McKenzie: Leafs looking at Bernier

[Rants Mulliniks]

Difference between Reimer and Bernier.

Reimer- terrible glove hand, worst recovery starting goaltender in the league. Terrible positioning.

Bernier- has all the talent in the world and has not been given a chance.

The choice is obvious, the question is how much we give up. If Bozak is the best peice we're giving up, I don't think you hesitate.

People here like to say Kadri is a bust and if he was any good he would have forced his way onto the roster in three years. It's been 6 1/2 for Bernier so is "hasn't been given a chance" an acceptable excuse for him given his team also sucked during those years? Sure goalies take longer but let's at least try to even out our arguments around here.

 

[ITM]

Well according to a specialist in Montreal that Reimer later saw, it was NOT a concussion and actually a neck injury.

So I ask you, what about a stiff neck causes him to give up softies consistently for a whole season?

Define "stiff neck"? "Whole" season? He played 34 games...

A neck injury that is serious enough to require a professional athelete to remain absent could easily affect his mobility, reaction time, vision, etc...A goalie coming into an NHL season at it's regular season halfway mark is essentially coming in cold to a game of a different speed than had he resumed play in October. That a goalie coming off an injury mid-season might not regain form isn't exactly precedent setting with James Reimer's play last year.

It's a convenient characterization to remove the residue of coming back post-injury mid-season, a coaching change, and the team's subsequent collapse in front of him all on a weak glove hand...I don't recall that glove hand being weak during his first 37 games as a Leaf...And it doesn't take NHL shooters half a season to decode the holes in a pretender's game.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Yes it is. It's actually a very important distinction.

A distinction isn't a correction. A correction means someone made a factual mistake. They didn't.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

While not as bad as the "Macarthur is being generous" proposals we've heard...

I still think it is not enough.

Bernier needs Frattin+

Adding Clifford doesn't help much...considering he is younger than Frattin and has the ability to be as effective at the NHL as him alone.

Yet you saw Loktionov as a "top prospect" and Colborne as nothing?

 

[lampshade*]

Because he's better than Reimer and has proven that he is consistent.

And not an flash in the pan.

Bomber was hoping you forgot your password after the lockout. Good to see you mate.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Define "stiff neck"? "Whole" season? He played 34 games...

A neck injury that is serious enough to require a professional athelete to remain absent could easily affect his mobility, reaction time, vision, etc...A goalie coming into an NHL season at it's regular season halfway mark is essentially coming in cold to a game of a different speed than had he resumed play in October. That a goalie coming off an injury mid-season might not regain form isn't exactly precedent setting with James Reimer's play last year.

It's a convenient characterization to remove the residue of coming back post-injury mid-season, a coaching change, and the team's subsequent collapse in front of him all on a weak glove hand...I don't recall that glove hand being weak during his first 37 games as a Leaf...And it doesn't take NHL shooters half a season to decode the holes in a pretender's game.

What he's leaving out is the rest of the discussion and how whiplash and concussions can present themselves in pretty much identical ways. He's also leaving out that the reason the distinction was made was because he likes to cling to the notion that there is a massive conspiracy theory amongst Leaf front office to cover up concussions, when in fact what they presented and what two separate doctors verified was identical. It's all part of a schtick.

 

[613Leafer]

People here like to say Kadri is a bust and if he was any good he would have forced his way onto the roster in three years. It's been 6 1/2 for Bernier so is "hasn't been given a chance" an acceptable excuse for him given his team also sucked during those years? Sure goalies take longer but let's at least try to even out our arguments around here.

Goalies are only expected to push for starting positions at Berniers current age...and... They have the reigning Conn Smyth winner / Vezina candidate as their #1.

Forwards, specifically highly drafted skilled forwards who dont play a power game, are expected to crack an NHL lineup after 2-3 years. Kadri only would have had to push himself past the great players that are MacArthur, Bozak, etc.

Granted, I do think Bernier has a lot to prove at the NHL level, his stats havent been the best considering the team he's on. But you can count the goalies on one hand that would surpass Quick on the depth chart. Its pretty much just Lundqvist, maybe Rinne.

