Meaningful March

[Micklebot]

And Detroit “could have” won against St. Louis, Philly x 2 and Nashville and be 8 points up from where they are. So it applies to the Sens and not the Wings? They were only eliminated last night mathematically.

The games meant the exact same, win and you still have a very, very slim chance. Exact same as the Sens.

The fact we seem to think it’s a huge improvement, and satisfying meaningful game, is bizarre to me.

Both teams were in the same position. Win games, and scoreboard watch 4 other teams, and you still have a chance. That's as meaningful as the games were, which is very, very little.

March 1st, after the losses to the Sens.
Sens 60 GP 64p
Wings 60 GP 64p

So if the Wings said that they wanted to be in meaningful games in March at the start of the year, they’d have fulfilled that promise using our low bar.

The difference is Detroit chose not to play meaningful game, they chose to tank. They made that decision, and sold off a bunch of their better players, you can obviously see that but chose to ignore it

We chose to play meaningful games and take our chances, they chose to sell off and not worry about the outcomes. Games cease to be meaningful when you don't care about the outcome.

Yes, we got help to keep games meaningful, we also got a kick in the teeth by losing both goalies at the start of the month, it happens, but the games still mattered, we weren't out of it until we were, and it's hard to argue that three games we lost by single goals in the last 5 didn't matter when wins has us right there with the two teams in the final wild card spot.

 

[Micklebot]

This post holds no information or argument. The bar was set low, evidently proven when 80% of the conference achieves it (or 75% by your standard of removing Detroit - who clearly recognized where they were at and pivoted to not attempt to be competitive. WSH did the same). Although if Detroit went on a 5+ game win streak at the start of March they would be in it

I never stated other teams do not have the same goal.

"meaningful games" is very subjective, "the highest achievement was a 35% chance of playoffs, held for 48 hours, and never touched the wild card position" proves how variable it can be.

Also, these last 9 games are "meaningful" in the sense that if we go 9-0 we may have a chance.

We achieved the goal Dorion set. I don't think its impressive in any way

50% of the league makes the playoffs, of course a large portion of the league will be close, it's by design.

You hide behind only 4 teams being out of it, failing to acknowledge the teams that are fighting for the last sport are by design really close to one another, the league wants this because it increases engagement, folks predicting the standings recognized how competitive the east was and set expectations for us accordingly, as did Dorion.

Replace meaningful games with bubble playoff team, that's what was meant, that's what we are, on the bubble.

 

[Sens Vader]

50% of the league makes the playoffs, of course a large portion of the league will be close, it's by design.

You hide behind only 4 teams being out of it, failing to acknowledge the teams that are fighting for the last sport are by design really close to one another, the league wants this because it increases engagement, folks predicting the standings recognized how competitive the east was and set expectations for us accordingly, as did Dorion.

Replace meaningful games with bubble playoff team, that's what was meant, that's what we are, on the bubble.

I am not arguing if we have played meaningful games or not, my statement was "the goal of playing meaningful games is a pretty low bar, it was met and made the season more fun"

You have engaged in a debate with me about this, and I have easily proven my point.

You can't say "that is what was meant", its a goal that is subjectively met - making is easy to achieve (as most subjective goals are)

define on the bubble, what do your playoff chances need to be specifically to call yourself a legitimate wild-card contender?

is it 1%? 15%? 50%? 65%?

 

[BondraTime]

The difference is Detroit chose not to play meaningful game, they chose to tank. They made that decision, and sold off a bunch of their better players, you can obviously see that but chose to ignore it

We chose to play meaningful games and take our chances, they chose to sell off and not worry about the outcomes. Games cease to be meaningful when you don't care about the outcome.

Yes, we got help to keep games meaningful, we also got a kick in the teeth by losing both goalies at the start of the month, it happens, but the games still mattered, we weren't out of it until we were, and it's hard to argue that three games we lost by single goals in the last 5 didn't matter when wins has us right there with the two teams in the final wild card spot.

If the difference between meaningful games is how they are viewed in house by an organization, they are not meaningful in the slightest.

Two teams entering March with the exact same records, the games are worth the exact same.

We view them as meaningful, while another team doesn't at all. These are not meaningful games other than a participation ribbon for trying.

If that's all it took to meet those goals, it was a ridiculously low bar set forth, as a team who clearly understood they are better off selling out was in the exact same spot as the Sens heading into March. The only difference is one team has their 1st, and the other team is playing for their jobs and needing to come off as successful.

 

[Golden_Jet]

If the difference between meaningful games is how they are viewed in house by an organization, they are not meaningful in the slightest.

Two teams entering March with the exact same records, the games are worth the exact same.

