McDavid and Matthews have to wait to overtake Crosby

[DANTHEMAN1967]

Matthews is never going to average as many points or play a flashy style that Mcdavid plays, but their value to their respective teams might be similar. Remember how dominant someone like Zetterberg was in his prime, mentioned among the best but never actually being near the best. Doesn't mean his impact was any less the way he played the game overall.

Eichel has a better shot at matching Mcdavid in scoring

Matthews lead the NHL in most goals, 5 on 5, as a rookie on a line with 2 other rookies but Eichel is closer to McDavid?
Buffalo fans are so jealous, maybe you'll win this years draft lottery.

 

[McFlyingV]

Where are you getting this from?

From what I see, Crosby had better CF%, FF%, and SF% than McDavid this season. He also had better relative stats in the above categories as well.

CF%:
Crosby - 53.8
McDavid - 52.9

FF%:
Crosby - 54.1
McDavid - 54.0

SF%:
Crosby - 54.7
McDavid - 53.7

Link to the above information.



The above is kind of a big deal defensively, especially when you're boxing players out and winning board battles in the defensive zone when you're trying to prevent the other team from scoring.

That doesn't even touch on the fact a lot of the time McDavid's the first forward blowing the defensive zone, with Draisaitl almost taking the center's defensive responsibilities for that line. In contrast, Crosby's the guy who plays deep in the defensive zone for his line.

This is false. McDavid only blows the zone when he recognizes his team is gaining possession and realizes a safe opportunity for a breakaway.

No doubt McDavid isn't as strong in board battles or boxing players out, but his stick work is exceptional, and his speed and explosiveness allows him to make numerous defensive plays that Crosby never could, just like Crosby's strength allows him to make ones that at this point McDavid can't. Doesn't really bother me. McDavid will get bigger and stronger and become much stronger in those areas to go along with his elite skating and superior range he can cover being faster, taller, with a larger wingspan.

 

[Jabba11]

Wait wait.....how many of those "records" are actually rewriting the record books...... you want to know what rewriting record books look like pull up Gretzky, Pull up Orr....Pull up Howe....., Dont be pulling up Crosby because of when he was born..allowing him to own records others have no control over.

Here McDavid already owns 2 records then...youngest captain in history, youngest captain to ever lead his team to the second round...already owns 2 woohooo

I see that you had to edit your post

I'm glad that my argument made you go back and think about what you first said.

Honestly, don't play the innocent here, and tell me exactly what is not "history rewriting" worthy in Crosby's resume?

I'm pretty sure you'll have less non worthy than worthy ones. If the contrary, than you're just lying to yourself.

 

[McFlyingV]

That actually makes my argument stronger. It's not Crosby's fault that Gretzky or Lemieux couldn't participate in more international tournaments.

Look at it this way: Gretzky and Lemieux were scoring like mad men in the era where goaltenders were nowhere near the talent and shape of today's goaltenders, right?

Just like the fact, Crosby will probably never score 2000 points in this era, but that's not Gretzky and Lemieux's fault.

But you don't see me complaining about it. Hockey is not only the NHL. It's the sport. And the sport is played both in domestic league and international ice. Maybe Crosby won't score more points that Gretzky by the end of his career in the NHL, but he's in or has been in the era of the sport where he excelled on both ice(NHL and international). That's history. That's how it is. Why should we try to bring cheap facts to counter it? Btw, you use the term "never be regarded" ... I don't think it's that silly for this generation to see Crosby as the best player in the NHL. I respect your opinion but don't say I have to credibility in mine.

Era adjusted goalscoring still doesn't rank Crosby ahead of either of them though, so we can certainly infer that Crosby would not have produced like they did in that era. We can't, however, infer that Gretzky or Lemieux would not have won more international events than Crosby. If he re-wrote history by default in that regard then so be it. As I have already stated many of the accomplishments you posted about Crosby are due solely to his birth month being later in the year rather than him actually accomplishing more at an earlier stage of his NHL career.

I didn't say your opinion lacked credibility, I said using international accomplishments that Gretzky and Lemieux weren't allowed to participate in as proof that Crosby was a superior international player lacked credibility.

I would not question that in this generation of hockey (the last decade) Crosby is the best player in the NHL. I would however laugh at the suggestion that he is the best player to ever play.

 

[Pancakes]

Context is a thing. 120 points but scoring was higher. Sophomore Mcdavid won the art by ten points over prime sid.

Not enough to make up a 20 point difference between them I don't think.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

This is false. McDavid only blows the zone when he recognizes his team is gaining possession and realizes a safe opportunity for a breakaway.

