the Gainers strike Messier would repeatedly drive past and yell obscenities at the strikers on the picket line. Like, daily. Classless individual on and off the ice.

 

[Killion]

More and more, when I see that famous "stare" I realize that the reason it's so intimidating is because it's like looking into the eyes of a shark. He's not a great leader, he's just a psychopath who rightfully terrified normal people. Naming an award after him is just... bad taste.

Bingo! Exactly what your seeing with that "stare" unlike another famous stare, as in "The Rockets Red Glare" which was coined (and accurately according to almost every Goaltender who faced him) as a descriptor of Richards fierce determination & visage from the Blue~Line in, freight train who if he cant get around a Defender will go through them or... carry them on his back to the net... whatever it took, Maurice was your Man.... Now, of course he's known for some clearly psychotic incidents however, its important to understand that he himself did not instigate these various events that were peppered throughout his career and therein lies the difference, a BIG difference between the likes of The Rocket, Geoffrion, Hull, Howe, Orr & plenty of others, Superstars, Stars, the vast majority of players in fact and guys like Schultz, Clarke, Cooke & others...

But yes, guys like Messier, like Bobby Clarke, psycho nut jobs, forget sportsmanship, respect for an opponent, kick them when their down clean into the hospital if possible.... another guy, Chris Chelios, in his autobiography admitting that while he never faced Gretzky in a Final Series would have very likely have gone out of his way to break Gretzkys hand with a well placed slash, putting him out of commission altogether or temporarily, at minimum crippling him for the rest of the series in order to win the Cup and why?..... Because according to Chelios, "fingers & hands will heal, but the pain of losing never does". Unfortunately, this is the attitude, philosophy & approach of many a player and Coach from Junior through Pro, and you even see it sometimes at the elite amateur levels. If youve played elite, Jr or Pro, the difference in a "game face" & stare from a Rockets Red Glare to "uh oh, this Boy aint right in the head" instantly recognizable. And that would be Messier with his 1000yd Stare. Clarke & plenty of others over the years as well. See it, you automatically have to be wary, Dudes not gunna be playing it above board.

 

[Kerricthebig]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSdIHTx1-DE

Here's the play. Don't see much but its worth it for Jim Robson's incredible call (from radio).

Linden appears to be attempting to stand at the 10 second mark of the video, immediately before the hit from Messier. Messier was likely going in for the old "oops, I didn't see you there" hit.

Also of note from the video, I am amazed the fan that came sliding through the Rangers zone as time expired was not flattened by the nearby Rangers player

 

[mrhockey193195]

More and more, when I see that famous "stare" I realize that the reason it's so intimidating is because it's like looking into the eyes of a shark. He's not a great leader, he's just a psychopath who rightfully terrified normal people.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I think that era had a few players that were similar in that regard. Do you feel the same way about Chelios, Stevens, Fleury? Maybe even Lindros?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I think that era had a few players that were similar in that regard. Do you feel the same way about Chelios, Stevens, Fleury? Maybe even Lindros?

To some extent, yeah. There was something in the culture of that era that seemed to promote players who had absolutely no regard for the humanity of their opponents.

Reminds me of an old quote about Dick Butkus -- he didn't just want to put you in the hospital, he wanted to put you in the graveyard. That comes pretty close to the culture that a lot of these players lived in, circa 1985-2005. Just go out and scramble someone's eggs until they can't stand up anymore, then you win. It's a sociopathic approach to life, sports, anything.

 

[mrhockey193195]

To some extent, yeah. There was something in the culture of that era that seemed to promote players who had absolutely no regard for the humanity of their opponents.

Reminds me of an old quote about Dick Butkus -- he didn't just want to put you in the hospital, he wanted to put you in the graveyard. That comes pretty close to the culture that a lot of these players lived in, circa 1985-2005. Just go out and scramble someone's eggs until they can't stand up anymore, then you win. It's a sociopathic approach to life, sports, anything.

Yep. I too am glad that sort of "play outside the rules to win" mentality seems to have left the game. At the same time, I don't really blame that aforementioned players since during that era - for right or for wrong - it seemed to be accepted and lauded.

That being said, the game today lacks a lot of that "win at all cost" mentality. There isn't a single "feared" player in the game. I'm not saying we should go back to the era of flying elbows and cross checks to the head, but there's a middle ground in which players can be intense, can be feared, while still playing within the rules.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Yep. I too am glad that sort of "play outside the rules to win" mentality seems to have left the game. At the same time, I don't really blame that aforementioned players since during that era - for right or for wrong - it seemed to be accepted and lauded.

I think that's where I draw a bit of distinction between Messier and say, Lindros. Part of survival in the NHL at that time, especially for guys who had a target on their back all the time, was a willingness to dish it out. We saw what caught up with Lindros eventually, and then what caught up with Stevens eventually. Guys like that were in a constant state of peril, and they wouldn't have made it as far as they did if they weren't willing to push back. It was part of what made the game entertaining at that time.

