Messier hitting an injured Linden - Game 6, 1994

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I believe it definitely. If it works for him it works for him. I personally have never felt that way. And I can't be taught to feel that way. And no I have never accomplished any great things as a result;) Maybe it's the wiring of the brain combined with what your parents instill with you that creates ferocious competitors like this.

on that note, i am convinced that the sutter brothers' dad let gary (the one who quit hockey) eat cake all day sitting on a throne at the top of a hill while starving the other six and making them try to push push tractors with the e-brake on up that hill just watching gary up there day after day with murderous rage.
 
Okay, we're now four pages into a thread to knock Messier for a play that no one here actually saw...

Yes, Messier was an occasionally dirty player who crossed the line now and again. His elbows and nasty-stuff were legendary.

He was clearly very passionate about the game, but he was also known (in his younger years) as a wild and free, fun-loving guy. He'd show up at the airport, for a trip to Hawaii, with no baggage whatsoever and only a roll of bills in his shirt pocket.

He was also known as a great team guy. McSorley -- the same guy who fought Messier twice -- also said that when he joined the Oilers, Messier was the one who insisted McSorley stay with him, at his house, instead of in a cheap motel. Helped him get a car. Promised him they'd win the Cup for him, so McSorley could experience it.

Messier did take some liberties with smaller players, but he didn't shy away from big ones either. He only rarely fought, but we saw him drop 'em with with guys like McSorley, Peplinksi, Roberts, etc. -- who weren't shrinking violets.

At the end of the day, even Messier's enemies, like Bob Johnston, had nothing but admiration for him. After Messier did his thing against New Jersey in '94, even a guy like Bernie Nicholls (center for the Devils) said, "When the chips are down, I want Messier."

I do wonder, though, if Mess got a strip torn out of him in early junior days, or something similar. Something must have happened in his early development to give him that Gordie Howe "making-space-for-myself" attitude towards hockey violence.

Besides, if not for one's of Mess's cheap-shots, we wouldn't have that diamond video of the trainers dropping Modano!


Remember him this way:
 
What part of deliberately throwing your body at an injured player who's crawling on the ice was ever an accepted part of the game? In no way does that compare to a minor slash on the gloves. Nor does throwing a leaping hit into a guy's face to take him out of the game compare to taking a swing at a linesman.

You're too smart to be making an argument like the one above.

It doesn't. But in 30 years, people may look at slashes on the hands the way we look at hitting players in a vulnerable position - and they may look at hitting players in a vulnerable position the way we look at punching officials or going into the stands to beat a fan with a shoe.

With the progression of time and the cleaning up of hockey, the illegal acts of one generation will always look so much worse to the later generations. So when you say, "I saw the cheap shots as part of the entertainment" back then, I get it. Because it was part of the entertainment.

Putting on the foil. I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out. Make Gretzky's head bleed.

Hockey has an ugly past, and 30 years from now, they'll say that 2017 was pretty ugly too, because people were still punching each other for the crowd's entertainment and slashing each other's hands to free up a puck (by that point, Richard and Messier will be thought of as no better than war criminals). And from our immortal half-cyborg bodies, we can condemn the 2017 players for not living up to the evolved 2047 standards of hockey culture, or we can reflect on this ugly sport and say that just like Mike Ricci's face, it had its certain amount of charm.

And I am smart enough to know which argument I'll make. #TeamRicci
 
It doesn't. But in 30 years, people may look at slashes on the hands the way we look at hitting players in a vulnerable position - and they may look at hitting players in a vulnerable position the way we look at punching officials or going into the stands to beat a fan with a shoe.

With the progression of time and the cleaning up of hockey, the illegal acts of one generation will always look so much worse to the later generations. So when you say, "I saw the cheap shots as part of the entertainment" back then, I get it. Because it was part of the entertainment.

Putting on the foil. I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out. Make Gretzky's head bleed.

Hockey has an ugly past, and 30 years from now, they'll say that 2017 was pretty ugly too, because people were still punching each other for the crowd's entertainment and slashing each other's hands to free up a puck (by that point, Richard and Messier will be thought of as no better than war criminals). And from our immortal half-cyborg bodies, we can condemn the 2017 players for not living up to the evolved 2047 standards of hockey culture, or we can reflect on this ugly sport and say that just like Mike Ricci's face, it had its certain amount of charm.

And I am smart enough to know which argument I'll make. #TeamRicci

I'm sorry, but the point you're trying to make here is mind-numbingly stupid.