No doubt McDavid isn't as strong in board battles or boxing players out, but his stick work is exceptional, and his speed and explosiveness allows him to make numerous defensive plays that Crosby never could, just like Crosby's strength allows him to make ones that at this point McDavid can't. Doesn't really bother me. McDavid will get bigger and stronger and become much stronger in those areas to go along with his elite skating and superior range he can cover being faster, taller, with a larger wingspan.

He probably will. But this thread is about *right now*, and I'd argue that *right now* Crosby is the better complete player.

Also, I think you undersell Crosby's own stick work (ie. lifting sticks, tying up his man, intercepting pucks and clogging passing lanes) in the defensive zone. He's actually quite good at that.

I also don't like the premise of this idea that "best player in hockey" is transferred after one single season. Patrick Kane didn't become the undisputed best player in the league last year just because he won the Art Ross. Jamie Benn didn't become the undisputed best player in hockey two years ago when he won his Art Ross. I think "best player in the league" is a title you earn over years of being the best or near the best in the league.

Crosby didn't earn the title in 2006 when he scored 120 points. He earned it for his 10+ years of being one of the top players pretty much each and every season.

 

[swiftwin]

How can Karlsson be better than Crosby/Mcdavid when he's not even clearly the best defenseman.

ok bud.

 

[McFlash]

That actually makes my argument stronger. It's not Crosby's fault that Gretzky or Lemieux couldn't participate in more international tournaments.

Look at it this way: Gretzky and Lemieux were scoring like mad men in the era where goaltenders were nowhere near the talent and shape of today's goaltenders, right?

Just like the fact, Crosby will probably never score 2000 points in this era, but that's not Gretzky and Lemieux's fault.

But you don't see me complaining about it. Hockey is not only the NHL. It's the sport. And the sport is played both in domestic league and international ice. Maybe Crosby won't score more points that Gretzky by the end of his career in the NHL, but he's in or has been in the era of the sport where he excelled on both ice(NHL and international). That's history. That's how it is. Why should we try to bring cheap facts to counter it? Btw, you use the term "never be regarded" ... I don't think it's that silly for this generation to see Crosby as the best player in the NHL. I respect your opinion but don't say I have to credibility in mine.

Can't believe I'm arguing this hard for a Penguins player...jk

Maybe if you weren't so biased with in the east coast and actually tuned into the Oilers and McDavid on late nights..you could appreciate what's happening and simply what type of talent this guy is and then look at the McDavid comparisons more objectively. No one said Crosby wasn't the best player the last 10 years. McDavid is simply so astounding that a lot of us in the west who get to watch both all the time have come to the conclusion there is now someone better then Crosby. He might not be as experienced or as savvy. But he is better.

 

[McFlyingV]

He probably will. But this thread is about *right now*, and I'd argue that *right now* Crosby is the better complete player.

Also, I think you undersell Crosby's own stick work (ie. lifting sticks, tying up his man, intercepting pucks and clogging passing lanes) in the defensive zone. He's actually quite good at that.

I also don't like the premise of this idea that "best player in hockey" is transferred after one single season. Patrick Kane didn't become the undisputed best player in the league last year just because he won the Art Ross. Jamie Benn didn't become the undisputed best player in hockey two years ago when he won his Art Ross. I think "best player in the league" is a title you earn over years of being the best or near the best in the league.

Crosby didn't earn the title in 2006 when he scored 120 points. He earned it for his 10+ years of being one of the top players pretty much each and every season.

I suppose if you want to assess every component of a hockey player possible then you're probably right. I was more addressing the defensive side of things and how McDavid imo does some thing better, while Crosby does other things better in that regard.

And fair point about earning best player in hockey. I'd argue McDavid was the best player in the regular season this year, but he will need to continue to do that going forward to be recognized as such.

 

[Jabba11]

Era adjusted goalscoring still doesn't rank Crosby ahead of either of them though, so we can certainly infer that Crosby would not have produced like they did in that era. We can't, however, infer that Gretzky or Lemieux would not have won more international events than Crosby. If he re-wrote history by default in that regard then so be it. As I have already stated many of the accomplishments you posted about Crosby are due solely to his birth month being later in the year rather than him actually accomplishing more at an earlier stage of his NHL career.

I didn't say your opinion lacked credibility, I said using international accomplishments that Gretzky and Lemieux weren't allowed to participate in as proof that Crosby was a superior international player lacked credibility.

I would not question that in this generation of hockey (the last decade) Crosby is the best player in the NHL. I would however laugh at the suggestion that he is the best player to ever play.

I'm just arguing with you about the fact that you judge me on the "Crosby rewriting history". I didn't say that he will beat Gretzky or Lemieux or anybody else. But I wanted to show you that you undermined Crosby's achievements and how he has been rewriting history. He has been rewriting history.

