Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion

[Notsince67]

Oh yes, the good ole days when Hyman was a production killer on a line, but suddenly that isn't even mentioned when he's on with a guy who just gets it done. He's the exact same player he's always been, when it was the other winger a clear negative, with Marner crickets. Place is a hoot sometimes.

Oh...did you hear that Tavares is carrying Marner even though Tavares scored 24% more goals than his career high with Marner?

 

[Buds17]

But again if everyone knows that a player is going to produce more the next season because of who they will be playing with, then after said season everyone should still take that into consideration and understand that they shouldn't be paying for the inflated production.

For as long as I have watched the NHL, players have cashed in after a good season because of a great linemate and that has pretty much always turned out to be a bad contract. Smart teams refuse to sign players to those inflated contracts, and often instead trade the player when their value is high. Dumb teams do sign those players to inflated contracts.

I remember Warren Young signing a big contract with the Wings after his 40 goal, 72 point rookie season with Pittsburgh. Can't blame Young for asking for it. But Pittsburgh was smart enough to not agree to a massive raise. The Wings did though and they were paying a 40 goal, 70 point salary to a third line player, at best, who averaged 15 goals and 33 points over the next 2 seasons and then was out of the league.

If, for instance, someone is a 100 point player with Marchand and Bergeron, but a 60 or 70 point player without then it would be dumb to pay him like he is a 100 point player.

I think management has to tread wisely with the Marner contract. That said, Warren Young had that career best season when he was in his late twenties, and he was also drafted much lower than Marner was.

Plan A looks to be running with Tavares-Marner and Matthews-Nylander duos. We've seen what both are capable of. If they can both accomplish that over full seasons, and in the same season, the Leafs are off to an impressive start.

 

[ULF_55]

Oh yes, the good ole days when Hyman was a production killer on a line, but suddenly that isn't even mentioned when he's on with a guy who just gets it done. He's the exact same player he's always been, when it was the other winger a clear negative, with Marner crickets. Place is a hoot sometimes.

I haven't really had a problem with players playing a role effectively.

Hyman can play his role on any line, and he had the same amount of points on both top lines.

Matthew, Nylander, Hyman have about 750 games between them, about the same number as Tavares.

I'm pretty sure everyone knows playing with a prime age veteran franchise centerman comes with benefits.

 

[KuleminFan41]

Oh...did you hear that Tavares is carrying Marner even though Tavares scored 24% more goals than his career high with Marner?

To be fair, Tavares saw an increase of just 4 points from 2017-2018 to 2018-2019.

 

[DarkKnight]

Oh...did you hear that Tavares is carrying Marner even though Tavares scored 24% more goals than his career high with Marner?

12 more goals, 14 more points even strength points. Not bad for a 10 pro playing with a guy who last year was apparently a PP specialist. Oh the old narratives, now he's just a bad PKer lol.

 

[Notsince67]

To be fair, Tavares saw an increase of just 4 points from 2017-2018 to 2018-2019.

To be fair, a run and gun system can produce a lot of points if defense becomes secondary
2017-2018 he was a - 12 opposed to a +19 this year facing tougher competition
Goals above replacement 8.9 vs 18.1

 

[biotk]

Oh yes, the good ole days when Hyman was a production killer on a line, but suddenly that isn't even mentioned when he's on with a guy who just gets it done. He's the exact same player he's always been, when it was the other winger a clear negative, with Marner crickets. Place is a hoot sometimes.

Hyman was a production killer during the 2016-17 season. All the statistics confirm that. He helped create a lot of chances with the way he plays, but he also killed a lot of chances because he was not very skilled. Not a single regular forward in the NHL was worse at converting chances than Hyman that season (goals scored divided by individual expected goals - and the second worst Leafs' forward was more than twice as efficient as Hyman was). By his second season his conversion rate on individual scoring chances and individual high danger chances had basically doubled, and while still not great (around bottom third among regular NHL forwards), because he helps create so many offensive chances he was easily a net positive by 2017-18 but most people didn't recognize the improvement. They should have. I predicted last summer that Matthews' line was going to suffer without Hyman. Last year and this year were essentially identical for Hyman at 5v5.

 

[DarkKnight]

Hyman was a production killer during the 2016-17 season. All the statistics confirm that. He helped create a lot of chances with the way he plays, but he also killed a lot of chances because he was not very skilled. Not a single regular forward in the NHL was worse at converting chances than Hyman that season (goals scored divided by individual expected goals - and the second worst Leafs' forward was more than twice as efficient as Hyman was). By his second season his conversion rate on individual scoring chances and individual high danger chances had basically doubled, and while still not great (around bottom third among regular NHL forwards), because he helps create so many offensive chances he was easily a net positive by 2017-18 but most people didn't recognize the improvement. They should have. I predicted last summer that Matthews' line was going to suffer without Hyman. Last year and this year were essentially identical for Hyman at 5v5.

