Messier hitting an injured Linden - Game 6, 1994

[tarheelhockey]

And how would Messier be remembered if he'd been running around elbowing people in the face and smashing sticks over their heads in the service of the Capitals? As a hero and great leader? Or as a less restrained version of Dale Hunter?

Everyone here knows the answer to that.

Which means the argument above reduces to "yeah, but he was on a good team, so..."

Shame on that.

 

[Killion]

Shame on that.

... passionate about this topic huh tarheel? and ya, excellent point. he was & still is a very polarizing individual.

 

[blood gin]

on that note, i am convinced that the sutter brothers' dad let gary (the one who quit hockey) eat cake all day sitting on a throne at the top of a hill while starving the other six and making them try to push push tractors with the e-brake on up that hill just watching gary up there day after day with murderous rage.

This was later the inspiration for Arnold pushing the Wheel of Pain as Conan the Barbarian

 

[IComeInPeace]

Here's a Messier stick to the head that seems very comparable to what McSorely did to Brashear.



Thomas Gradin's offense for the stick to the head? He won a faceoff against Messier and then prevented him from getting by him to retrieve the puck.

Thomas Gradin was as clean a player as there has ever been in the game, and weighed in at a whopping 170 pounds.

I admire Messier's will to win.
But, there were many cowardly acts along the way.
Yes he fought McSorely, but in a long NHL career that's about it. Jim Peplinski and Gary Roberts were adept fighters at times, but neither one was scaring the bejesus out of anyone. How did Messier not have more fights considering how mean he was? He probably had the least fights of any 'power forward' considering the era in which he played.

Look at all of Messiers cheap shots, and see who they were against. Somehow he was mean as heck against a 170 pound Swede who was a pacifist, and players like him, but managed to keep his nose clean more often than not against tough guys, especially ones with a short fuse.

Messier played a lot of games against the Canucks over the years, but never did anything like that when Curt Fraser was riding shotgun on Gradin's wing. He waited until Fraser had split town, and the Canucks toughness consisted of an 18 year old Cam Neely and an in over his head Garth Butcher.

Hockey was different back then. But, watching that chop to Gradin's head, as it happened on TV, it wasn't within the norms of the game. It was a chin dropping WTF moment even at the time. Messier seemed to have more than his fair share of those moments.

Listen to Mike Eruzione's comments right after the clip.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Here's a Messier stick to the head that seems very comparable to what McSorely did to Brashear.



Thomas Gradin's offense for the stick to the head? He won a faceoff against Messier and then prevented him from getting by him to retrieve the puck.

Thomas Gradin was as clean a player as there has ever been in the game, and weighed in at a whopping 170 pounds.

Yikes... but hey guys, that was just hockey back then..

I admire Messier's will to win.
But, there were many cowardly acts along the way.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts earlier in the thread.

Strange how winning whitewashes it into being a leader / warrior instead of being a dangerous goon for so many people.

I've never been ok with players crossing the line and intending to injure.

Look at all of Messiers cheap shots, and see who they were against. Somehow he was mean as heck against a 170 pound Swede who was a pacifist, and players like him, but managed to keep his nose clean more often than not against tough guys, especially ones with a short fuse.

I mentioned this up thread as well.. he picked his spots big time.. I'm honestly surprised Messier didn't get jumped by a heavyweight and beat down on a regular basis for his thuggery.

Ironically maybe his additional status as a legitimate star level skill player made him off limits to them..

 

[MadLuke]

I mentioned this up thread as well.. he picked his spots big time.. I'm honestly surprised Messier didn't get jumped by a heavyweight and beat down on a regular basis for his thuggery.

Actual fear of him, that he would retaliate one day with is stick ?

 

[quoipourquoi]

.... Badger Bob the Coach.... Barry Long the ex hockey player or Australian Spiritualist? Not following you here qpq....

Ex-player/coach, though we may have to dive into Australia too. They have this place in Kentucky where you can get into a pit with a dozen kangaroos. Nature's boxers, but nice as can be when outside of the competitive mindset. The Messiers of their world - vicious in one arena, crybabies in another.

Here's from the 1985 series:

"He has a little mean streak," a reporter suggested to Long.

"Little?" Long responded.

Long, a fairly rough player in his own day, laughed. "That's what makes him even scarier. The fact that he does have that mean streak is what separates him from ordinary people. But speed and size and meanness are what you look for when you're trying to draft a player. You want to draft a player that has all those three qualities. They got lucky with him."

In fact, Long said, the presence of Messier in the Oiler lineup is one of the reasons that Jet captain and scoring leader Dale Hawerchuk has not returned wearing a flak jacket to protect his cracked rib. Hawerchuk has been scratched from tonight's fourth - and probably final - game of the series. "It's Mark out there I don't trust," Long said. "He'd run right over his mother, so he'd for sure run over Dale Hawerchuk. And it's such a well-publicized injury. I don't think there's a kid in Canada who doesn't know what's broken."

