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Marty St. Louis

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Ian said:
So can the "woe is me, every move is horrendous unless it ends up building a cup winner" approach.
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Every move like the Nash and MSL ones have blown up in the Rangers' face over the decades.

Sure, Brandon Dubinsky/Ryan Callahan and Mike Ridley/Kelly Miller are a generation apart, but the organizational thinking remains the same. Yet, legions of fans keep insisting that it'll be different this time. It never is.
 
Ian said:
By evaluating that individual move?

Signing Dom Moore to a 1 year deal was a bad use of assets because the Rangers didn't win the Stanley Cup this year.
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You really want to compare the scope of signing Dom Moore to trading for MSL? The Dom Moore signing is a one year commitment. The MSL trade will have lingering effects for years when it comes to building a Stanley Cup winner. Because, as Sather refuses to understand, building a Stanley Cup winning team takes a few years, not a few moves.
 
Ian said:
By evaluating that individual move?

Signing Dom Moore to a 1 year deal was a bad use of assets because the Rangers didn't win the Stanley Cup this year.
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The difference with MSL is that he was acquired to take us to that next level.


"I think he’s terrific and the guy that’s coming in helps us advance farther than we expected to this year,†said President and Genreral Manager of the New York Rangers Glen Sather. “It’s not often you get the chance to acquire a guy like Marty St. Louis, a dynamic player in his own right.â€

“There are a lot of contenders right now,†Sather said. “If you look around the league, it’s very close in each conference. Hopefully this is going to put us over the edge and make us a little closer to a obtaining our goal.â€
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http://www.greenwich-post.com/23875...angers-acquiring-greenwich-resident-st-louis/
 
Ian said:
By evaluating that individual move?

Signing Dom Moore to a 1 year deal was a bad use of assets because the Rangers didn't win the Stanley Cup this year.
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Dom Moore also did not cost us any hockey assets.
 
Jersey Girl said:
Dom Moore also did not cost us any hockey assets.
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Salary, minutes given to him that could have been given to younger players to advance their careers, the option of having a lesser valued player do his role and use that money elsewhere = all assets.

Not to mention, the team clearly didn't advance any farther they then have in the past, so he should have been dealt at the deadline for a 3rd or 4th, since that would improve the team's chances of building a winner down the road. So him being on the team cost them hockey assets as well.
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway said:
You really want to compare the scope of signing Dom Moore to trading for MSL? The Dom Moore signing is a one year commitment. The MSL trade will have lingering effects for years when it comes to building a Stanley Cup winner. Because, as Sather refuses to understand, building a Stanley Cup winning team takes a few years, not a few moves.
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Any move that doesn't directly lead to the team winning a Stanley Cup is a move that shouldn't be made.

That's the argument spouted all over this forum in regards to the Rangers "throwing away the future" with a single trade, or "setting back the franchise" because they don't have a 1st round pick again.

That's a bat**** comment, just like comparing Moore and MSL.

If you're going to judge a move off the Rangers advancing to the cup and winning something that's a 1/30 shot (with odds that are clearly worse than that), then judge all moves by that same logic. Or please don't, because it's beyond idiotic.
 
Ian said:
Salary, minutes given to him that could have been given to younger players to advance their careers, the option of having a lesser valued player do his role and use that money elsewhere = all assets.
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OK, who? One of the biggest knocks I've had is Sather hasn't been able to develop third-fourth line players to inject youth and some cost-certainty to the lineup?

Ian said:
Not to mention, the team clearly didn't advance any farther they then have in the past, so he should have been dealt at the deadline for a 3rd or 4th, since that would improve the team's chances of building a winner down the road. So him being on the team cost them hockey assets as well.
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If they had options in-house, I'm sure he would have been dealt.
 
Ian said:
Salary, minutes given to him that could have been given to younger players to advance their careers, the option of having a lesser valued player do his role and use that money elsewhere = all assets.
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Totally different argument, at least from me. My issue with St Louis is what we gave up to get him - sacrificing the future for what so far has been no return. If it was only about St Louis's salary - which, to be honest, I'm not even sure exactly what it is, but I do know he's only signed through next year - it would be MUCH less painful on my end.
 
Jersey Girl said:
Totally different argument, at least from me. My issue with St Louis is what we gave up to get him - sacrificing the future for what so far has been no return. If it was only about St Louis's salary - which, to be honest, I'm not even sure exactly what it is - it would be MUCH less painful.
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I will agree with you in the disappointment on the return thus far. He's been frustrating at his "best" thus far.

Still, it's far too early to make any decelerations on what this deal will look like in a few years, or how much of a "sacrifice" has been made.
 
Ian said:
I will agree with you in the disappointment on the return thus far. He's been frustrating at his "best" thus far.

Still, it's far too early to make any decelerations on what this deal will look like in a few years, or how much of a "sacrifice" has been made.
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It's not far too early at all. St Louis is signed through this year and next - that's it. After that he's a UFA and he could have signed here anyway, so anything after next season is not part of the trade.