Slashing someone to free up a puck will never be viewed in the same light as driving him head-first into the boards, for reasons that are painfully obvious.
 
It doesn't. But in 30 years, people may look at slashes on the hands the way we look at hitting players in a vulnerable position - and they may look at hitting players in a vulnerable position the way we look at punching officials or going into the stands to beat a fan with a shoe.
So they will consider it hilarious?
 
It doesn't. But in 30 years, people may look at slashes on the hands the way we look at hitting players in a vulnerable position - and they may look at hitting players in a vulnerable position the way we look at punching officials or going into the stands to beat a fan with a shoe.

Or.... in 2047 they could look at what we considered dirty stickwork & slashing yesteryear & today as being perfectly acceptable, the norm by then. Fighting gone along with full contact as a result of the NHL losing the concussion suit in 2025, changing societal more's & so on.....

So if qpq Jr.... the 2nd or 3rd is watching lets say that youtube clip in 2047 of Robinson & Messier with the latter brandishing his stick like a scalpel, giving every impression then as now that he's a gutless psych job who wont drop em', in 2047 the exact opposite opinion.

That Larry Robinson with his Invitation to a Bare Knuckle Fight was the Neanderthal, the Bad Guy. Mark Messier's Invitation to Duel the appropriate reaction to fouls, heated moments on the ice. Stickworks on the rise, entirely possible.

So.... Players rather than being taught to :box: taking :fence: lessons. Ha?
 
Do we really know if he is though? None of us know him personally

Messier just always struck me as a very serious fanatical workaholic. I personally never understood workaholics. I think the intensity and drive that he had was something you just had to be born with.

It was a reference to a quote from Kevin Bacon in the movie The River Wild (in which he plays a ruthless thug who kidnaps a family to escape from the law).

But on a serious level, guys like Messier and Chelios were my favorite players because the intensity and aggression coupled with talent appealed. In sports, I always hated losing more than anything but I also loved the dynamic of violence in sports. It is perhaps driven by the biological preference of males for action over inaction, decisive victory over inconclusive outcomes.

I wouldn't say I took my inspiration from those guys, it's that I identified with their style of playing. The distinction between thuggery and leadership is whether the cause in which you employ your 'skills' is one that others can get behind. In sports, we all want to win, we all want to win badly. Messier has a leadership award named after himself because he could help get you there more than most players.
 
I'm sorry, but the point you're trying to make here is mind-numbingly stupid.

Slashing someone to free up a puck will never be viewed in the same light as driving him head-first into the boards, for reasons that are painfully obvious.

2-Game Suspension in 1996



2-Game Suspension in 2014

[NHL2]c-40291703[/NHL2]

30 years ahead of my timetable, and it can already fetch a suspension that's comparable to the hammer that was dropped on peak dirtbag Messier when the culture was different. You think it's mind-numbingly stupid, but we have 30 years to find out how much our mindsets about slashing will all change. Maybe in 2047, Crosby on Methot will go viral like Messier on Modano.
 
^ The NHL handing out dumb suspensions is nothing new, and a completely separate issue from what's considered "goonery". Nobody would look at the two clips above and see them as comparable offenses... not now, not in 1994, not in 2047.
 
^ The NHL handing out dumb suspensions is nothing new, and a completely separate issue from what's considered "goonery". Nobody would look at the two clips above and see them as comparable offenses... not now, not in 1994, not in 2047.

I didn't say they were comparable actions, but that they would receive comparable reactions.
 
^ The NHL handing out dumb suspensions is nothing new, and a completely separate issue from what's considered "goonery". Nobody would look at the two clips above and see them as comparable offenses... not now, not in 1994, not in 2047.

At no point in time you will ever find someone looking at the 2 events and find them comparable offense that what is not the theory advanced. In 2047, the older clip will still be considered a worst offense than the second clip.

What is said, that how subjectively bad the second clip would look to someone in 2050 could be the same as how bad the first clip did look to people in 1994.

Going to public execution was normal until recently (and still is in some country), before that going to the circus to see (Mod) people getting killed by elephant or 300v300 people fighting to the death at the same time was normal.

The line of acceptable change a lot over time, and it could go the other way around say if medicine evolve so much that you can repair athlete perfectly between season and everything that happen below a certain level is consequence less.
 
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But on a serious level, guys like Messier and Chelios were my favorite players because the intensity and aggression coupled with talent appealed. In sports, I always hated losing more than anything but I also loved the dynamic of violence in sports. It is perhaps driven by the biological preference of males for action over inaction, decisive victory over inconclusive outcomes.

