Player Discussion Marner

[notbias]

Nobody hates Mitch Marner. You keep saying that it's hatred but it isn't and that is really a really strange thing to do.

You lose all credibility when you attempt to lump people that dislike his contract and style of play with haters. I mean he has a personality sort of like a young thin geeky Trump where he never accepts fault or admits to his shortcomings but even still, people here are not hating on him.

Why are you speaking for others? Stange.

The way people talk about him and make it personal, I can definitely make the assumption that some hate him.

You are attacking his personality and comparing him to someone many people hate... definitely helping my case.

 

[ACC1224]

I imagine most chalk up all the Marner hate to insecurity.

 

[Gallagbi]

I removed it because I dislike how the message board automatically attaches posts when they're made back-to-back. My plan was to repost it later.

No one is saying Marner sucks. You and a few others keep pushing this narrative that critics "hate" him. It’s an easier target because you know it's harder to argue against what we actually think: "He's incredibly overpaid, and that money could be better allocated elsewhere."

When analytics show that last year he negatively affected goal creation and that his impact was only slightly above the average player (average players make $3 million, he makes $11 million), you ignored it. Instead, you resort to childish comments like, "That's nice, Berube likes him."

Okay, so Ill played along. Here it is:

... Bednar uses Drouin just as much as Berube is using Marner, but Drouin makes $2.5 million.

What's your point, and how is it relevant to my post that YOU responded to?

What's the stat you're using for goal creation?

 

[notbias]

What's the stat you're using for goal creation?

Likely the one that has Matthews > McDavid.

So I'd be curious about how he views that.

 

[Antropovsky]

Here is how cherry-picked your stats are.

Drouin has played one game and is 5th on his team in TOI.

All you do is find very specific stats that paint Marner in a bad light but don't show overall impact, and then say "see!".

Here are two you haven't addressed and I'd like you to.

You brought up the impact of linemates and how important it is.

How overrated are Point, Draisaitl, and Rantanen? They all arguably play with a better player than Matthews.

You bring up goals often with Marner, so how much better is Matthews than McDavid?

How about $5.5 million Trocheck? Is he worth more than Panarin since he plays more minutes?

This has been explained already by numerous posters: Marner plays PK, which is why his ice time is slightly higher than Matthews and Nylander.

Of course, he gets big offensive minutes too, there’s a huge drop-off after the Core Four. From $11 million players, it falls to guys like Domi, Jarnkrok, Kampf, and Reaves. And let’s be honest, most people think 3 out of 4 of those guys are barely NHL players at this point.

A big reason Marner plays with Matthews (the teams best player) because he can't drive his own line like Nylander can—Keefe pretty much admitted this in the past—and because Marner doesn’t play center. There isn’t a better option either, and that’s because of how much money is tied up in the Core Four.

So his big minutes are easily explained.

Here's my question, since you keep ignoring the article: Marner’s offensive impact last year was only slightly better than an average skater, and he had a negative impact on goal creation for his lines.

Does playing on the PK justify his $11 million contract when, according to advanced stats, his offensive contributions were barely above an average NHL player?

 

[Antropovsky]

What's the stat you're using for goal creation?

Not my stats, from this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5212957/2024/01/19/mitch-marner-maple-leafs-points/

Has a paywall. I posted numeroud quites from the article a few pages back.

The author used these:
Data via Evolving-Hockey, HockeyViz, HockeyStatCards, AllThreeZones, and NaturalStatTrick. This story relies on shot-based metrics; here is a primer on these numbers

A chart from the article:

 

[notbias]

How about $5.5 million Trocheck? Is he worth more than Panarin since he plays more minutes?

Again, your contract talk is nonsense and something you brought up.

I just mentioned that Berube thinks Marner > Nylander, you started discussing contracts, and you are arguing with yourself.

This has been explained already by numerous posters: Marner plays PK, which is why his ice time is slightly higher than Matthews and Nylander.

Slightly?

Almost 4 minutes a game is not slightly.

He gets 1 minute extra of even strength time as well, and this is with Marner taking PK reps so he needs time to rest after the PK, this is more than I thought.

Of course, he gets big offensive minutes too, there’s a huge drop-off after the Core Four. From $11 million players, it falls to guys like Domi, Järnkrok, Kämpf, and Reaves. And let’s be honest, most people think 3 out of 4 of those guys are barely NHL players at this point.

A big reason Marner plays with Matthews (the teams best player) because he can't drive his own line like Nylander can—Keefe pretty much admitted this in the past—and because Marner doesn’t play center. There isn’t a better option either, and that’s because of how much money is tied up in the Core Four.

This didn't address my question.

