Player Discussion Marner

[Legion34]

View attachment 917134

Marner got Selke votes, and Matthews got nothing.

Marner got All-Star team votes, and Matthews got nothing.

Marner's PPG is higher by the way.

Sure, they have never been on the same level...

You are looking at a guy who was
On pace for top 5 in goals. Goal
Scoring C are worth more than play making wingers.

Auston Matthews has always been the better player

 

[notbias]

You are looking at a guy who was
On pace for top 5 in goals. Goal
Scoring C are worth more than play making wingers.

Auston Matthews has always been the better player

They were around the same level, I don't care if people want to remember their ELCs differently, they were the same level.

Now, they aren't, no argument there.

 

[Legion34]

Watch exemple pittsburgh when they sign crosby at 8,7M...No body can asking more to their gm than crosby money

Crosby signed at 13,48 % of salary cap...

If you sign tavares at 11M and after you need to sign your best player... oups you already gave close of 14% of salary cap for a guy who was 2 or 3rd best player st this moment.

So Nylander watched all the money spent on jt, he tried to compare himself to him and try to bring back the most hr can.

So unstead to sign exemple matthews at 13,48% of salary cap ( woulb be arround 10,8M, because of JT contract for sure matthews will want more so he sign higher nd elevate at his turn salary cap standard

So Marner watch this, hum im the 3rd best player but not that far of jt and Mm so i will sign at 10, 9 unstead of 9-10...

So at the end probably every key player sign 1 M over than what they should because Dubas etablish his standard with jt contract. Its how its working in the NHL.

The Crosby thing is disingenuous. He was coming off two massive injuries and rook
104 million dollars on a cheater
Deal. He signed for 17% cap odd his ELC.

 

[thusk]

The Crosby thing is disingenuous. He was coming off two massive injuries and rook
104 million dollars on a cheater
Deal. He signed for 17% cap odd his ELC.

That's change nothing, you can take the club you want...

Your best player normally is the guy who will set up cap structure of the team...

 

[Legion34]

That's change nothing, you can take the club you want...

Your best player normally is the guy who will set up cap structure of the team...

It absolutely changes things. Crosby took a contract that was illegal when Tavares came up. They aren’t comparable.

 

[arso40]

I agree with the overall sentiment of this post. The only part I’d push back on is the idea Marner was a more complete player earlier in their careers.

I think one excels at goalscoring heavily, one excels at playmaking heavily. Matthews however has been the better two way player at every step imo even if it wasn’t really recognized earlier on by many.

Still a better overall player though so you can’t agree with them that’s contradictory

 

[Legion34]

They were around the same level, I don't care if people want to remember their ELCs differently, they were the same level.

Now, they aren't, no argument there.

They weren’t though. Matthews was better.
He was a goal scoring C who scored the second most goals per game and 6 most ELC goals in the last 30 years.

 

[arso40]

You are looking at a guy who was
On pace for top 5 in goals. Goal
Scoring C are worth more than play making wingers.

Auston Matthews has always been the better player

What are these guys smoking

 

[notDatsyuk]

the day you're etablish your own standard at 11M in your team for those in your system, you created your own standsrd at this salary... and costimg you your negociation weapon

If he didn't understand that giving a UFA $11M does not mean you have to give an RFA $11M, then he's even more incompetent than previously thought.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Marner and Matthews were on the same level at one point... Matthews has separated himself from Marner and almost everyone in the league.

I agree - they were on the same level until about 7:35PM on October 12, 2016.

 

[notbias]

They weren’t though. Matthews was better.
He was a goal scoring C who scored the second most goals per game and 6 most ELC goals in the last 30 years.

How much extra are goals worth? I just want to know how much better Matthews is than McDavid.

 

[arso40]

How much extra are goals worth? I just want to know how much better Matthews is than McDavid.

He’s not cause mcdavid can score 70 if he puts his mind to it I’m sure

 

[francis246]

They weren’t though. Matthews was better.
He was a goal scoring C who scored the second most goals per game and 6 most ELC goals in the last 30 years.

This is a strawman argument;

You’re misrepresenting Marner’s contributions by focusing solely on goal scoring and completely ignoring the broader context of assists/playmaking and overall point totals. By doing so, it simplifies the debate to just goals, which doesn’t fully address the value Marner brings as a player or even what Matthews brings as a complete player.

 

[Gabriel426]

They were around the same level, I don't care if people want to remember their ELCs differently, they were the same level.

Now, they aren't, no argument there.

MM was never in the same level as AM.

Everyone in the hockey World knows AM's contact after ELC will be between Eichel and McD, just didn't expect it to be 5 years instead of 8years like the other two.

Despite MM getting more points than AM during their ELC, MM was never consider at the same level as AM, bc if he was, he won't be signing for 10.893 and will either be the same or just a bit lower than AM.

Your MM obsession have gone to next level, I am actually worry about you if MM leaves the Leafs in a few months when he can sign a much better deal than the Leafs can offer.