I wouldn't say I took my inspiration from those guys, it's that I identified with their style of playing....

Oh sure, and most players will tell you that they'd have "done anything" to make it to the NHL as the vast majority are Foot Soldiers, 2nd & 3rd Liners, 5th or 7th Defenceman, Enforcers, Swing or Utility Players. The minute you hit Major Junior you'd better be adopting that win at all costs attitude or you may not even stick with your Junior club much less cut it in the NHL however there are limits as to just how far anyone will go in "doing anything" to win, to make it to the NHL. Generally back in the day the real head-cases never got out of Junior or if they did wound up in the NAHL or one of the even lower leagues even if they had talent. You cant rely on a guy with a hair trigger temper, entirely capable of at worse homicide at best, maiming people. You dont see much of that anymore of course for a variety of reasons but sure, guys like Maki, Dave Williams, Schultz, Clarke & Messier, Cooke etc etc etc etc etc... they played by an extreme version of The Code, that when the going got crazy (often starting it themselves if their team down) they went pro, no brakes. No pity. To Hell with the Code, this is War. Ingrained, in hockeys DNA. If you cant beat em' in the alley....

Hell, even Brit Selby who won the Calder while with the Leafs carried the heaviest stick in NHL history, regulation sized blade but just a massive shaft on the thing and when he'd hit you with it like being shot. And use it he did. Or Billy Smith. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever his intention was to injure on innumerable occasions. Not just clear the crease or shooting lane, to send a message but to maim. I dont care for those types of players, some with lots of talent like Messier or Clarke, these were guys who were beyond just "players you love to hate". They were Bully's and ya, Cowards at times and Ive got no time for Cowards. If there was any justice in the World guys like that wouldve been clocked, had the snot beaten out of them so badly early in their careers rather than managing to get away with what they did in hiding behind Refs' or their sticks & playing it by The Code then ok. Real simple. You dont suckerpunch, you dont hit from behind or target the head unless the guys heads down, you dont use your stick like a scalpel or brickbat, you dont hit someone when their down & out (like Murray Balfour on Carl Brewer who himself was not playing by The Code but that doesnt excuse Balfour either) and so on & so forth. You just dont do what Messier pulled on Trevor Linden.

And no, no individual player "takes inspiration from" (questionable as well if seeing one of your players beat the Hell out of an opponent in a close game or when your down that it'll turn the tide, or that if losing, game out of reach a good dustup will send a message that "next time we wont be so easy") guys like that, that their going to copy a Link Gaetz or Donald Brashear, but enough do see a Messier or Clarke being deified to think that kind of behaviour is not only acceptable but so too something youd wanna aspire to. That you employ tactics that go well beyond the Rules of Engagement in order to win as if it was a life & death situation. No limits. Now, on the All Time Scale or Ranking of Scoundrels, Messier nowhere near the top, not even close, and while Ive been tough on him, not a fan, I can certainly appreciate why people would be & cut him slack. He spoke with his talent as a player playing it clean for the vast majority of his career. You can still play with an edge, be "edgy" and intimidating without playing it with one foot in the gutter, behaving like an inmate incarcerated in a SuperMax prison during a riot.
 
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Thirty Years

2047 or thirty years from now. Are people serious?

1957, Little Rock, Arkansas. 1927 very few foresaw desegregation of American public schools in the old south. 1987 the class of 57, not the Statler Brothers Song(reading to much Killion), saw the University of Arkansas FB program well on the way to full integration that we see today throughout the old south from pre-school thru university.

Crystal balls do not exist.
 
I didn't say they were comparable actions, but that they would receive comparable reactions.

You're acting like nobody blinked at Messier's antics in his own day. He had a long list of suspensions -- and not short ones, we're talking 10-gamers here -- for deliberate stickwork and that was during the 1980s. Even by the standard of his own day, he was regarded as one of the biggest cheapshots in the league. The league started hitting him with longer and longer suspensions until he cut out the worst of it and become more of an elbow artist than a guy who ran around just smacking people over the head with his stick.

Again, this isn't me applying a 2017 mindset to 1980s hockey. This is me maturing beyond the WWF mindset I had as a youth and really understanding what a complete piece of garbage you have to be to do the things Messier did.
 
2047 or thirty years from now. Are people serious?

Crystal balls do not exist.

Everyone agree with you on this, it is just a possible that a Crosby on Methot slash will get 10 game suspension like Messier got for what he was doing back in the days.

It is likely imo, but it could go in any direction.

The world shifted so much from the direction he was going from 1884 to 1913 vs after that.
 