Here's my question, since you keep ignoring the article: Marner’s offensive impact last year was only slightly better than an average skater, and he had a negative impact on goal creation for his lines.

Does playing on the PK justify his $11 million contract when, according to advanced stats, his offensive contributions were barely above average?

No, his overall play does.

Not my stats, from this article:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5212957/2024/01/19/mitch-marner-maple-leafs-points/

Has a paywall. I posted numeroud quites from the article a few pages back.

Matthews is better at goals created than McDavid most years, thoughts?

And this is with a bad linemate (according to you), and you also said that linemates are very important...

Clearly you think Matthews > McDavid, right?

 

[thewave]

Why are you speaking for others? Stange.

The way people talk about him and make it personal, I can definitely make the assumption that some hate him.

You are attacking his personality and comparing him to someone many people hate... definitely helping my case.

He acts the same way on camera. That smug " we are like gods" attitude is totally DTesque lol.

Show someone that admits they hate Mitch? How do you know? It's called flaming or even gaslighting and if you direct it at individuals you could be given an infraction if they report you. I don't do that sort of thing but some do.

No evidence of hate towards Mitch is present. Maybe dislike characteristics or play style, results etc. Sure

 

[notbias]

He acts the same way on camera. That smug " we are like gods" attitude is totally DTesque lol.

I think that is how you interpreted it, I don't think that is the consensus, maybe your hatred is getting in the way.

Show someone that admits they hate Mitch? How do you know? It's called flaming or even gaslighting and if you direct it at individuals you could be given an infraction if they report you. I don't do that sort of thing but some do.

Ok.

No evidence of hate towards Mitch is present.

How people discuss him makes me think some hate him.

 

[Antropovsky]

Again, your contract talk is nonsense and something you brought up.

I just mentioned that Berube thinks Marner > Nylander, you started discussing contracts, and you are arguing with yourself.



Slightly?

Almost 4 minutes a game is not slightly.

He gets 1 minute extra of even strength time as well, and this is with Marner taking PK reps so he needs time to rest after the PK, this is more than I thought.



This didn't address my question.



No, his overall play does.



Matthews is better at goals created than McDavid most years, thoughts?

And this is with a bad linemate (according to you), and you also said that linemates are very important...

Clearly you think Matthews > McDavid, right?

His overall play makes him worth 11?

Again you ignored the question.


its very simple:

the article i cited indicates Marners impact was that only slightly better than an average NHL player. it also indicatws hw made a negative impact on goal creation for his lines.

So... being slightly better than an average player and having negative impact in goal creation while being a good PKer makes Marner worth 11 million?


I actually do think Matthews an argument can be made that Matthews >Mcdavid. Thank you very much. I wonder what Matthews stats would look like with a Draisaitl like linemate.

 

[thewave]

I think that is how you interpreted it, I don't think that is the consensus, maybe your hatred is getting in the way.



Ok.



How people discuss him makes me think some hate him.

He isn't an overly likable guy on camera but not really someone you would hate either. He does put up points.

I can tell you something I do hate. The Leafs cap management has been atrocious. I hate the contracts they are most often pretty bad.

 

[bax]

Last year the same posters were comparing him to Gretzky... yet he was actually having a NEGATIVE effect on goal creation for his lines and an impact of SLIGHTLY better than the AVERAGE nhl player for his team.

Keep in mind, this was from the last SEASON. Imagine how much worse it gets for him in the postseason!

who the hell said that? That's pretty f***ed up lol

 

[Antropovsky]

He acts the same way on camera. That smug " we are like gods" attitude is totally DTesque lol.

Show someone that admits they hate Mitch? How do you know? It's called flaming or even gaslighting and if you direct it at individuals you could be given an infraction if they report you. I don't do that sort of thing but some do.

No evidence of hate towards Mitch is present. Maybe dislike characteristics or play style, results etc. Sure

Id take Marner on my team any day of the week....but no A on his chest and certainly alot less paid. At best he would be like a Kessel to the Pittsburgh Penguins but I think Marner is less of an impact player than Kessel was then.

 

[francis246]

who the hell said that? That's pretty f***ed up lol

I’m curious to know as well

 

[thewave]

Id take Marner on my team any day of the week....but no A on his chest and certainly alot less paid. At best he would be like a Kessel to the Pittsburgh Penguins but I think Marner is less of an impact player than Kessel was then.

No A, 9m and limited trade clause would be fine in today's market. Considering he is seeking 13ish... no way.

 

[notbias]

who the hell said that? That's pretty f***ed up lol

I compared him to Gretzky last year, so I am hoping he is referencing that so his argument is even more idiotic.