When Long says things such as this about Messier, he says them with a tone of admiration, not bitterness. "I wouldn't expect anything else from the Oilers," he said. "If the situation were reversed, I wouldn't expect my guys to go out there and say, 'Oh-oh, we can't hit him.' You have to hit him."

 

[tarheelhockey]

Actual fear of him, that he would retaliate one day with is stick ?

Gretzky didn't get jumped either. The Oilers had a certain method of protecting their stars...

 

[Killion]

Ex-player/coach.... Here's from the 1985 series:

... ahh, I see now what you were referring to & thanks for posting that. Was completely unaware of that incident or if I knew about it at the time forgot. Theres just been so many with Messier. Unbelievable. Goes to what I was mentioning earlier that yes, absolutely with the kind of unwarranted deification he is according to many, certain school of thought someone to be admired, to be looked up to & if a young player, someone to emulate. Guys' a Winner. Any means to an end. Total War. There are no Rules of Engagement. Ref didnt see it, camera's, eye in the sky missed it?... never happened. Like a criminal who sure, gets busted, but only for like 1/100th of the crimes he's actually committed & he's fine with that. Got off light, Scot-Free with just a tonne of ****.

 

[IslesNbeer]

Here's a Messier stick to the head that seems very comparable to what McSorely did to Brashear.



Thomas Gradin's offense for the stick to the head? He won a faceoff against Messier and then prevented him from getting by him to retrieve the puck.

Thomas Gradin was as clean a player as there has ever been in the game, and weighed in at a whopping 170 pounds.

I admire Messier's will to win.
But, there were many cowardly acts along the way.
Yes he fought McSorely, but in a long NHL career that's about it. Jim Peplinski and Gary Roberts were adept fighters at times, but neither one was scaring the bejesus out of anyone. How did Messier not have more fights considering how mean he was? He probably had the least fights of any 'power forward' considering the era in which he played.

Look at all of Messiers cheap shots, and see who they were against. Somehow he was mean as heck against a 170 pound Swede who was a pacifist, and players like him, but managed to keep his nose clean more often than not against tough guys, especially ones with a short fuse.

Messier played a lot of games against the Canucks over the years, but never did anything like that when Curt Fraser was riding shotgun on Gradin's wing. He waited until Fraser had split town, and the Canucks toughness consisted of an 18 year old Cam Neely and an in over his head Garth Butcher.

Hockey was different back then. But, watching that chop to Gradin's head, as it happened on TV, it wasn't within the norms of the game. It was a chin dropping WTF moment even at the time. Messier seemed to have more than his fair share of those moments.

Listen to Mike Eruzione's comments right after the clip.

Anytime I hear Messier mentioned this is the first thing that comes to my mind. This was the exact moment I lost all respect for Messier as a player and as a person.

 

[Cruor]

I think you can admit to Messier being a dirty POS and at the same time admire or respect his hockey skills, without trying to excuse him and reference the culture of hockey at the time. I think it's clear he crossed some lines that were deemed unacceptable even at the time (even if some admired him for it).

Similarly, I can enjoy Polanskis movies and his skill as a director while at the same time acknowledging that he is a complete dirtbag that should face justice. You don't have to be an apologist for either of them (not trying to equate the two).

 

[quoipourquoi]

I think you can admit to Messier being a dirty POS and at the same time admire or respect his hockey skills, without trying to excuse him and reference the culture of hockey at the time.

A violent, intimidating presence is a hockey skill.

 

[Hobnobs]

A violent, intimidating presence is a hockey skill.

Not, really no. Anyone with any physical stature can do it. Messier for some reason always got away with it though. That was "his" skill. Punching and elbowing people in the face and not get penalized. Also dont think its a skill to do the typical Messier and punch people from behind in scrums etc etc. He was just a skilled POS.

 

[Theokritos]

I think you can admit to Messier being a dirty POS and at the same time admire or respect his hockey skills, without trying to excuse him and reference the culture of hockey at the time. I think it's clear he crossed some lines that were deemed unacceptable even at the time (even if some admired him for it).

Seconded.

A violent, intimidating presence is a hockey skill.

In a physical sport like hockey this is obviously true, but there has to be a line somewhere and that line is usually drawn by the rules of the game. Now, if you manage to get away without punishment or with mild punishment when you commit massive breaches of the rules to your own benefit, is that still a hockey skill? If so, slick diving and simulating is probably a hockey skill too. Or bribing or blackmailing a referee into rigging a game.

 

[tarheelhockey]

"Hey man, I just want to let you know I hired a guy tonight. If you put that puck in the net, he's coming for you. See him over there beside the locker room door? That's him. I don't need to tell you what he's carrying. Think twice tonight. This isn't a game. I owe people money. Watch yourself."

-- The best hockey player in the world

 

[quoipourquoi]

If we're at the point where the parallel being drawn to the historical use of on-ice violence to regulate an opponent's actions is blackmailing referees and hiring the mob to break kneecaps, then we can probably say HOH jumped the shark - Messier, Richard, Cleghorn, Pronger, Howe, SJ Sharkie... all of them.

