Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion

[Legion34]

Not about future revenues though.

The cap is a percentage of hockey related revenues. Being an expert at the cap doesn't make you good at predicting future NHL revenues. You are mixing two totally different things up. It's comical that you quoted that line thinking it proves your point, when it just illustrates you don't understand the topic at hand.

Being an expert at the cap would be understanding how LTIR works before the media does. I did this, but admittedly I'm sure there are some other loopholes in the cap that I am not aware of. A cap expert would be the go to for those kinds of things. I would never claim to know more about every small detail about the cap than someone who contributed to the creation of the cap rules.

All you need to get this right is be able to predict what will happen with HRR in the next five years. I've laid out where I think it will go. You think it's wild speculation when in reality is based on solid information and logical projections.

But hey, more people know your handle now that you've engaged me in a conversation, so I guess mission accomplished.

Don’t you have like 43 followers?

 

[The CyNick]

Two things:

One, your statement that nobody on our team takes a discount is demonstrably false: JT passed up a $13 mil/season in San Jose to sign for $11 mil/season here. You could also argue that Kadri and Rielly could have held out for a lot more than they got.

Two, your prediction of Marner getting $11.6 is based solely on a comparison with Matthews. If we were to be more realistic, and invoke other salaries across the league, Marner's contract value would dip well-below that figure.

I'm willing to make a wager with you that Mitch's deal will be for around $10 mil* and won't touch Matthew's numbers.

* Unless it's an unlikely offer-sheet.

But this is a GM who is a terrible negotiator. Matthews shouldn't have got the Matthews contact.

 

[The CyNick]

I'm willing to wager a dollar you weren't even capable of typing this out with a straight face.

Pure nonsense

What specifically?

 

[The CyNick]

Don’t you have like 43 followers?

I didn't even know followers was a thing on here. News to me. Good to know though.

 

[Legion34]

I didn't even know followers was a thing on here. News to me. Good to know though.

I was just curious as to how ones name would become known By conversing with you. I was wondering if it was known by 43 twitter followers. Or something. Else?

 

[Leafs87]

The thing with paying Marner big money and securing a worse team than last year is that the team last year was already a first round exist because of the depth. The top end talent didn’t push us over anything...... I don’t know how Matthews got the contract he got or how Marner will get his 10+ mill it just doesn’t make sense unless it’s long term.

 

[Ruggle]

He's gunna get overpaid just like Matthews and Nylander did

 

[moon111]

By this is a GM who is a terrible negotiator. Matthews shouldn't have got the Matthews contact.

But you have to make it at least appear it's a fair deal when you trade him for McDavid.

 

[hotpaws]

i'm wondering when the "we vs me" media campaign that the Dube dreamed up and worked so well in getting Willie to take a discount is going to start up

 

[ULF_55]

i'm wondering when the "we vs me" media campaign that the Dube dreamed up and worked so well in getting Willie to take a discount is going to start up

Never?

Marner is just the latest in the list of me-first players to come up for contract renewal.

Maybe next year he'll show up in the playoffs.

 

[Notsince67]

Never?

Marner is just the latest in the list of me-first players to come up for contract renewal.

Maybe next year he'll show up in the playoffs.

yup. Clearly winning 2 out of the 3 games for the team couldn't carry them very far

 

[Stephen]

As much as we all love Marner's production from this past season, the fact that he's a hometown product and everything, you do wonder what kind of game he's going to be playing at 25 years old and whether that translates in a four round playoff war when contemplating making him the highest paid winger in the game. Intuitively just doesn't feel like it's worth it.

 

[Stephen]

yup. Clearly winning 2 out of the 3 games for the team couldn't carry them very far

You don't get paid Patrick Kane plus money when your claim to fame is being a factor in 2 playoff games.

Letting Marner go to a hypothetical offer sheet basically saves us money for a massive contract to give someone else, and arms the team with an entire rebuild's worth of picks.

Or in another scenario, if he gets dealt for a Zach Werenski type return and he blossoms into an uber franchise defenseman, Werenski isn't even going to come close to making the kind of money Marner is after, but will log bigger minutes and impact an area of the roster that could use the upgrade.

I hope Marner sees the whole picture here and doesn't over complicate himself into chasing the dollar to a market he'd rather not move to.

 

[Notsince67]

You don't get paid Patrick Kane plus money when your claim to fame is being a factor in 2 playoff games.

Letting Marner go to a hypothetical offer sheet basically saves us money for a massive contract to give someone else, and arms the team with an entire rebuild's worth of picks.

Or in another scenario, if he gets dealt for a Zach Werenski type return and he blossoms into an uber franchise defenseman, Werenski isn't even going to come close to making the kind of money Marner is after, but will log bigger minutes and impact an area of the roster that could use the upgrade.

I hope Marner sees the whole picture here and doesn't over complicate himself into chasing the dollar to a market he'd rather not move to.

1. You get paid Kane money for having good comparables against him...he does.
2. Where were the other elite players as far as winning games during the playoffs?
3.You don't move the best player on the team to pay lesser players. That is just stupid.
4. Comparing the value of Marner to Werenski is really dumb. He gets paid less because he isn't anywhere near as good.