Again, this isn't me applying a 2017 mindset to 1980s hockey. This is me maturing beyond the WWF mindset I had as a youth and really understanding what a complete piece of garbage you have to be to do the things Messier did.

Unless you've literally been living under a rock for several decades, how do you know you matured into your post-WWF mindset completely independent of the influences of the world and hockey culture changing around you? Did your innate moral compass kick in at a younger age than Bob Johnson's and Barry Long's?
 
Equipment

Everyone agree with you on this, it is just a possible that a Crosby on Methot slash will get 10 game suspension like Messier got for what he was doing back in the days.

It is likely imo, but it could go in any direction.

The world shifted so much from the direction he was going from 1884 to 1913 vs after that.

More of an equipment issue - better extended gloves. Same as the Cooke / Karlsson "accident". Kevlar hockey socks,cut proof, before viewed as a nuisance are now the norm.
 
More of an equipment issue - better extended gloves. Same as the Cooke / Karlsson "accident". Kevlar hockey socks,cut proof, before viewed as a nuisance are now the norm.

Has for using stick instead of punching people, maybe they will have all full visor and high stick penalty will not really exist like they have it now, it will need to be a serious hit to the head and loose stick to the face will not exist at all.

Regardless the point was that an equivalent action will maybe be 10 game worthy in 30 year's, making it viewed the same than what got you 10 game back in the days.

On the moral side of their action, seriously in less than 100 year the fact that hockey player's were meat eater of conscious animal will maybe make them sound much worst than what they ever did on the ice, like you said it is really hard to predict and it can change extremely fast.
 
More of an equipment issue - better extended gloves. Same as the Cooke / Karlsson "accident". Kevlar hockey socks,cut proof, before viewed as a nuisance are now the norm.

I'm not following you here.... the cuffs on gloves today are pretty much non-existent whereas going back decades they were very nearly full wrist to elbow gauntlets, shrinking in length through the decades before stabilizing through the 50's~80's... So "longer" or "50's~80's glove gauntlet "a good thing"... todays shorter to non-existent cuffs "a bad thing".... kevlar hockey sox "a good thing", old-school sox not so much given the increase in stickwork & slashing.... Equipment innovations like the sox in reaction to how the games being played with increased stickwork & slashing however that doesnt account for the ever shrinking cuff's on gloves, which has always struck me (and Don Cherry apparently amongst many others) as being pretty stupid, reckless. I get the "mobility" bit, that todays gloves lighter, already broken-in right off the shelf but its just dumb. Have all the protection of a pair of gardeners gloves. Ha?
 
Unless you've literally been living under a rock for several decades, how do you know you matured into your post-WWF mindset completely independent of the influences of the world and hockey culture changing around you? Did your innate moral compass kick in at a younger age than Bob Johnson's and Barry Long's?

.... :huh: Badger Bob the Coach.... Barry Long the ex hockey player or Australian Spiritualist? Not following you here qpq....

When it comes to play & fair play, most peoples moral compasses kick-in at a very young age indeed. Just as soon as they
start playing with others, learning the difference between right & wrong. How to get along with their peers. Bad behaviour,
those with behavioural issues generally isolated if they fail to correct their bad behaviour. Dont play nice, respectfully.
 
Weight

I'm not following you here.... the cuffs on gloves today are pretty much non-existent whereas going back decades they were very nearly full wrist to elbow gauntlets, shrinking in length through the decades before stabilizing through the 50's~80's... So "longer" or "50's~80's glove gauntlet "a good thing"... todays shorter to non-existent cuffs "a bad thing".... kevlar hockey sox "a good thing", old-school sox not so much given the increase in stickwork & slashing.... Equipment innovations like the sox in reaction to how the games being played with increased stickwork & slashing however that doesnt account for the ever shrinking cuff's on gloves, which has always struck me (and Don Cherry apparently amongst many others) as being pretty stupid, reckless. I get the "mobility" bit, that todays gloves lighter, already broken-in right off the shelf but its just dumb. Have all the protection of a pair of gardeners gloves. Ha?

The question is weigh of the gloves. Similar to goalie equipment. No Michelin goalie pads if the weight was the same proportionately as in the O6 era.