I compared him to Gretzky because there was a thread complaining about Marner not being in the gym enough so I posted a pic of Gretzky and pointed out that the greatest hockey player ever was not some physical specimen.

 

[bax]

I’m curious to know as well

The only person that I have ever heard say anything remotely like that was Cassidy during the playoffs and it was clearly done in the media to create drama.

I compared him to Gretzky last year, so I am hoping he is referencing that so his argument is even more idiotic.

I compared him to Gretzky because there was a thread complaining about Marner not being in the gym enough so I posted a pic of Gretzky and pointed out that the greatest hockey player ever was not some physical specimen.

Well that at least makes sense with a bit of context to it.

 

[ACC1224]

who the hell said that? That's pretty f***ed up lol

Never happened. Just add it to the list of made up things.

 

[Antropovsky]

I compared him to Gretzky last year, so I am hoping he is referencing that so his argument is even more idiotic.

I compared him to Gretzky because there was a thread complaining about Marner not being in the gym enough so I posted a pic of Gretzky and pointed out that the greatest hockey player ever was not some physical specimen.

No.. certain posters were comparing his vision, smarts to Gretzky. Which is pretty ridiculous considering Marner is 40 points from league leaders in points.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The players want international hockey. Yes it was a big contention point in CBA negotiations. NHL countered with four nations to appease the players but then the IIHF jumped in and offered to cover some of the cost for the Olympics, so everyone ended up winning.

I’m not going to spend all day looking for sources, I’m working. I don’t work from home. You can listen to Marty Walsh, you can listen to multiple agents who have spoken about this. You can listen to the many players who have spoken about this. I listen to multiple hockey podcasts a day/week, this topic has been broached 1000x times in just about every podcast for the last two years. You can pick anyone and find an episode on those topics. I just provided you proof of players who want to be at the 4 nations. Through the CBC article where many stars spoke to wanting to participate. Also there was a quote by David Pastrnak who was extremely pissed after Czech won the world championships where he stated he finds it disrespectful that Czech was not invited to participate in a bigger World Cup event. And felt Czech should be apart.

Marty Walsh himself has been very vocal about the players wanting international hockey back. It was the first piece of business he took care of once he was voted in as head of NHLPA. That should tell you the level of importance international hockey has for the players.

I have no idea who you’re referencing about they don’t want to go/be picked. I’ve never seen that reported or even talked about. All the stars want to be there and that’s what matters at the end of the day.

So we're back to where we started. You state this as if it's a fact, but you can't provide a source. As far as I know, the Olympics was what the players wanted, this was widely reported and IIRC, Bettman even said that they were going to the Olympics again because that's what the players wanted. I even did a search for this, I found all kinds of sources for the Olympics being part of CBA negotiations but nothing on this Nations Cup being an issue for the players.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that I'm having a hard time believing this so if you can't provide a source, I remain skeptical.

 

[bax]

No.. certain posters were comparing his vision, smarts to Gretzky. Which is pretty ridiculous considering Marner is 40 points from league leaders in points.

That's just ridiculous if true lol

 

[Racer88]

I don’t hate Marner. I don’t really hate anyone. I don’t like him on the team at the price point and certainly not for any higher.
I totally dislike his sense of entitlement and nothing is ever his fault and how dare we ever think it is. This is on display every time he steps up to the mic, but hate him nope
I do find it comical the lengths some will go to try and make out like he is this awesome player that we could never do without

 

[GoonieFace]

I’m curious to know as well

I believe he was compared to Brent Gretzky, who is far superior…

 

[bax]

I don’t hate Marner. I don’t really hate anyone. I don’t like him on the team at the price point and certainly not for any higher.
I totally dislike his sense of entitlement and nothing is ever his fault and how dare we ever think it is. This is on display every time he steps up to the mic, but hate him nope
I do find it comical the lengths some will go to try and make out like he is this awesome player that we could never do without

I can understand this sentiment. I like players with a chip on their shoulders but he should really stop doing interviews, he's really bad at it. It does seem like he's been a bit better at them this year in the limited amount I've watched. He is definitely paid too much.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I can understand this sentiment. I like players with a chip on their shoulders but he should really stop doing interviews, he's really bad at it. It does seem like he's been a bit better at them this year in the limited amount I've watched. He is definitely paid too much.

I rarely watch interviews and I haven't heard a single word Marner's said this season. I saw him a couple of weeks ago on the news when the volume wasn't on though, and I remember thinking that he looks much less uncomfortable that he has in the past so that lines up with your impressions. Or maybe, Marner's interviews are always better with no sound?

Definitely paid too much. I like what Dubas did here probably more than most people do but that contract is #1 on the list of his mistakes and what a doozy it was.