I actually think a trade of Kadri for Bernier would be pretty fair. Both are proven at lower levels, neither are proven at the NHL level. Kadri was a higher draft pick, but Bernier has dominated the lower levels more so than Kadri. This is balanced out by the fact that if Bernier doesnt become a starter, he's essentially worth nothing, whereas Kadri can be effective even if he doesnt hit his full potential (he could still be an agitator that puts up ~40 points). I think Bernier has the higher ceiling but the higher risk.

 

[onebighockeyfan]

What other pieces could we be getting from LA?

Goodpoint. Unclear what the Leafs would be giving anyway. The only good option is to overpay greatly for Luongo.We need a real #1. How will we feel if the Hab light up Reimer on Saturday?

 

[onebighockeyfan]

Goalies are only expected to push for starting positions at Berniers current age...and... They have the reigning Conn Smyth winner / Vezina candidate as their #1.

Forwards, specifically highly drafted skilled forwards who dont play a power game, are expected to crack an NHL lineup after 2-3 years. Kadri only would have had to push himself past the great players that are MacArthur, Bozak, etc.

Granted, I do think Bernier has a lot to prove at the NHL level, his stats havent been the best considering the team he's on. But you can count the goalies on one hand that would surpass Quick on the depth chart. Its pretty much just Lundqvist, maybe Rinne.

I actually think a trade of Kadri for Bernier would be pretty fair. Both are proven at lower levels, neither are proven at the NHL level. Kadri was a higher draft pick, but Bernier has dominated the lower levels more so than Kadri. This is balanced out by the fact that if Bernier doesnt become a starter, he's essentially worth nothing, whereas Kadri can be effective even if he doesnt hit his full potential (he could still be an agitator that puts up ~40 points). I think Bernier has the higher ceiling but the higher risk.

MacArthur, Bozak are not exactly great players.

 

[613Leafer]

MacArthur, Bozak are not exactly great players.

...that was my point... I was being sarcastic...pointing out that Bernier has been stuck behind Quick, so the argument that he hasnt become a starter isnt equivalent to Kadri not becoming an NHLer.. Hence the "Kadri only had to..."

 

[Fogelhund]

Bernier has a .910 sv percentage in 48 games in the NHL.

Toskala had a .914 sv percentage in 114 games with San Jose.

------------------------------------------

Toskala was more proven, and better numbers. Bernier might look good, heck Toskala did as well... but Bernier is not very proven.

He isn't someone you can give up a great deal for, and some of the demands of the Kings fans is downright laughable.

 

[Snow Dog]

Goodpoint. Unclear what the Leafs would be giving anyway. The only good option is to overpay greatly for Luongo.We need a real #1. How will we feel if the Hab light up Reimer on Saturday?

Why does almost everybody doubt Reimer's capabilities before he actually plays a game this year.Let's see what he's got.

 

[TheSilencer]

Why does almost everybody doubt Reimer's capabilities before he actually plays a game this year.Let's see what he's got.

Reimer has one of the worst glove hands in the league. If he continues to give up softies like he did last year, it'd be perfect for a successful tank-job. I'm with you on rolling with Reimer this season.

 

[Confucius]

MacArthur, Bozak are not exactly great players.

Kadri is better than Bozak, no doubt in my mind.
Kadri was never given the same opportunity Bozak was. In the 10/11 season Bozak stats were 15G 17A and a minus 29. The result in the following year he plays 1st line center LOL. Bozak given every opportunity because he was Burke's free wallet.

 

[ULF_55]

Why does almost everybody doubt Reimer's capabilities before he actually plays a game this year.Let's see what he's got.

I have no doubt the older Scrivens, who has played 22 games so far this year is more prepared to play on Saturday.

Bernier is Reimer's age, and Scrivens is Quick's age.

On the same teams last year:

Player|GP|Min|GA|GAA|W|L|T|Svs|Pct|EN|SO
Jonathan Quick|69|4099|133|1.95|35|21|13|1730|0.928|1|10
Jonathan Bernier|16|890|35|2.36|5|6|2|348|0.908|1|1

Player Name|GP|Min|GA|GAA|W|L|T|Svs|Pct|EN|SO
Jonas Gustavsson|42|2301|112|2.92|17|17|4|1035|0.902|2|4
James Reimer|34|1879|97|3.10|14|14|4|877|0.9|2|3
Ben Scrivens|12|672|35|3.13|4|5|2|324|0.902|4|0
Jussi Rynnas|2|99|7|4.25|0|1|0|33|0.825|0|0

There was a huge difference between Bernier and Quick last year on the same team.