If you want bang for the buck you take a guy with a salary cap of 7MM with a career high of 61 points with zero game winning goals all season and you move him. Why? because when a guy who scores 94 points, plays the power play and is showing improvement rather than regression makes as much cap/points, you have a salary of 10.79MM just on points alone on a linear $$/point scale. That is a complete bargain considering you pay elite players more per point than just good ones.
If you want to keep Nylander over Marner, you are either cognitively slow or you are not a leaf fan.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

1. You get paid Kane money for having good comparables against him...he does.
2. Where were the other elite players as far as winning games during the playoffs?
3.You don't move the best player on the team to pay lesser players. That is just stupid.
4. Comparing the value of Marner to Werenski is really dumb. He gets paid less because he isn't anywhere near as good.

If you want bang for the buck you take a guy with a salary cap of 7MM with a career high of 61 points with zero game winning goals all season and you move him. Why? because when a guy who scores 94 points, plays the power play and is showing improvement rather than regression makes as much cap/points, you have a salary of 10.79MM just on points alone on a linear $$/point scale. That is a complete bargain considering you pay elite players more per point than just good ones.
If you want to keep Nylander over Marner, you are either cognitively slow or you are not a leaf fan.

Why do people always make it Marner vs Nylander?? Makes no sense to me. Keep them both. It's literally no issue and makes zero sense to keep hating on Nylander.

 

[kb]

You don't get paid Patrick Kane plus money when your claim to fame is being a factor in 2 playoff games.

Letting Marner go to a hypothetical offer sheet basically saves us money for a massive contract to give someone else, and arms the team with an entire rebuild's worth of picks.

Or in another scenario, if he gets dealt for a Zach Werenski type return and he blossoms into an uber franchise defenseman, Werenski isn't even going to come close to making the kind of money Marner is after, but will log bigger minutes and impact an area of the roster that could use the upgrade.

I hope Marner sees the whole picture here and doesn't over complicate himself into chasing the dollar to a market he'd rather not move to.

Yessir. Bravo.

A 20 goal winger is not worth $11 million.

 

[Notsince67]

Why do people always make it Marner vs Nylander?? Makes no sense to me. Keep them both. It's literally no issue and makes zero sense to keep hating on Nylander.

I didnt bring up moving players for assets. I merely pointed out a far more obvious choice than moving Marner. The direct comparisons make the choice far more obvious.

 

[Kiwi]

1. You get paid Kane money for having good comparables against him...he does.
2. Where were the other elite players as far as winning games during the playoffs?
3.You don't move the best player on the team to pay lesser players. That is just stupid.
4. Comparing the value of Marner to Werenski is really dumb. He gets paid less because he isn't anywhere near as good.

If you want bang for the buck you take a guy with a salary cap of 7MM with a career high of 61 points with zero game winning goals all season and you move him. Why? because when a guy who scores 94 points, plays the power play and is showing improvement rather than regression makes as much cap/points, you have a salary of 10.79MM just on points alone on a linear $$/point scale. That is a complete bargain considering you pay elite players more per point than just good ones.
If you want to keep Nylander over Marner, you are either cognitively slow or you are not a leaf fan.

Kates actually won stuff, he'd also won and been a driver that instigated his team winning playoff rounds at this point of his career, so we're comparing Marner to that? Good luck

Matthews was our best goal scorer in the playoffs by plenty so yeah there's that bit covered

Only a true homer would say Marner is our best player, he's not and it's not even close, it's ridiculous you'd even write that

Werenski is a top pair point scoring play driving defenseman, so saying he isn't anywhere near as good as Marner also makes you look like a gigantic Marner homer, that's the type of player you trade Marner for if he's a complete prick this off-season

How the **** did Nylander get pulled into this? You'd have to be mentally stunted to think trading one overpaid spoiled child at his lowest possible value so you can vastly overpay another spoiled child is an actual intelligent strategy

Save me from hypocritical fan boys

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Kates actually won stuff, he'd also won and been a driver that instigated his team winning playoff rounds at this point of his career, so we're comparing Marner to that? Good luck

Players don’t get paid based on team success though. Kane’s post-ELC contract is likely a floor for Marner. And rightfully so.

 

[Ciccio1980]

Kane's post elc contract was about 10% of the cap 9m for 5years is about right for marner

 

[gabeliscious]

The league has switched from paying for results to paying for potential. One can argue a 90 point season is results but imo it is only partial results. Personal achievement does not trump team achievement.

The issue here is that dubas painted himself into a corner. Once he gave nylander that contract i think matthews agent knew he could bend dubas over. Once matthews got his contract it set a precident for marner on cap and term. Now marner can play with both term and cap to make things difficult for us.

Despite the cap situation i dont see how we can possibly trade marner. Next year will be tough but once marleaus contract expries things will get slightly easier.

 

[DarkKnight]

I thought this was an interesting observation I heard on the radio. They looked at production against the top defensive teams in the league last year and found Marner's production remained identical relative to the weaker defensive teams, whereas Matthews production dropped to half when he went up against the tighter defensive teams. That isn't a slight on Matthews, because you obviously expect players to feast on the weaker opponents, score less against the defensive team. What it does show though, just how impressive Marner really was last season.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

The league has switched from paying for results to paying for potential. One can argue a 90 point season is results but imo it is only partial results. Personal achievement does not trump team achievement.

The league has been paying for personal results for a long time. Not team results.

 

[Riellyfan04]

Whats all this talk about possibly marner getting traded. If marner gets traded, im done with the leafs and hockey... hes our best player, if u trade him thats the dumbest shit ever

 

[ACC1224]

Whats all this talk about possibly marner getting traded. If marner gets traded, im done with the leafs and hockey... hes our best player, if u trade him thats the dumbest **** ever

IMO, all things considered, he's the last guy they would trade.