Just a matter of time for the solution to surface and be approved. solution t
 
Oh sure, and most players will tell you that they'd have "done anything" to make it to the NHL as the vast majority are Foot Soldiers, 2nd & 3rd Liners, 5th or 7th Defenceman, Enforcers, Swing or Utility Players. The minute you hit Major Junior you'd better be adopting that win at all costs attitude or you may not even stick with your Junior club much less cut it in the NHL however there are limits as to just how far anyone will go in "doing anything" to win, to make it to the NHL. Generally back in the day the real head-cases never got out of Junior or if they did wound up in the NAHL or one of the even lower leagues even if they had talent. You cant rely on a guy with a hair trigger temper, entirely capable of at worse homicide at best, maiming people. You dont see much of that anymore of course for a variety of reasons but sure, guys like Maki, Dave Williams, Schultz, Clarke & Messier, Cooke etc etc etc etc etc... they played by an extreme version of The Code, that when the going got crazy (often starting it themselves if their team down) they went pro, no brakes. No pity. To Hell with the Code, this is War. Ingrained, in hockeys DNA. If you cant beat em' in the alley....

Hell, even Brit Selby who won the Calder while with the Leafs carried the heaviest stick in NHL history, regulation sized blade but just a massive shaft on the thing and when he'd hit you with it like being shot. And use it he did. Or Billy Smith. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever his intention was to injure on innumerable occasions. Not just clear the crease or shooting lane, to send a message but to maim. I dont care for those types of players, some with lots of talent like Messier or Clarke, these were guys who were beyond just "players you love to hate". They were Bully's and ya, Cowards at times and Ive got no time for Cowards. If there was any justice in the World guys like that wouldve been clocked, had the snot beaten out of them so badly early in their careers rather than managing to get away with what they did in hiding behind Refs' or their sticks & playing it by The Code then ok. Real simple. You dont suckerpunch, you dont hit from behind or target the head unless the guys heads down, you dont use your stick like a scalpel or brickbat, you dont hit someone when their down & out (like Murray Balfour on Carl Brewer who himself was not playing by The Code but that doesnt excuse Balfour either) and so on & so forth. You just dont do what Messier pulled on Trevor Linden.

And no, no individual player "takes inspiration from" (questionable as well if seeing one of your players beat the Hell out of an opponent in a close game or when your down that it'll turn the tide, or that if losing, game out of reach a good dustup will send a message that "next time we wont be so easy") guys like that, that their going to copy a Link Gaetz or Donald Brashear, but enough do see a Messier or Clarke being deified to think that kind of behaviour is not only acceptable but so too something youd wanna aspire to. That you employ tactics that go well beyond the Rules of Engagement in order to win as if it was a life & death situation. No limits. Now, on the All Time Scale or Ranking of Scoundrels, Messier nowhere near the top, not even close, and while Ive been tough on him, not a fan, I can certainly appreciate why people would be & cut him slack. He spoke with his talent as a player playing it clean for the vast majority of his career. You can still play with an edge, be "edgy" and intimidating without playing it with one foot in the gutter, behaving like an inmate incarcerated in a SuperMax prison during a riot.

As you mention, hockey's history has been full of people doing extremely questionable things. Perhaps of all popular sports, hockey is the closest to a form of brute Game of Thrones-style darwinism.

The concept of sportsmanship was crafted among European noblemen of the 19th century. An idealistic glorification of chivalry in an athletic context. Hockey was played very early on for money and played by very tough and very wild guys from the frontiers of the civilized world (which rural Canada in the late 19th/early 20th century very much was).

Unsurprisingly, the idea of sportsmanship took a long time to really take a hold in the world of hockey and once it did, it took the form of an oft-broken and semi-mythical 'code' that is more similar to such codes among organized criminals than any actual code of justice.

Now, we probably don't want a society that works along such lines, but hockey is a mini-universe separate from society at-large and people enjoy it *because* it is different from our regular world. It offers temporary liberation from the boredom, indecision and endless compromises of modern life. Hockey has seen its share of villains, heroes, jesters, thugs, gentlemen and rogues. There's tales of courage, of cowardice, of mindless brutality, of great humanity, of victory and of defeat.

Messier was not the greatest villain as you also note, but to those who did not rally to the colors that he wore (whether they were those of the Oilers or Rangers or simply Team Canada's) he was nevertheless probably more villain than hero. Yet he's also one of the legends of the game. Why? Because we don't measure hockey players vs the standards we'd use to evaluate our co-workers or neighbors.

In the sphere of hockey, the Stanley Cup is the ultimate prize. It is understood that people will do anything to obtain it. It is part of the spectacle that everyone feels such passion about it, that there's such an intense pursuit. Everything about it feels more in line with pre-modern warfare than our post-modern world.