Messier, though, he seemed to have a willingness to go beyond "pushing back" and into the realm of outright cheating. In the same category as guys like Marchment and Suter, taking out the opponent by any means necessary and then getting back to hockey against a shorthanded team.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Yeah, as time goes on I see him more and more in that kind of light.

At the time, maybe it's because I was younger and the players just seemed bulletproof to me, but I saw the cheap shots as part of the entertainment. Messier was a guy I "loved to hate" and seemed almost like a wrestling heel out there.

Today, I look back at some of those stunts and think, that man is missing a piece of his soul where a conscience is supposed to go. It's one thing to whack a guy across the shins or give him a jab in the nose, in the heat of battle. Those are things that hurt and then heal up later. But Messier would line guys up with an elbow to the side of the head, driving them right into the glass. Leave them crumpled in a heap, squirming around like a dog that's been hit by a truck. A mentally healthy person just doesn't do something like that, regardless of the competitive circumstances.

More and more, when I see that famous "stare" I realize that the reason it's so intimidating is because it's like looking into the eyes of a shark. He's not a great leader, he's just a psychopath who rightfully terrified normal people. Naming an award after him is just... bad taste.

I think you have to remember that much of the opposition was celebrating the type of player he was too. You say it's because you were young, but when the coaches in Detroit, Winnipeg, and Calgary and the stars in Boston and Chicago are talking about how great that combination of offense and intimidation is, why would you have some revelatory 2017-shaped mindset back in 1990?

Messier wasn't a shark (well... briefly, I think); he was a player shaped by his environment, much like you as a viewer are shaped by yours. Injuring players is wrong now. Injuring players in 1984 was worth Badger Bob's adulation, because violence was part of the package that was hockey.

And he doesn't have a trophy just for hurting people. His peers have a tremendous amount of respect for him, because they knew he had the same tremendous amount of respect for them, the game of hockey, and the Stanley Cup. Calling him a psychopath is pretty off the mark.

 

[sr edler]

His peers have a tremendous amount of respect for him, because they knew he had the same tremendous amount of respect for them

Ha, I came to think of that interview with Domi where he said Messier had told him not to showboat after fights, as a rookie. Elbowing people in the head was fine though. But yeah, times change.

What rubbed me wrong though was the double standard, player to player. Ulf Samuelsson & Dale Hunter was considered dirty scum but Messier some kind of gold standard. Never got that, really.

 

[Tawnos]

I think you have to remember that much of the opposition was celebrating the type of player he was too. You say it's because you were young, but when the coaches in Detroit, Winnipeg, and Calgary and the stars in Boston and Chicago are talking about how great that combination of offense and intimidation is, why would you have some revelatory 2017-shaped mindset back in 1990?

Messier wasn't a shark (well... briefly, I think); he was a player shaped by his environment, much like you as a viewer are shaped by yours. Injuring players is wrong now. Injuring players in 1984 was worth Badger Bob's adulation, because violence was part of the package that was hockey.

And he doesn't have a trophy just for hurting people. His peers have a tremendous amount of respect for him, because they knew he had the same tremendous amount of respect for them, the game of hockey, and the Stanley Cup. Calling him a psychopath is pretty off the mark.

Yeah I agree with this post, although that kind of thing only goes so far (there's a further broad society conversation involving slavery or Nazi soldiers that we obviously don't need to get into). It's a game we're talking about.

One of the reasons the elbows would be so bad now is because of the concussion issue. But in the era Messier came through, no one understood what concussions do to a person. Getting your bell rung was just a normal part of the game. I can't even imagine how many concussions Messier himself likely had. We are definitively better off now.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think you have to remember that much of the opposition was celebrating the type of player he was too. You say it's because you were young, but when the coaches in Detroit, Winnipeg, and Calgary and the stars in Boston and Chicago are talking about how great that combination of offense and intimidation is, why would you have some revelatory 2017-shaped mindset back in 1990?

Because it's one thing to be young and stupid, but there's no need to grow up to be old and stupid.

Someone who glories in needlessly injuring other people just to one-up them in a game is a garbage human being. Doesn't matter what year it is.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Bingo! Exactly what your seeing with that "stare" unlike another famous stare, as in "The Rockets Red Glare" which was coined (and accurately according to almost every Goaltender who faced him) as a descriptor of Richards fierce determination & visage from the Blue~Line in, freight train who if he cant get around a Defender will go through them or... carry them on his back to the net... whatever it took, Maurice was your Man.... Now, of course he's known for some clearly psychotic incidents however, its important to understand that he himself did not instigate these various events that were peppered throughout his career and therein lies the difference, a BIG difference between the likes of The Rocket, Geoffrion, Hull, Howe, Orr & plenty of others, Superstars, Stars, the vast majority of players in fact and guys like Schultz, Clarke, Cooke & others...