There was not that same gap at all between Leafs keepers.

Is Bernier a better option, or just played on a much better team?

 

[Pierre Gotye]

Goalies drafted in the 1st round rarely seem to live up to the hype. Recent exceptions are Rask and Luongo.

Rask as a Leaf would have probably looked like a flop though. Unlike in Boston.

I believe Luongos price is too high, and Bernier is a risk.

If Luongo deal includes Gardiner..no way. If Berniers price is Frattin I'm also reluctant.

 

[Chandrashekhar Limit]

Goalies drafted in the 1st round rarely seem to live up to the hype. Recent exceptions are Rask and Luongo.

Rask as a Leaf would have probably looked like a flop though. Unlike in Boston.

I believe Luongos price is too high, and Bernier is a risk.

If Luongo deal includes Gardiner..no way. If Berniers price is Frattin I'm also reluctant.

Who are some top goalies in the next draft we could look at? Because right now, drafting our own guy seems like the best option.

 

[leugangen]

I'd prefer making a move for Bernier than Luongo. Can probably get Bernier straight up for Frattin or for a deal involving MacArthur. That lets us roll him and Reimer all season. Chances are one of them will be playing well at any given time. Bernier wants a trade so he can prove himself as a #1.

 

[gabeliscious]

Goalies drafted in the 1st round rarely seem to live up to the hype. Recent exceptions are Rask and Luongo.

Rask as a Leaf would have probably looked like a flop though. Unlike in Boston.

I believe Luongos price is too high, and Bernier is a risk.

If Luongo deal includes Gardiner..no way. If Berniers price is Frattin I'm also reluctant.

i think if LA is interested in frattin for bernier in a close to straight up situation the leafs need to seriously mull it over. i believe that any trade that would send bernier to the leafs would have to include scrivens as la would need a backup and the leafs have no where to put him.

assuming it was bernier for frattin and scrivens i hope the leafs would do it. everyone is high on frattin here but he is pushing 25 and considering our top 6 wingers are jvr, kessel, and lupul, long term he doesnt really have the pedigree to bump any of them. in the last winger spot he has to bump kulemin, macarthur, and possibly kadri. i just feel like frattin will be lost behind depth on the leafs.

bernier is obvoiusly a gamble but bernier and reimer is a little less scary then reimer and scrivens

 

[Eyedea]

Who are some top goalies in the next draft we could look at? Because right now, drafting our own guy seems like the best option.

Jake Patterson and Eric Comrie maybe?

 

[shakes]

smoke screen. They want Luongo. This is the bluff to let the Canucks know that they are willing to "move on".

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Gustavsson 7 Scrivens actually had a better save % than Reimer last year, I am not sold on Reimer.

 

[SprDaVE]

Jake Patterson and Eric Comrie maybe?

Patterson was drafted by Detroit all ready.

Comrie is eligible to be drafted this year, and he will.

Spencer Martin, Zach Fucale and Philippe Desrosiers are probably the top NA goaltenders to be drafted. Comrie shouldn't be far behind.

I'm sure there's a few European goaltenders too. I just don't know them from the top of my head.

 

[Budsfan]

This deal doesn't have to be done immediately, we should just see what Reimer and Scrivens can do.

If we do have a goal tender problem, it should become apparent over the next month or so and quite the opposite may be the case, either Reimer or Scrivens may prove they can handle the job and we will have no need to get a goal tender.

Randy Carlyle's defensive system may be the Key and it appears that a similar system has been employed by Dallas Eakins on the Marlies, Scrivens has done well and may be the best AHL goal tender and by playing within that system.

 

[Eyedea]

Patterson was drafted by Detroit all ready.

Comrie is eligible to be drafted this year, and he will.

Spencer Martin, Zach Fucale and Philippe Desrosiers are probably the top NA goaltenders to be drafted. Comrie shouldn't be far behind.

I'm sure there's a few European goaltenders too. I just don't know them from the top of my head.

Paterson was drafted, not Patterson.

I see him as a 3rd round pick in Button's recent draft rankings, and his stats do look good, albeit on a stacked London Knights team. I think he might be a good choice for us in the 3rd round, but I haven't really seen him play so I can't be the judge of that.