Player Discussion Marner

[Arzak]

Okay. Didn't realize that they were sharing. Yeah that's fine, I thought Rielly got stripped of it.

If he takes anything around 12 on a contract extension, he will earn back a lot of public good will. Hope that happens.

I'll have what you are smoking

How is a top 30 player (at best) on $12M salary earning back a lot of public good will?

Asking for a friend.

He is not getting 12 on an open market, only the Leafs/Kyle are stupid enough to pay him $11M.

That's before you consider his pathetic playoff performance.

 

[Racer88]

Okay. Didn't realize that they were sharing. Yeah that's fine, I thought Rielly got stripped of it.

If he takes anything around 12 on a contract extension, he will earn back a lot of public good will. Hope that happens.

Whaaaat. If he takes a small pay cut I doubt that would gain any fan good will

 

[thusk]

Hate to break you the news:

26, 27 year old Matthews 5v5 with Marner last two seasons:
2023: 539 mins, 1.33 g/60
2024: 720 mins, 1.55 g/60

27 year old Matthews with Domi:
2024: 206 mins, 3.19 g/60

22 year old Matthews 5v5 with 40 year old Marleau
2018-2019: 432mins, 1.8 g/60

22 year old Matthews 5v5 with Kasperi Kapanen
2018-2019: 591 mins, 1.52 g/60

22 year old Matthews g/60 5v5 was better with Kapanen and 40 year old Marleau than it has been with Marner the past 2 seasons.

Its actually possible an argument could be made that Matthews is actually a better goal scorer without Marner.

Matthews with Domi was producing at pretty high rate, im totally agree but they was also totally trash defensively together. Matthews allowed pretty close of 2x more goal alongside Domi than anyone else... With Domi its like 3,98 goal/60 against, without its like 2,25

But i'm agree statistically that doesn't go as high than it was in the past but at the same time that coincides at the moment Keefe start to use even more Matthews/Marner against exemple kucherov line, mcdavid line, Mckinnon line... It is a result of their play together or just result of challenge becoming stronger when they are together? I don't have the answer but yeah im agree than their stats offensively was not as good last 2 together

 

[Suntouchable13]

Leafs are stupid if they re-sign him before the playoffs are over. 12+ for a soft playmaking winger that won you zip is insanity.

 

[Antropovsky]

Matthews with Domi was producing at pretty high rate, im totally agree but they was also totally trash defensively together. Matthews allowed pretty close of 2x more goal alongside Domi than anyone else... With Domi its like 3,98 goal/60 against, without its like 2,25

But i'm agree statistically that doesn't go as high than it was in the past but at the same time that coincides at the moment Keefe start to use even more Matthews/Marner against exemple kucherov line, mcdavid line, Mckinnon line... It is a result of their play together or just result of challenge becoming stronger when they are together? I don't have the answer but yeah im agree than their stats offensively was not as good last 2 together

Matthews line w/Domi:
Gf/60: 6:67
Ga/60: 3.77
Difference: +2.90

Matthews line w/Marner:
Gf/60: 3.58
Ga/60: 2.33
Difference: +1.25

If you had a choice of line A, + an additional 8 million to spend vs line B without the extra money, which would you take?

If Marner is an 11 million dollar playmaker/defensive player, shouldnt we see a significant improvement of Matthews with Marner vs others? Especially with 3 Million journeyman Domi?

You wont find a goal scorer with Thornton who didnt improve by quite a bit with Thornton vs without. Also Thornton turned lesser players into much more productive goal scorers. Marner isnt and there is no real track record of him ever doing it.

While as ive shown, Matthews is generally scoring the same with or more with numerous players other than Marner, including Kapanen and 40 year old Marleau.

 

[Nineteen67]

Is Mitchy watching the crowd in Utah?

SLC is pretty nice place.

 

[Roo]

Matthews line w/Domi:
Gf/60: 6:67
Ga/60: 3.77
Difference: +2.90

Matthews line w/Marner:
Gf/60: 3.58
Ga/60: 2.33
Difference: +1.25

If you had a choice of line A, + an additional 8 million to spend vs line B without the extra money, which would you take?

If Marner is an 11 million dollar playmaker/defensive player, shouldnt we see a significant improvement of Matthews with Marner vs others? Especially with 3 Million journeyman Domi?

You wont find a goal scorer with Thornton who didnt improve by quite a bit with Thornton vs without. Also Thornton turned lesser players into much more productive goal scorers. Marner isnt and there is no real track record of him ever doing it.

While as ive shown, Matthews is generally scoring the same with or more with numerous players other than Marner, including Kapanen and 40 year old Marleau.

Very interesting... what is the sample size for games with Matthews-Domi and Matthews-Marner?

And didn't Tavares hit his career high in goals his first season with us, playing with Marner?

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Tre shopping him huge.

 

[Antropovsky]

Very interesting... what is the sample size for games with Matthews-Domi and Matthews-Marner?

And didn't Tavares hit his career high in goals his first season with us, playing with Marner?

206 mins with Domi

720 mins with Marner

But as I said, the most gf/60 Matthews has hit with Marner was 1.94. Which is only marginally better than what Matthews hit at 22 years old (1.8) with 40 year old Marleau as his winger.