We view them as meaningful, while another team doesn't at all. These are not meaningful games other than a participation ribbon for trying.

If that's all it took to meet those goals, it was a ridiculously low bar set forth, as a team who clearly understood they are better off selling out was in the exact same spot as the Sens heading into March. The only difference is one team has their 1st, and the other team is playing for their jobs and needing to come off as successful.

Probably fair to mention the players they moved were UFA and ones Stevie Y didn’t want to pay what they wanted or didn’t see them as long term. Sens UFA players weren’t top 4 D or top 6 forwards.

 

[Byron Bitz]

“Meaningful games in March” is the new “respect in the handshake line”.

 

[Ice-Tray]

If you think Detroit played meaningful games when the first thing they did on March 1st was start to unload their top players, maybe you have a different definition than the rest of the world.

Had we beat Boston and NJD, both games we were with a goal not including EN, we'd be tied with Florida right now, 3 pts back of the pens and 4 of NYI with a game in hand. We lost two meaningful games in the 4th week of March,

OK?


It's subjective enough that you've included a team like Det who literally started selling off the first day of the month, so you've go me there, but I don't think Dorion meant we won't start selling off until the first of March when he said meaningful.

Ok, Dorion and DJ should be gone regardless of whether you consider this season as successful or not, they weren't getting fired unt new ownership came in regardless though, so who cares.

Had Dorion said we'll be competitive with Was, Pens, and Florida for the last few playoff spots, everyone would have said he was out of his mind, but that's where we've been all month, and we did it without Norris all year, and with losing both our NHL goalies for all but two games in March. We aimed to be a bubble team, everyone outside of ottawa set expectations as a bubble team, and go figure, we're a bubble team,

The league is about parity, when you aren't willing to acknowledge other teams have the same goals, and also make additions every offseason to reach those goals, you end up thinking what your team did is surely enough to guarantee success, but life doesn't work that way.

I’d also add that in comparison to where we came from, and how tough our division is, being a bubble team is a pretty significant jump for a single season.

And Detroit “could have” won against St. Louis, Philly x 2 and Nashville and be 8 points up from where they are. So it applies to the Sens and not the Wings? They were only eliminated last night mathematically.

The games meant the exact same, win and you still have a very, very slim chance. Exact same as the Sens.

The fact we seem to think it’s a huge improvement, and satisfying meaningful game, is bizarre to me.

Both teams were in the same position. Win games, and scoreboard watch 4 other teams, and you still have a chance. That's as meaningful as the games were, which is very, very little.

March 1st, after the losses to the Sens.
Sens 60 GP 64p
Wings 60 GP 64p

So if the Wings said that they wanted to be in meaningful games in March at the start of the year, they’d have fulfilled that promise using our low bar.

what did they say their goal was? The only people complaining the bar is low is a handful of pissy fans, it’s not a thing.

We have had a solid season of growth.

 

[Micklebot]

If the difference between meaningful games is how they are viewed in house by an organization, they are not meaningful in the slightest.

Two teams entering March with the exact same records, the games are worth the exact same.

We view them as meaningful, while another team doesn't at all. These are not meaningful games other than a participation ribbon for trying.

If that's all it took to meet those goals, it was a ridiculously low bar set forth, as a team who clearly understood they are better off selling out was in the exact same spot as the Sens heading into March. The only difference is one team has their 1st, and the other team is playing for their jobs and needing to come off as successful.

They were meaningful because A) winning or losing them had a significant impact on whether we'd be reaching the playoffs or not, B) it's was realistically within our grasp to win them, and C) the organization was still trying to win them.

If you stop trying to win them and actively make moves to make winning less likely of course they cease to be meaningful,

 

[Micklebot]

I am not arguing if we have played meaningful games or not, my statement was "the goal of playing meaningful games is a pretty low bar, it was met and made the season more fun"

You have engaged in a debate with me about this, and I have easily proven my point.

You can't say "that is what was meant", its a goal that is subjectively met - making is easy to achieve (as most subjective goals are)

define on the bubble, what do your playoff chances need to be specifically to call yourself a legitimate wild-card contender?

is it 1%? 15%? 50%? 65%?

The bar was set realistically based on the team we have, that was proven long ago by the countless 3rd party sources that had us finishing exactly where we are in preseason rankings and predictions, you appear to be saying Dorion set the bar artificially low just so that he could claim success, that's not really true. Now, if you actually meant the bar was set reasonably based on where this team currently was in its development relative to other teams, fine, but I don't think that's what you've been arguing.

 

[JD1]

And Detroit “could have” won against St. Louis, Philly x 2 and Nashville and be 8 points up from where they are. So it applies to the Sens and not the Wings? They were only eliminated last night mathematically.