So St Louis is here for two playoff runs, and he's been 'frustrating at best' and 'disappointing at worst' in the first one. And yes, I get this playoff run, as much as it feels like it's over, is not over yet. Heck, go look at my 'Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?' thread from last year when we were down 3-0 to the Bruins - I always hold out hope until the bitter end.

That said, raise your hand if you think St Louis is ready to take us from this point on a Conn Smythe-type run to the Stanley Cup THIS year. My hand is down. And if it turns out I'm wrong, I will tell you exactly where I will be standing on the parade route so people like you can come and drown me in 'I told you so's' - even though I won't give a **** what you're saying because I'll be too busy drowning in champagne!
 
It would be bad enough if he was just invisible. Brad Richards was invisible last night, and he did more for the team than MSL because MSL has become DETRIMENTAL to the team.

How many passes directly onto a Penguins stick?

How many lost puck battles?

How many turnovers off of a cute stickhandle?

Add the Kunitz goal where MSL skated right by him.

I was against the move but still holding out hope, last night was the last straw for me.
 
Captain Monglobster said:
It would be bad enough if he was just invisible. Brad Richards was invisible last night, and he did more for the team than MSL because MSL has become DETRIMENTAL to the team.

How many passes directly onto a Penguins stick?

How many lost puck battles?

How many turnovers off of a cute stickhandle?

Add the Kunitz goal where MSL skated right by him.

I was against the move but still holding out hope, last night was the last straw for me.
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Last night was shocking to me as well. My concerns regarding what we gave up for St Louis were based on assumptions he would play well, but even he wouldn't be enough to bring us 'over the edge'. I had no idea he could even possibly play as poorly as he did last night.

Absolutely amazing that a player with such a long and illustrious winning career, who was still playing at the top of his game as recently as last season and earlier this season, could play like that. He looked nervous, scared, and was repeatedly making incredibly bad decisions.

Bounce back Marty. Please.
 
Jersey Girl said:
Last night was shocking to me as well. My concerns regarding what we gave up for St Louis were based on assumptions he would play well, but even he wouldn't be enough to bring us 'over the edge'. I had no idea he could even possibly play as poorly as he did last night.

Absolutely amazing that a player with such a long and illustrious winning career, who was still playing at the top of his game as recently as last season and earlier this season, could play like that. He looked nervous, scared, and was repeatedly making incredibly bad decisions.

Bounce back Marty. Please.
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Makes Messier seem even more like a Messiah doesn't it. His first year as a Ranger he had 107 points. His third they won the Cup. Even though hockey is a distant 4th in the local sports market, most players cannot handle the media, the fans or the Garden. Regardless how good they were in Tampa, Columbus or Dallas. None of those markets are New York and the players don't realize that until they start playing their home games at the Garden. Until the Rangers can find another Messier in his prime they will not ever sniff another cup. And that may not be for another 54 years!
 
WHat I said back then...after being shocked it was just picks and b/c I thought MSL wanting out was a bit of bs up until then.

shinchanyo said:
"Bit of reality. Still no top C, offensive D man. Team likely with a very low shot to win it all the next two years. Richards still needs to be cut. So a LOT can get ******** between now and the time St. louis is up for a new contract.

Lastly it better be a lottery protected first. Some people are severely overrating the value of a first round pick especially a likely late one but if it turns out to be a lotto pick and we were too stupid to protect it that'll piss me off. When's the last time a 1st round FORWARD of ours became half of what St. Louis is right now and what he likely will be for the next few years?"
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Never would have predicted MSL being such a bad player in terms of actual performance. Not many did. He was a top 10 scorer in the league THIS year when we traded for him. Since we never draft top 10 scorers in any round I wasn't too upset with giving up a late 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder.

Of course there has always been legit reason to worry he would only continue to be a top 10 scorer for 2 years at most...I figured MSL might break down in 2 years but that'd be 2016 and we'd have our picks that year so who cares if we tank from 2016-2018? We had our decade run of PO's so if we tank for a year or two that's the nature of the business and I can swallow that.

Complaints about jettisoning the picks are warranted, but my God it seems to have turned out to be 1 game of playing like a top scorer. (his first game he looked great despite being held scoreless).

I was always hopeful for next year 2014-2015 too. Still am. If we make the PO's again next year then it really isn't all that bad losing the picks in the MSL trade.

If we tank the year after though 2015-2016 when MSL is gone it's ok. Nash will have only 2 years left at that point. If Hank collapses in 2016 and 2017 then we'd have our picks in those two drafts so it wouldn't hurt the future.
 
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Last night was as bad a performance by a forward that didn't get benched that I have seen in 50 years.

My guess is that Nash gave him a million to look worse than him in this series.
 
chosen said:
Last night was as bad a performance by a forward that didn't get benched that I have seen in 50 years.

My guess is that Nash gave him a million to look worse than him in this series.
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Torts' line shuffling was maddening at times.

But I was much more frustrated at AV whistling dixie and continuing to roll the same 4 lines when the team was turning in such a dreadful performance
 
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