Messier's opponents were driven by it as much as he was and many of them were willing to perform similar misdeeds to win the ultimate prize. But even those that were not willing to go that far knew that there were those who would. Once you step on the ice, you accepted that the rules of regular society more or less ceased to apply. You're among wolves out there. Messier was one of the baddest wolves and everyone knew that.

I think the lesson here is less about Messier and more about human nature. Once we look at the small details, we realize that the nitty gritty of great victories, of great warriors and leaders is often not especially pretty. That things are done in pursuit of victory, even by admired champions of honor and what else, that are perhaps appalling and against civilized values. Sometimes things that may not even be necessary for victory, sometimes things that make you perhaps realize that a hero in one arena may not be a hero in all arenas.

Winston Churchill ordered the mass killing of German civilians via air raids targeting residential neighborhoods of cities. It is unclear if that actually helped the Allies win. But Winston Churchill is considered one of the great heroes of the 20th century and an iconic figure. How do we reconcile that?

One answer is - you don't. Iconoclasm as the answer. Evey Youtube video on any icon will have its commenters attacking said icon, pointing out their flaws. That's one way to go.

The other way is to say that while perhaps some bad things were done, some evils committed, that the overall benefit generated by the actions taken by these men outweigh the damage done by their bad deeds. An acknowledgement of the complexity of men and their motives, but also the difficulty of decisions made in high-pressure situations without the luxury of distance and hindsight. Perhaps we prefer people who do great things at great cost over those who do not do things, who'd rather stay on the side of moral certainty by the path of inaction.

See Teddy Roosevelt's The Man in the Arena speech:

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
 
The other way is to say that while perhaps some bad things were done, some evils committed, that the overall benefit generated by the actions taken by these men outweigh the damage done by their bad deeds. An acknowledgement of the complexity of men and their motives, but also the difficulty of decisions made in high-pressure situations without the luxury of distance and hindsight. Perhaps we prefer people who do great things at great cost over those who do not do things, who'd rather stay on the side of moral certainty by the path of inaction.

Interesting post, points, analogies, comparisons. Nicely done. Particularly impressed with your corollaries in citing Churchill and the historical revisionism that followed his career & subsequent deification when in fact..... and without going way way way off topic & "out there", he was one of the framers of a plan to starve the German population into submission during WW1 with a food blockade which as Lord Admiral of the Navy he then so ordered. The first time ever in the history of then modern warfare that civilians had been deliberately targeted with over 700,000 deaths resulting amongst the German population between 1915 & 1919, setting a whole new precedent that was then followed by everyone else.

Then of course there was the bombing of Dresden which he also ordered up, absolutely not the actions of someone even remotely concerned with the normal precepts when it came to the Rules of Engagement, warfare. These were Crimes Against Humanity for Gods sake but to the Victors goes the writing of history.... and Boy could Winston Churchill write and give a good speech. Didnt matter if he was a beyond incompetent, alcoholic, spendthrift man-child who treated women abominably & had "Mommy Issues" and who if not for wealthy handlers in the 30's bailing him out of insolvency & bringing him back from the Political Graveyard would likely have wound up destitute & homeless. He was a Useful Fool to powerful & beyond wealthy interests. A Puppet. But according to mainstream, a "Giant of the 20th Century"... "The British Lion" as per his fawning, sycophantic biographers. A Winner. Yet scratch the surface, dig a bit.... shocking. Beyond shocking.

Now, if you try to bring up such facts, such issues with almost anyone & everyone, they dont want to know about it, think your nuts, wont listen. Cognitive dissonance. Brainwashed by educators and academia, by the historians. You Win & Churchill Won, Mark Messier was a Winner, then your one of the Good Guys and whatever means you used to Win absolutely justified the end and Bonus; you get to not just write history, you get to re-write history, editing out all the nasty bits, the intemperate, unconscionable, spiteful, malicious, sociopathic & rash mistakes you made. To justify & validate those actions, create a new and beyond flattering, self aggrandizing reality. You create Awards, Foundations, Bursaries & Scholarships in your name..... sound familiar?.

I'd best stop now... prolly already gone too far "out there".... happens you get older... mind wanders.... the more you see of people, the more you study & live, experience, realize that so much of what we were taught to believe as truth & fact are lies.... well, patience recedes, grows thinner with the years..... Ultimately I agree with what youve written above in that paragraph I left up & quoted. Wisest course, best way to look at & consider issues of Leadership, absolutely. ;)
 
If we're talking Churchill, he was also in love with the use of poison gas (even as the rest of the world was moving towards abolishing it).
 

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