The games meant the exact same, win and you still have a very, very slim chance. Exact same as the Sens.

The fact we seem to think it’s a huge improvement, and satisfying meaningful game, is bizarre to me.

Both teams were in the same position. Win games, and scoreboard watch 4 other teams, and you still have a chance. That's as meaningful as the games were, which is very, very little.

March 1st, after the losses to the Sens.
Sens 60 GP 64p
Wings 60 GP 64p

So if the Wings said that they wanted to be in meaningful games in March at the start of the year, they’d have fulfilled that promise using our low bar.

Mathematically yes this is true.

The difference in sentiment though was quite extreme.

One team was beat down about as badly as you can be beat down. The other team laid the beating down.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Brady still out here framing them as important games lol. Maybe I'm just a pecimist, but what the heck is he talking about? They're beyond cooked.

Ottawa Senators Brady Tkachuk on crucial games against his brother: 'big games for both teams' | TSN

The Ottawa Senators play two of their nine remaining games against the division-rival Florida Panthers. Those games are crucial for the team, as they trail Florida in the standings, but a bigger personal motivation exists for Sens captain Brady Tkachuk - his brother Matthew is the Panthers'...

www.tsn.ca

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Meaningful game

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Mathematically yes this is true.

The difference in sentiment though was quite extreme.

One team was beat down about as badly as you can be beat down. The other team laid the beating down.

And then rolled over and played dead, unfortunately.

 

[coladin]

did not turn out to be so meaningful

I think it was very meaningful. We saw how rose to the occasion, and who did not. And how that has to be addressed moving forward

 

[Sens Vader]

The bar was set realistically based on the team we have, that was proven long ago by the countless 3rd party sources that had us finishing exactly where we are in preseason rankings and predictions, you appear to be saying Dorion set the bar artificially low just so that he could claim success, that's not really true. Now, if you actually meant the bar was set reasonably based on where this team currently was in its development relative to other teams, fine, but I don't think that's what you've been arguing.

No, I am saying the bar was set low because saying "meaningful games" has a large variance of achievement, due to its subjectivity. I proved that by being able to bulk 80% of the conference into playing "meaningful games"

He set a goal that was extremely easy to achieve. It's not artificially low, it is low. A low bar is something easily achievable, or a standard low enough to have a high probability of success.

Setting low bars is not uncommon for executives and leaders, you say a goal that has a high amount of variance in interpreting its success. having a 5% chance of making the playoffs vs 45% chance of making the playoffs at any point and you can be playing "meaningful games". I am not blaming Dorion for anything.

It's a low bar, point blank period.

Now when we evaluate it, did we 1) not achieve the goal, 2) barely achieve the goal 3) nailed the goal 4) surpass the goal 5) significantly surpass the goal

 

[BondraTime]

No, I am saying the bar was set low because saying "meaningful games" has a large variance of achievement, due to its subjectivity. I proved that by being able to bulk 80% of the conference into playing "meaningful games"

He set a goal that was extremely easy to achieve. It's not artificially low, it is low. A low bar is something easily achievable.

Setting low bars is not uncommon for executives and leaders, you say a goal that has a high amount of variance in interpreting its success. having a 5% chance of making the playoffs vs 45% chance of making the playoffs at any point and you can be playing "meaningful games". I am not blaming Dorion for anything.

It's a low bar, point blank period.

Now when we evaluate it, did we 1) not achieve the goal, 2) barely achieve the goal 3) nailed the goal 4) surpass the goal 5) significantly surpass the goal

I’m astounded this is being argued.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Meaningful games

 

[BondraTime]

Meaningful games

Exactly what I’ve been saying. These are meaningful games to me. Less than 10 games remaining, your own fates in your hands, only 1/2 other teams to worry about.

Not 20+ games remaining and we have a hope and a prayer should we go 15-5 and other teams falter, like 28/32 of the teams in the league. In a grouping with the 13th-8th in the conference isn’t meaningful with 20+ games remaining, that’s legitimately every single year in the NHL.

Obviously my take of the subjective meaning of meaningful games differs.

 

[DrEasy]

No, I am saying the bar was set low because saying "meaningful games" has a large variance of achievement, due to its subjectivity. I proved that by being able to bulk 80% of the conference into playing "meaningful games"

He set a goal that was extremely easy to achieve. It's not artificially low, it is low. A low bar is something easily achievable, or a standard low enough to have a high probability of success.

Setting low bars is not uncommon for executives and leaders, you say a goal that has a high amount of variance in interpreting its success. having a 5% chance of making the playoffs vs 45% chance of making the playoffs at any point and you can be playing "meaningful games". I am not blaming Dorion for anything.