In his Rookie season, Matthews has 1.72 g/60 in nearly 1000 mins with Hyman

..in hindisight Marner hasnt helped him score more at all. An argument can be made that Marner actually hinders Matthews goal scoring. Especially looking at the last 2 seasons.

 

[Racer88]

Tre shopping him huge.

View attachment 913621

Ya but he hasn’t seen him in the playoffs or whining on the bench yet

 

[Roo]

206 mins with Domi

720 mins with Marner

But as I said, the most gf/60 Matthews has hit with Marner was 1.94. Which is only marginally better than what Matthews hit at 22 years old (1.8) with 40 year old Marleau as his winger.

In his Rookie season, Matthews has 1.72 g/60 in nearly 1000 mins with Hyman

..in hindisight Marner hasnt helped him score more at all. An argument can be made that Marner actually hinders Matthews goal scoring. Especially looking at the last 2 seasons.

Where do you find these numbers? Just curious, I have no idea.

Back to the topic though, I think taking numbers from last season when Matthews was trying to hit 70 is a bit misleading. 206 minutes with Domi is effectively 10 games or so, and we know he is a streaky scorer. In his rookie year, it's interesting you mention him playing with Hyman when his other winger was Nylander. But I certainly buy the argument that Matthews can be just as effective with other playmakers. Maybe even more effective. To me though, that isn't a slight on Marner, that is just how good Matthews is.

Going back to those first couple of years when Matthews was playing with Hyman and Nylander.... Who was Marner playing with? I mentioned Tavares' biggest year in my prior post. I believe he did the exact same thing with Kadri, his top two goal-scoring campaigns came with Marner, prior to Tavares arriving in Toronto.

We've seen it both ways with Babcock and Keefe, I am 100% in the camp of splitting up Matthews and Marner. But that is because Marner has clearly elevated the play of others. I just don't think Matthews needs that support, where others do.

 

[Evilhomer]

Only question is whether the Leafs give him $12 or $12.5, so it will probably be $12.25. I'll guess that they give him the full 8 years.

 

[leafs in five]

Hate to break you the news:

 

[57 Years No Cup]

I'll have what you are smoking

How is a top 30 player (at best) on $12M salary earning back a lot of public good will?

Asking for a friend.

He is not getting 12 on an open market, only the Leafs/Kyle are stupid enough to pay him $11M.

That's before you consider his pathetic playoff performance.

THIS^.

 

[Antropovsky]

Where do you find these numbers? Just curious, I have no idea.

Back to the topic though, I think taking numbers from last season when Matthews was trying to hit 70 is a bit misleading. 206 minutes with Domi is effectively 10 games or so, and we know he is a streaky scorer. In his rookie year, it's interesting you mention him playing with Hyman when his other winger was Nylander. But I certainly buy the argument that Matthews can be just as effective with other playmakers. Maybe even more effective. To me though, that isn't a slight on Marner, that is just how good Matthews is.

Going back to those first couple of years when Matthews was playing with Hyman and Nylander.... Who was Marner playing with? I mentioned Tavares' biggest year in my prior post. I believe he did the exact same thing with Kadri, his top two goal-scoring campaigns came with Marner, prior to Tavares arriving in Toronto.

We've seen it both ways with Babcock and Keefe, I am 100% in the camp of splitting up Matthews and Marner. But that is because Marner has clearly elevated the play of others. I just don't think Matthews needs that support, where others do.

i use this website: https://www.naturalstattrick.com/pl...sit=5v5&stdoi=std&rate=y&v=t&playerid=8479318

In Matthews rookie year, Hyman played the most mins with Matthews.

Taking Matthews off Marners line is what allowed Matthews to hit 70. They couldnt score together and Keefe specifically called out Marner (not Matthews) in the season for not playing good. Additionally, Marner also admitted that as Matthews linemates, they need to utilize space better because teams are double teaming Matthews. Obviously, Matthews being teamed up on was something the coaches knew.

2016
Hyman: 972 mins 1.72 g/60
Nylander: 624 mins 1.34 g/60
C.Brown: 411 mins 2.19 g/60

In 2023:
Bunting: 735mins 1.55 g/60
Marner: 539 mins 1.33 g/60
Nylander: 504 mins 1.54 g/60

2024
Marner: 720 mins 1.58 g/60
Knies 563 mins 1.6 g/60
Bertuzzi: 322 mins 2.42 g/60

 

[tuckerintensity]

206 mins with Domi

720 mins with Marner

But as I said, the most gf/60 Matthews has hit with Marner was 1.94. Which is only marginally better than what Matthews hit at 22 years old (1.8) with 40 year old Marleau as his winger.

In his Rookie season, Matthews has 1.72 g/60 in nearly 1000 mins with Hyman

..in hindisight Marner hasnt helped him score more at all. An argument can be made that Marner actually hinders Matthews goal scoring. Especially looking at the last 2 seasons.

He played roughly 60% of his time last year with Mitch, 13% with Max, and 1% with both... and scored 69 damn goals. But ya, Maxy boy is the wonder who gets him all his chances.

Look, I'm here for the we should split those two up more (AM/MM), if not the majority of their ES time, just don't be completely ridiculous about the whole thing out of emotion. AM/MD isn't the long term solution either, that run and gun that produces more chances for also creates far more chances against and that bullkaka doesn't help us at all when the games matter. Like I said, just don't be completely ridiculous about the whole thing out of emotion.