 

[Gabriel426]

This is a strawman argument;

You’re misrepresenting Marner’s contributions by focusing solely on goal scoring and completely ignoring the broader context of assists/playmaking and overall point totals. By doing so, it simplifies the debate to just goals, which doesn’t fully address the value Marner brings as a player or even what Matthews brings as a complete player.

Yes, but is there an award for having the most assists in the game?
Had anyone ever coin the phrase 50 assists player?
Can you get an assist without your team scoring a goal?
Can you score a goal without someone giving you an assist?

I don't think it is fair to solely focus on goals and let that be the ultimate argument of how good or how big the impact a player has on the team but goal is pretty important.

When looking at AM's scoring and MM's playmaking, not going to go into their defense, it is fair to ask the question, would AM still scored those goals if the guy who passed him the puck is Kampf or Engvall or anyone but MM? Then ask the question, would other players scored in same position as AM after MM made the pass to him?

Most importantly, are they WINNERS? What have they won as the dynamic duo for the Leafs? ONE series WIN in 8 playoffs.

 

[Confucius]

If he didn't understand that giving a UFA $11M does not mean you have to give an RFA $11M, then he's even more incompetent than previously thought.

Not only that but you get a UFA at no cost other than his salary. A homegrown player costs you a draft pick as well. How much would a team pay for a 1st overall pick or a top 10 player in the league? Would a team not pay, McDavid, Bedard, Mathews a million or 2 a year more if they just got them for nothing and still kept their 1st round pick. JT’s overall cost was 11 million, Marner’s cost was 11 million plus a 4th overall pick.

 

[Racer88]

Setting player contract values by basing it against other players on the same team is crazy. You base it on comparable players league wide because if you were to replace your player that is the pool you would try and replace him from

 

[Dekes For Days]

You haven’t shown a production gap. You made one up. Production is actual results.

The production gap I showed is actual results. It happened. That's how they performed. You're just trying to dismiss more accurate information, despite you doing the exact same thing with other opportunity discrepancies. If we're just going by raw points and nothing else, then I guess Marner is worth more than everybody who didn't have 224 points when they signed, right? Opportunity is irrelevant! McDavid was just a 40-50 point player in his first year, right? And he only had 46 goals when he signed! What a bum! And if goals are the end-all, be-all, I guess Matthews should have gotten more than everybody, eh? Ignoring critical information can be fun after all!

You are the one claiming that the history of post ELC contracts shows that marners primary point production despite having almost identical points dictates an 18% salary descrepancy.

No, that's not what anybody said. You're mixing multiple different discussions together, to completely miss the point.

 

[francis246]

Yes, but is there an award for having the most assists in the game?
Had anyone ever coin the phrase 50 assists player?
Can you get an assist without your team scoring a goal?
Can you score a goal without someone giving you an assist?

I don't think it is fair to solely focus on goals and let that be the ultimate argument of how good or how big the impact a player has on the team but goal is pretty important.

When looking at AM's scoring and MM's playmaking, not going to go into their defense, it is fair to ask the question, would AM still scored those goals if the guy who passed him the puck is Kampf or Engvall or anyone but MM? Then ask the question, would other players scored in same position as AM after MM made the pass to him?

Most importantly, are they WINNERS? What have they won as the dynamic duo for the Leafs? ONE series WIN in 8 playoffs.

Another bad argument. Matthews is not scoring 70 goals playing a full 82 season with Pierre Engvall or David Kampf. You’re being facetious and you know it. There is a reason Matthews got pissed off spending three years playing along side a guy like Hyman and not having a guy who can get him the puck like Willy or Marner. Thats why Babcock went to Arizona to smooth things over. Although Hyman has grown into a great player at the time he couldn’t make elite plays for Matthews consistently.

We all know the difference between a Marner or even a Domi and an Engvall/Kampf. It’s the rate at which they can make those plays and the quality of those plays. Saying Matthews can do it with anyone is a weak argument and we all know it’s not true. You can say one player is more valuable without trying to diminish the talent of another. Even Knies who is better than both Engvall and Kampf couldn’t even put up more than 40 points playing a majority of a season with Matthews. It’s not as simple as you keep trying to imply.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Marner had 13 less goals

Now do playoff goals

 

[HamiltonNHL]

How much extra are goals worth? I just want to know how much better Matthews is than McDavid.

Stanley Cup final vs First Round

 

[Gary Nylund]

View attachment 917134

Marner got Selke votes, and Matthews got nothing.

Marner got All-Star team votes, and Matthews got nothing.

Marner's PPG is higher by the way.

Sure, they have never been on the same level...

Like I said, IMO you're in the small minority here. Start a poll if you don't believe me.

Also, these numbers don't mean anything, you use stats the same way a drunken man uses lampposts.