Be honest, it's easy to laugh at my claim, but Crosby has been actually rewriting history. You don't need to be the first person to invent the lightbulb or the telephone or even discoverying physics equations to be rewriting history, you can be the one who created for example...FACEBOOK.. and still be rewriting history. That's my analogy...a bit weird but hope you get it.

There you go: Isaac Newton is probably considered one of the best if not the most influential scientist or mathematician in history, but didn't keep Einstein or Galileo or Darwin or Tesla to rewrite history as well. (Pretty sure my timeline is not correct but you get it)

 

[Neatman]

Not enough to make up a 20 point difference between them I don't think.

You need to remember how the games were called in 05-06. PP opportunities were absolutely ridiculous.

Crosby's proportion of points scored on the PP that year dwarfs McDavid's, which is a huge reason why his production was higher. Way way more opportunities on the PP.

Regarding these playoffs, I have to think McDavid is playing injured. He is not nearly as explosive as he was during the regular season and I do not think the tight checking can account for it. He never had issues playing playoff teams in the regular season, and it wasn't like they weren't game planning around him then too.

 

[Jabba11]

Maybe if you weren't so biased with in the east coast and actually tuned into the Oilers and McDavid on late nights..you could appreciate what's happening and simply what type of talent this guy is and then look at the McDavid comparisons more objectively. No one said Crosby wasn't the best player the last 10 years. McDavid is simply so astounding that a lot of us in the west who get to watch both all the time have come to the conclusion there is now someone better then Crosby. He might not be as experienced or as savvy. But he is better.

I actually have fun arguing with McFlyingV, but you McFlash, you're just plain annoying with your counter arguments.

I'm not here to debate Crosby vs McDavid even though that's what this thread is about. I'm here to defend you attacking my claim of Crosby rewriting history.

I agree with what you've just said. Don't take me as a fool, I follow McDavid. Don't worry about that. Your turn, can you agree that Crosby is rewriting the sports history?

 

[McFlyingV]

I'm just arguing with you about the fact that you judge me on the "Crosby rewriting history". I didn't say that he will beat Gretzky or Lemieux or anybody else. But I wanted to show you that you undermined Crosby's achievements and how he has been rewriting history. He has been rewriting history.

Be honest, it's easy to laugh at my claim, but Crosby has been actually rewriting history. You don't need to be the first person to invent the lightbulb or the telephone or even discoverying physics equations to be rewriting history, you can be the one who created for example...FACEBOOK.. and still be rewriting history. That's my analogy...a bit weird but hope you get it.

There you go: Isaac Newton is probably considered one of the best if not the most influential scientist or mathematician in history, but didn't keep Einstein or Galileo or Darwin or Tesla to rewrite history as well. (Pretty sure my timeline is not correct but you get it)

I understand what you're saying, I just don't find a lot of the history that you're speaking of very relevant, and I have already explained why a number of those achievements are just obscure achievements determined by the month of the year that he was born in.

If Crosby went out and say won 11 Art Ross trophies to surpass Gretzky's total then absolutely I'd say thats incredible this guys re-writing history. I suppose we just prioritize differently and have different views on hockey history and what excites or impresses us.

 

[D0ctorCool]

If McDavid is just entering his prime and looks about as good as Crosby who is just leaving his prime, why then can't McDavid be better than Crosby?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

McDavid blew Crosby out at the end. A 19/20 year old. How does it feel...Crosby's last ditch effort.....failed. It's ok. Next Year......maybe Crosby won't spot him a 7 game lead. Anyone can see McDavid is the true heir to Gretzky. They both push the pace and set up plays. Once Connor gets his shot right. This thing is over fast.

You mean McDavid with Draisaitl blew past Crosby for the scoring title? Yeah, that did happen.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

If McDavid is just entering his prime and looks about as good as Crosby who is just leaving his prime, why then can't McDavid be better than Crosby?

Are you just stat watching or actually watching them play? Look at McDavid in the playoffs when Draisaitl was taken off. Explains a **** load there buddy.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

This is false. McDavid only blows the zone when he recognizes his team is gaining possession and realizes a safe opportunity for a breakaway.

This just isn't true. You could argue that McDavid flying the zone is worth it due to the space and high-quality chances he creates on the rush, but denying he does so is an opinion from imaginary land.

I've seen him do it multiple times every Oilers playoff game I've watched, and he did it much more often in the regular season.

 

[Jabba11]

I understand what you're saying, I just don't find a lot of the history that you're speaking of very relevant, and I have already explained why a number of those achievements are just obscure achievements determined by the month of the year that he was born in.

If Crosby went out and say won 11 Art Ross trophies to surpass Gretzky's total then absolutely I'd say thats incredible this guys re-writing history. I suppose we just prioritize differently and have different views on hockey history and what excites or impresses us.