But yes, guys like Messier, like Bobby Clarke, psycho nut jobs, forget sportsmanship, respect for an opponent, kick them when their down clean into the hospital if possible.... another guy, Chris Chelios, in his autobiography admitting that while he never faced Gretzky in a Final Series would have very likely have gone out of his way to break Gretzkys hand with a well placed slash, putting him out of commission altogether or temporarily, at minimum crippling him for the rest of the series in order to win the Cup and why?..... Because according to Chelios, "fingers & hands will heal, but the pain of losing never does". Unfortunately, this is the attitude, philosophy & approach of many a player and Coach from Junior through Pro, and you even see it sometimes at the elite amateur levels. If youve played elite, Jr or Pro, the difference in a "game face" & stare from a Rockets Red Glare to "uh oh, this Boy aint right in the head" instantly recognizable. And that would be Messier with his 1000yd Stare. Clarke & plenty of others over the years as well. See it, you automatically have to be wary, Dudes not gunna be playing it above board.

curious to hear your take on scott stevens.

terrifying glare, reportedly he even scared the hell out of his wife on playoff game days. says to dino ciccarelli, an ex-teammate and friend, that he'll injure him next after the big kozlov hit in the '95 finals. but in my estimation also an extremely clean player, relative to the rules of his time.

 

[FerrisRox]

From what I can remember, Linden was a good playoff performer. It's not all on him for not winning any Cups. Hockey is a team game. Linden did his part.

You are not remembering it correctly then.

Beyond the 1994 Stanley Cup run, his playoff career was decent, but hardly the stuff of being a playoff warrior.

In 94, he posted 25 points in 24 playoff games. In the rest of his career he played 100 playoff games and put up 74 points. His best run, after the 94 playoffs was with the '03 Canucks who went a couple of rounds. In 14 games that spring, Linden had one goal and 3 points.

I think to have a "legacy of a playoff warrior" you need to succeed a lot more in the playoffs than Trevor Linden did. You certainly should at least win.

 

[FerrisRox]

Linden had 80 playoff points in 79 games in his first stint in Vancouver and repeatedly came up big in game 7s. That's better than Claude Lemieux. Better than Justin Williams.

Claude Lemieux and Justin Williams have Stanley Cup rings and Conn Smythe trophies.

Your comment is ridiculous.

 

[Tawnos]

Because it's one thing to be young and stupid, but there's no need to grow up to be old and stupid.

Someone who glories in needlessly injuring other people just to one-up them in a game is a garbage human being. Doesn't matter what year it is.

First of all, very little of Messier's career would qualify him as anything but a young man. You aren't an old man at 38.

Secondly, it's the "needlessly" thing. By the standards of the time and place, what Messier did wasn't considered needless.

 

[Theokritos]

Messier wasn't a shark (well... briefly, I think); he was a player shaped by his environment, much like you as a viewer are shaped by yours. (...) Calling him a psychopath is pretty off the mark.

Even if it all came down to environment, we could at least say that there is a significant overlap between the characteristics of sociopathic behaviour and some of the traits celebrated in players like Messier.

On another note, while I do agree that players are shaped by their environment as much as any human being is shaped by his social environment, the personality of the individual cannot be left out of the equation. There's a reason people like Bobby Clarke and Mark Messier are singled out the way they often are: because not everybody behaved just like them. There were other players who came up in the same environment and who didn't restore to quite the same means.

 

[tarheelhockey]

First of all, very little of Messier's career would qualify him as anything but a young man. You aren't an old man at 38.

That's not what I was talking about. I was responding to a question that asked, essentially, what business I had changing my viewpoints as I got older.

Secondly, it's the "needlessly" thing. By the standards of the time and place, what Messier did wasn't considered needless.

Of course it was. Do you really think that diving into an injured player, who's crawling on his hands and knees, was considered "necessary"?

 

[Killion]

curious to hear your take on scott stevens.

terrifying glare, reportedly he even scared the hell out of his wife on playoff game days. says to dino ciccarelli, an ex-teammate and friend, that he'll injure him next after the big kozlov hit in the '95 finals. but in my estimation also an extremely clean player, relative to the rules of his time.

He played by The Code. If a guy crosses your line with his head down or is out there in front of or behind your net wheeling around like a little Doodlebug with his head down... well, too bad so sad. Thats something most players learn in like Pee Wee, keep your headup at all times or your going to get nailed... If you cast a big shadow as Stevens did and you see someone taking liberties with your teammates, cheap shot or whatever, then yes, you intervene, seeking immediate justice or letting the offender know he's goin down if an extrovert like Stevens was or if an introvert like Howe, take his number. Just a matter of time but justice will be served.