Watch exemple pittsburgh when they sign crosby at 8,7M...No body can asking more to their gm than crosby money

Crosby signed at 13,48 % of salary cap...

If you sign tavares at 11M and after you need to sign your best player... oups you already gave close of 14% of salary cap for a guy who was 2 or 3rd best player st this moment.

So Nylander watched all the money spent on jt, he tried to compare himself to him and try to bring back the most hr can.

So unstead to sign exemple matthews at 13,48% of salary cap ( woulb be arround 10,8M, because of JT contract for sure matthews will want more so he sign higher nd elevate at his turn salary cap standard

So Marner watch this, hum im the 3rd best player but not that far of jt and Mm so i will sign at 10, 9 unstead of 9-10...

So at the end probably every key player sign 1 M over than what they should because Dubas etablish his standard with jt contract. Its how its working in the NHL.

This is a lot of noise that has nothing to do with the fact that are wrong about the Leafs having no leverage. As long as you don't understand the fundamental differences between negotiating with RFA's and UFA's, you will keep going down the wrong path. And JT wasn't just any UFA, because of how rarely players of that ilk come on the market, the demand for him was off the charts. Paying Marner as if those two were peers was pure insanity.

It also seems like almost every other word of your post is misspelt, not to mention the grammatical errors. Were you high when you posted this?

Setting player contract values by basing it against other players on the same team is crazy. You base it on comparable players league wide because if you were to replace your player that is the pool you would try and replace him from

Yup. Almost as crazy as comparing UFA's to RFA's.

We all know the difference between a Marner or even a Domi and an Engvall/Kampf. It’s the rate at which they can make those plays and the quality of those plays. Saying Matthews can do it with anyone is a weak argument and we all know it’s not true. You can say one player is more valuable without trying to diminish the talent of another. Even Knies who is better than both Engvall and Kampf couldn’t even put up more than 40 points playing a majority of a season with Matthews. It’s not as simple as you keep trying to imply.

I would agree with all this. However ... the fact that Matthews produced better with Domi than with Marner last season over a sample size that wasn't exactly small suggests that Marner isn't exactly integral to his linemates production. Sure guys like JT and Matthews benefit from playing with Marner, but Marner has obviously benefitted from playing with them as well and considering the Domi experiment last season, it looks like Marner perhaps benefits more than anyone else.

 

[Legion34]

The production gap I showed is actual results. It happened. That's how they performed. You're just trying to dismiss more accurate information, despite you doing the exact same thing with other opportunity discrepancies. If we're just going by raw points and nothing else, then I guess Marner is worth more than everybody who didn't have 224 points when they signed, right? Opportunity is irrelevant! McDavid was just a 40-50 point player in his first year, right? And he only had 46 goals when he signed! What a bum! And if goals are the end-all, be-all, I guess Matthews should have gotten more than everybody, eh? Ignoring critical information can be fun after all!

No, that's not what anybody said. You're mixing multiple different discussions together, to completely miss the point.

The production gap I showed is actual results. It happened. That's how they performed. You're just trying to dismiss more accurate information, despite you doing the exact same thing with other opportunity discrepancies. If we're just going by raw points and nothing else, then I guess Marner is worth more than everybody who didn't have 224 points when they signed, right? Opportunity is irrelevant! McDavid was just a 40-50 point player in his first year, right? And he only had 46 goals when he signed! What a bum! And if goals are the end-all, be-all, I guess Matthews should have gotten more than everybody, eh? Ignoring critical information can be fun after all!

No, that's not what anybody said. You're mixing multiple different discussions together, to completely miss the point.

You are saying that two players of the same draft/handedness and position who signed in the same year who have almost identical production in their elcs

Player A. Games 241. Goals 67. Pts 224
Pro rated 82 games. 23 goals and 75 pts

Player V. Games. 230. Goals.80 pts 209
Pro rated 82 games goals 29. Pts 74

There is an 18% per year and 10.2 million dollar gap in contracts.

You are basing this on “history”.

Show the history.
Show 2 players who scored similarly who had such a massive discrepancy in their contracts and what that was based on

Marner scored “28% more impacts” etc I every situation but somehow scored 13 less goals in 15 more games.
It’s just silly. We actually agree overall with most things. But there is no basis for this one.

If there is based on your “research” you would show it.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Marner makes a lotta money for his AHL shooting and scoring.

His game isn’t for post season success.

We want a cup team not regular season darlings

 

[Dekes For Days]

who have almost identical production in their elcs

They didn't produce identically through their ELCs. You're still having trouble with that part.

Marner produced 7% better in overall production (10% no EN).
Marner produced 11% better in overall primary production (15% no EN).
Marner produced 28% better at 5v5.
Marner produced 46% better at 5v5 primary production.
Marner produced 24% better on the PP.
Marner produced 13% better on the PP in primary production.
Marner also brought PK impacts, while Rantanen didn't.

Why don't you show examples of players that did that much better in every game state and still got paid the same?