That I agree. But you know why we have this discussion?

Because the league is turning towards a new era of players. McDavid, Draisaitl, Laine, Matthews, Ekblad, Barkov, Scheifele, Pastrnak, Ehlers, Marner, Gaudreau, Monahan, MacKinnon, even Forsberg, Monahan, Eichel...they're all upcoming young NHLers that brings excitement and new skill to the league. Crosby is in his prime, don't know when he'll comes down, but the league is changing. You won't see players like Giroux or Getzlaf dominating the league in points anymore. That's what happening and it's creating these debates. This upcoming class... is gonna be special. Real special

 

[34]

How can Karlsson be better than Crosby/Mcdavid when he's not even clearly the best defenseman.

Easy, he is NOT better. Sens homers will say it though. Lol

 

[SecretOilersFan]

Funny enough I kinda of enjoy that this is somewhat true and that we are still winning. Maybe it will stop people from assuming that we are a one line team.

 

[McFlyingV]

You need to remember how the games were called in 05-06. PP opportunities were absolutely ridiculous.

Crosby's proportion of points scored on the PP that year dwarfs McDavid's, which is a huge reason why his production was higher. Way way more opportunities on the PP.

Regarding these playoffs, I have to think McDavid is playing injured. He is not nearly as explosive as he was during the regular season and I do not think the tight checking can account for it. He never had issues playing playoff teams in the regular season, and it wasn't like they weren't game planning around him then too.

Not sure I buy that McDavid is injured, maybe he got some of the flu that was going around, but I guess we'll see if anything comes out once the playoffs are over. I think he's playing a little safer because he recognizes turnovers can be costly in playoffs, and I think he's being checked tighter than he's used to because the refs let substantially more obstruction type stuff go in the playoffs.

Then again he may just be going through a mini slump. He had one during the season where he only had 7 assists in 10 games and everyone was freaking out and then he exploded for something like 15 in his next 7. If the Oilers make it all the way through the west and he still hasnt climbed up to ppg in the playoffs then maybe theres some concern over his play/potential injuries to discuss. I think its far too premature at this point.

 

[Future GOAT]

You need to remember how the games were called in 05-06. PP opportunities were absolutely ridiculous.

Crosby's proportion of points scored on the PP that year dwarfs McDavid's, which is a huge reason why his production was higher. Way way more opportunities on the PP.

Regarding these playoffs, I have to think McDavid is playing injured. He is not nearly as explosive as he was during the regular season and I do not think the tight checking can account for it. He never had issues playing playoff teams in the regular season, and it wasn't like they weren't game planning around him then too.

It's funny, I was thinking the same thing and had a discussion in another forum about this with someone else who brought it up. I've noticed McDavid has been slow and sluggish in his movement and seems to be labored at times. At first I chocked it up to him having a cold or being tired, but I can't see a healthy 20 year old being fatigued like that.

 

[McFlyingV]

That I agree. But you know why we have this discussion?

Because the league is turning towards a new era of players. McDavid, Draisaitl, Laine, Matthews, Ekblad, Barkov, Scheifele, Pastrnak, Ehlers, Marner, Gaudreau, Monahan, MacKinnon, even Forsberg, Monahan, Eichel...they're all upcoming young NHLers that brings excitement and new skill to the league. Crosby is in his prime, don't know when he'll comes down, but the league is changing. You won't see players like Giroux or Getzlaf dominating the league in points anymore. That's what happening and it's creating these debates. This upcoming class... is gonna be special. Real special

Yeah I agree, the games moving towards a lot more of a speed game and it has a ton of potential to be special and exciting to watch. I just really hope the league adjusts officiating to enhance the direction that the product (star NHL players) is headed rather than allowing the officiating in its current state to continue. There's so much potential for the NHL to be much more exciting than it is, the league just needs to recognize it.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Matthews lead the NHL in most goals, 5 on 5, as a rookie on a line with 2 other rookies but Eichel is closer to McDavid?
Buffalo fans are so jealous, maybe you'll win this years draft lottery.

I see Matthews and Eichel on similar levels, both are very good players. Matthews is an underrated goal scorer.

 

[McFlash]

Are you just stat watching or actually watching them play? Look at McDavid in the playoffs when Draisaitl was taken off. Explains a **** load there buddy.

Why are you arguing semantics man ? McDavids first playoffs he put up 4 points in 6 on San Jose ...what did Crosby drop on the Sharks in his 10th season in the finals.....a meagre 4 assists. Get over it. McDavids performance agaist the sharks was on par with Crosbys..and guess what McDavid and co beat the sharks on 6 too........guess where Sydney led the pens in his first playoffs.....on the golf course after 4 games.