It's a low bar, point blank period.

Now when we evaluate it, did we 1) not achieve the goal, 2) barely achieve the goal 3) nailed the goal 4) surpass the goal 5) significantly surpass the goal

It's a low bar especially given all the assets given up in order to reach it: DBC trade, Talbot trade, Chyrchrun trade (and giving up an asset to dump Zaitsev to facilitate this), which significantly narrowed the window of contention to the nearer future. That's why I don't believe that's the bar they set internally, but rather they were aiming for the playoffs starting this year. They're just talking about "meaningful games" to save face.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Exactly what I’ve been saying. These are meaningful games to me. Less than 10 games remaining, your own fates in your hands, only 1/2 other teams to worry about.

Not 20+ games remaining and we have a hope and a prayer should we go 15-5 and other teams falter, like 28/32 of the teams in the league. In a grouping with the 13th-8th in the conference isn’t meaningful with 20+ games remaining, that’s legitimately every single year in the NHL.

Obviously my take of the subjective meaning of meaningful games differs.

I was going to say earlier .. "Meaningful games" is open to interpretation and as such really does not have a true meaning. Or it only has the meaning of an idea in the speaker's mind.

Some people call it a meaningful game if you are mathematically still in it while others don't call it meaningful unless there is a realistic chance of making it.

Dorion will say they met their objective for meaningful games in March. We have people on here defending that interpretation. The meaning of words really only have value if the people using them agree on the definition.

It becomes a philosophical argument on semantics.

 

[Golden_Jet]

No, I am saying the bar was set low because saying "meaningful games" has a large variance of achievement, due to its subjectivity. I proved that by being able to bulk 80% of the conference into playing "meaningful games"

He set a goal that was extremely easy to achieve. It's not artificially low, it is low. A low bar is something easily achievable, or a standard low enough to have a high probability of success.

Setting low bars is not uncommon for executives and leaders, you say a goal that has a high amount of variance in interpreting its success. having a 5% chance of making the playoffs vs 45% chance of making the playoffs at any point and you can be playing "meaningful games". I am not blaming Dorion for anything.

It's a low bar, point blank period.

Now when we evaluate it, did we 1) not achieve the goal, 2) barely achieve the goal 3) nailed the goal 4) surpass the goal 5) significantly surpass the goal

How many points did you think they would get, at the start of the year, I had the team at about 87 points, coming up a little short.

 

[Senscore]

Brady still out here framing them as important games lol. Maybe I'm just a pecimist, but what the heck is he talking about? They're beyond cooked.

Ottawa Senators Brady Tkachuk on crucial games against his brother: 'big games for both teams' | TSN

The Ottawa Senators play two of their nine remaining games against the division-rival Florida Panthers. Those games are crucial for the team, as they trail Florida in the standings, but a bigger personal motivation exists for Sens captain Brady Tkachuk - his brother Matthew is the Panthers'...

www.tsn.ca

If he wants to try and use that framing to get the team motivated to show up to play then fine, whatever. He also said he had faith Sogaard would help lead the team to the Cup one day when he was struggling. Just his type of leadership style.

But if he talks this sort of game up and then the team comes out with a flat effort I'd rather he try a different angle.

 

[aragorn]

Come on, they are meaningful games as long as there is a chance to make the playoffs, everything else is semantics. The games become unmeaningful when there is no chance of being in the playoffs. Dorion was right, I'm not defending him because I'm not a fan of his, but they have been playing meaningful games in March & if they would have won just 4 more games would be tied for a wildcard spot. That's a huge improvement from last yr & a positive catalyst for next season as they should improve a few more positions over the summer.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

If he wants to try and use that framing to get the team motivated to show up to play then fine, whatever. He also said he had faith Sogaard would help lead the team to the Cup one day when he was struggling. Just his type of leadership style.

But if he talks this sort of game up and then the team comes out with a flat effort I'd rather he try a different angle.

For sure. Not saying Brady is doing anything wrong.

My shock was more related to the headline and being top story on TSN than Brady putting on the face for the team like they aren't done yet. They're done, full stop, but I guess TSN is just trying to drum up interest in the game broadcast, so shouldn't have been surprised.

I'm glad some others feel the same in general though. I got talked down to pretty hard here when I questioned the meaning of their "meaningful games" quotes.

 

[Golden_Jet]

For sure. Not saying Brady is doing anything wrong.

My shock was more related to the headline and being top story on TSN than Brady putting on the face for the team like they aren't done yet. They're done, full stop, but I guess TSN is just trying to drum up interest in the game broadcast, so shouldn't have been surprised.

Players don’t give up , like fans do lol. They want to win every night.