 

[Tawnos]

Of course it was. Do you really think that diving into an injured player, who's crawling on his hands and knees, was considered "necessary"?

I don't, but I don't doubt that Messier's philosophy, a product of its time, was that it was necessary to take every advantage you see.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I don't, but I don't doubt that Messier's philosophy, a product of its time, was that it was necessary to take every advantage you see.

And that's a wrongheaded way to approach the game, not to mention life in general.

 

[Tawnos]

And that's a wrongheaded way to approach the game, not to mention life in general.

I don't disagree, but that is an undoubtedly 2017 mindset.

 

[MadLuke]

I agree there is some revisionist history here, there is a reason Messier was regarded has the biggest leader out there, has now a trophy at is name, that it was controversial when he didn't made team Canada.

Back then, it was a reputation of being a good dirty player, using fear in a good way to make is team and himself successful.

At the time (and until recently) when I was watching Scott Stevens hit at the head they were great hockey play and even what I was considering clean one (the elbow close to the body, the skate on the ice, etc...). Now they are getting hard to watch frankly and just going too far for a pro game of an entertainment product imo. That should not retroactively change how great of a player Stevens was and a product of is time, he would have hit player today too and would have been one of the best at it, he would just not blind hit to the head people.

Messier also would have been different playing today with the numbers of camera seeing everything.

 

[Killion]

First of all, very little of Messier's career would qualify him as anything but a young man. You aren't an old man at 38.

Secondly, it's the "needlessly" thing. By the standards of the time and place, what Messier did wasn't considered needless.

Right, absolutely "needless" and his entire career including Tier II Jr. in Alberta, this was a guy who ya, put up some decent points but spent a whole lot of time in the Penalty Box. 194 Minutes in his last year. Played briefly for Portland in the WHL as well. He is most definitely a product of his upbringing & circumstances, his Father a hardrock player (and Coach) who like Mark spent a lot of time in the Box while playing in the old Western Hockey League. Mark also had an older brother however he went a different route, clean player, scholarship, played NCAA. But Mark? He was as old school as his Father, and like Father like Son. It just what he is, cant change it, wouldnt if he could, proud of it & hey, he does have plenty to be proud about.

Chip off the old block, playing by a Code that went beyond the book, its antecedents going back to the dawn of pro-hockey where just about everything & anything goes, that its War, strictly business, and that amping things up & breaching The Code can be an effective tool psychologically as well as physically. Almost no limit to whatever heinous unsportsmanlike act one should be willing to commit for the Win. It was wrong back then, it was wrong in the 70's, 80's & 90's; its wrong today. It was a school of hockey, an entire approach to the game which was most prominent in Western Canada, the WHL & Tier II in most notably BC & Alberta for decades, a considerable number of players from that region going on to careers in the old WHL, the EHL, PCHL, WHA, NAHL & elsewhere. A game of Ultra Violence, beyond Code, be it the notorious WHL Major Junior New Westminster Bruins of the 70's or the Portland Buckaroos of the professional WHL of the 50's & 60's.

 

[Tawnos]

Right, absolutely "needless" and his entire career including Tier II Jr. in Alberta, this was a guy who ya, put up some decent points but spent a whole lot of time in the Penalty Box. 194 Minutes in his last year. Played briefly for Portland in the WHL as well. He is most definitely a product of his upbringing & circumstances, his Father a hardrock player (and Coach) who like Mark spent a lot of time in the Box while playing in the old Western Hockey League. Mark also had an older brother however he went a different route, clean player, scholarship, played NCAA. But Mark? He was as old school as his Father, and like Father like Son. It just what he is, cant change it, wouldnt if he could, proud of it & hey, he does have plenty to be proud about.

Chip off the old block, playing by a Code that went beyond the book, its antecedents going back to the dawn of pro-hockey where just about everything & anything goes, that its War, strictly business, and that amping things up & breaching The Code can be an effective tool psychologically as well as physically. Almost no limit to whatever heinous unsportsmanlike act one should be willing to commit for the Win. It was wrong back then, it was wrong in the 70's, 80's & 90's; its wrong today. It was a school of hockey, an entire approach to the game which was most prominent in Western Canada, the WHL & Tier II in most notably BC & Alberta for decades, a considerable number of players from that region going on to careers in the old WHL, the EHL, PCHL, WHA, NAHL & elsewhere. A game of Ultra Violence, beyond Code, be it the notorious WHL Major Junior New Westminster Bruins of the 70's or the Portland Buckaroos of the professional WHL of the 50's & 60's.

So the question is whether or not you can think poorly of an individual living in a time where the standards are simply wrong or do we forgive him those actions as being a product of his environment?