 

[Theokritos]

If we're at the point where the parallel being drawn to the historical use of on-ice violence to regulate an opponent's actions...

So where do you draw the line? On-ice actions as opposed to off-ice actions?

 

[Killion]

A violent, intimidating presence is a hockey skill.

.... I wouldnt frame it like that, characterize potentially violent-nasty or possibly even psychotic propensities in a player as being "developed skill's". Guys like that are just Bad Actors and if your "afraid of them" you shouldnt be out there. In fact, if your facing a Goon Squad or maybe just a few guys who are known to cross the line talented or not with real hockey skill's then what you'd be wanting to do is to strike preemptively yourself and do it early in the game.... when the Refs not lookin.... behind the play. Throw them off their game, wind them up with trash talk & some borderline slashes. Elbow to the jaw, butt-end to the ribs, backhander to the face in a scrum. Whatever. Or just straight up, like Robinson on Schultz.... Larry inviting Mark to same only we saw how Messier responded did we not? Hid behind his stick. So no, sorry, no respect.

So.... Start a parade to the Box. Play it 4 on 4 or 4 on 3 as much as possible throughout the game & let the clean skaters with skill takeover, guy in the Crease who relishes facing 2 on 1's, breakaways and who can skate, play the puck himself like a 3rd Defenceman at times. Like a Plante, Giacomin, Brodeur or Hasek etc. As a player, you get over the "violent, intimidating presences" as a Rookie. Those "qualities" are not "skills", there "tactics". Its all posturing. All about attitude. Confidence. Games 95% mental. Sure your "wary" of them but... entirely manageable. Boogeyman lives inside of all of us and if you need to channel him then you do so. I dunno. Is that a "skill"? Channeling the psycho-killer that lives in the dark recesses of the subconscious mind, unlocking the cage? People pay big bucks to take regressive Primal Therapy sessions... clear the mind.... screamers.... big bucks at one time to buy tickets to a hockey game to watch it unfold on the ice.

 

[sr edler]

A violent, intimidating presence is a hockey skill.

More like a trait, than a skill.

 

[Killion]

More like a trait, than a skill.

Yeah. Its a character trait. Not a skill. I mean, sure, it can & is used like a weapon against an opponent whereby whatever player with the psycho-rep doesnt have to do anything, his very "being", presence on the ice or bench causes some players to grip their sticks a lot tighter, play scared but who wants guys like that on your team? Just go out & do your job and if whomever starts it, you finish it. Or maybe if it even looks like he's about start something go for the preemptive strike, take him out of the game. Real simple. Nothing to fear but fear itself.... and I dont know if God exists, but wouldnt it be better for his reputation if he/she/it didnt?... so many questions edler....

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Messier is probably the most underrated player on this site.

It is quite odd seeing as how this site seems to love the "ROWH ROWH Lets go guys I'm a tough Canadian kid!" type of player.. I mean look how overrated Iginla has become.

I guess it only helps if you are perceived as a "nice guy" who smiles and doesn't say much

 

[Killion]

Messier is probably the most underrated player on this site.

It is quite odd seeing as how this site seems to love the "ROWH ROWH Lets go guys I'm a tough Canadian kid!" type of player.. I mean look how overrated Iginla has become.

I guess it only helps if you are perceived as a "nice guy" who smiles and doesn't say much

Dont buy into the theory that theres any "groupthink" goin on around these here parts CokenoPepsi. If you've followed any of the ATD's closely, even conversations/debates like this one, never 100%, rarely even 75% consensus on any given ranking or appreciation for, judgement of a player be it a forward, defenceman, goalie, issue of leadership & character or whatever. Some rate Messier highly including leadership, others highly as a player, not so much in the leadership dept as in not a model to respect, that like Bobby Clarke, dirty player & so on & so forth. That they wouldnt have done the things they did if they were the norm. Milquetoast's. Nice & polite Canadian Boys who wouldnt say **** if their mouths were full of it. Wouldnt dream of instigating anything, retaliating viciously to what they thought a cheap shot or giving one themselves rather than being beaten & embarrassed....

Well. I'm here to tell you that simply isnt the case. Almost all hockey players are capable of playing it the way Messier or Clarke played and beyond including Iginla however most stop short of breaching the Code, follow the Rules of Engagement, written & unwritten, unspoken. Messier did not and yes, that casts a shadow over his not insignificant & prolific Hall of Fame career. Thing is, there was a place for players like that in the NHL since inception of not just the NHL but so too the NHA, and it was that rugged style of play upon which the professional game was developed & promoted from its earliest beginnings. Messier got away with it as did Clarke. Simply cant do that today, certainly not since the creation of the Instigator Rule & the 04 Lockout with Rule Changes, entirely different dynamic in play. So if people underrate him its because of his own actions, the way he approached the game, many unwilling to overlook all of that (myself included). Put it this way; I respected his commitment & compete, zero respect for how he went about achieving that at times. But as he's a product of a certain school of thought Im not gunna condemn him for all eternity, on balance you have to look at the good, the bad & the ugly, and in his case like Clarke's there is plenty to celebrate & admire.