I recognized it, it's best to be pragmatic, rather than clinging to tortured narratives to fit out dated perspectives. Hyman has been great the last two years.

 

[Notsince67]

Hyman was a production killer during the 2016-17 season. All the statistics confirm that. He helped create a lot of chances with the way he plays, but he also killed a lot of chances because he was not very skilled. Not a single regular forward in the NHL was worse at converting chances than Hyman that season (goals scored divided by individual expected goals - and the second worst Leafs' forward was more than twice as efficient as Hyman was). By his second season his conversion rate on individual scoring chances and individual high danger chances had basically doubled, and while still not great (around bottom third among regular NHL forwards), because he helps create so many offensive chances he was easily a net positive by 2017-18 but most people didn't recognize the improvement. They should have. I predicted last summer that Matthews' line was going to suffer without Hyman. Last year and this year were essentially identical for Hyman at 5v5.

Wish we had 2 of them

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Wish we had 2 of them

Need one on every line

 

[KuleminFan41]

To be fair, a run and gun system can produce a lot of points if defense becomes secondary
2017-2018 he was a - 12 opposed to a +19 this year facing tougher competition
Goals above replacement 8.9 vs 18.1

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion he had tougher competition considering he was the captain, leading scorer for most of the seasons he was there and the top line centre on the Islanders, which would mean teams focus on him more than other players. Not to mention the Islanders were a mediocre team with a -32 goal differential the year he had a -12, which mind you is hardly the best indicator of how good a player is. It's also pretty lame that you ignored the 3 previous seasons, which saw Tavares have a + in those 3 seasons, including guiding the Islanders to 2 years in the playoffs including a second round. I'm by no means saying he hasn't benefited from playing with Marner, but to suggest Marner hasn't befitted from playing with Tavares would be rather silly, . I mean, its John Tavares, he doesn't exactly need Marner to produce. He's been over PPG 3 times and missed out on PPG twice before coming to the Leafs . Let's not sell the man short

 

[Notsince67]

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion he had tougher competition considering he was the captain, leading scorer for most of the seasons he was there and the top line centre on the Islanders, which would mean teams focus on him more than other players. Not to mention the Islanders were a mediocre team with a -32 goal differential the year he had a -12, which mind you is hardly the best indicator of how good a player is. It's also pretty lame that you ignored the 3 previous seasons, which saw Tavares have a + in those 3 seasons, including guiding the Islanders to 2 years in the playoffs including a second round. I'm by no means saying he hasn't benefited from playing with Marner, but to suggest Marner hasn't befitted from playing with Tavares would be rather silly, . I mean, its John Tavares, he doesn't exactly need Marner to produce. He's been over PPG 3 times and missed out on PPG twice before coming to the Leafs . Let's not sell the man short

Look up QoC for the two years. I never said Marner didn't benefit. I was refuting the notion that he was carried which a lot of people here have insinuated or outright said. Anyone who has watched him play knows he isn't being carried.
In case people have forgotten what Marner does...

 

[Stamkos4life]

Why do you care that Andersen or Rielly aren’t in our top 4 salary of players?

This is the last time I am going to explain it for you. Hopefully this time you understand.

A poster (pretty sure it was mess) was talking about how much we have tied up in our top 4 players and that it's hard to win with that kind of setup.

Another poster said no, lots of cup winners have had a similar amount of cap tied to their top 4 players.

I came in and said that we are the only team to have all forwards in the top 4 highest paid. That's it. I didn't say it was good or bad. I didn't say we need a defenseman or goalie in the top 4.

If you dont care that we have 4 forwards, why do you keep messaging me? It's actually funny.

Ps. Yes I did say "I bet those teams have a defenseman.." so I lost that bet. Does that make you happy?

My main point was that no recent cup winner has won with all 4 of their highest paid players being forwards. If you cannot grasp that then I dont know what to tell you.

Ps#2 lol at you accusing me of whining and putting up smoke and mirrors or what ever it was. You literally tried to change the conversation from team cap structure to just the playoffs. Then you started making things up like I have a problem with our goaltending, etc. What are you, 12? Grow up

 

[Havoc]

Why you guys fighting over Marner lol.

Who cares what he gets. Won't be hard creating a contender when your top 6 is Matthews/Nylander(non-lockout version) and JT/Marner.

Parity is hugeeeeee for bottom 6 players now. You'll always be able to find warriors making < 1-2 mil to go up against other teams bottom 6 players, especially if you draft smart.

Do any of us really know half of Boston's team? Clifton, some grizzly dude, acciari, that guy who made Polak look useless last year, kuraly, wagner, nordstrom etc.

When Caps won the cup their bottom 6 made what, 9 mil combined?

Pay your stars and move on. Colorado almost made the conference finals being a one line superstar team. Rantanen is about to get the same 9-10 mil as Marner.

You guys are overrating this whole 40 mil combined across 4 players. When those 4 players are AM/JT/Marner/Nylander you shouldn't lose any sleep.

Up to the suits to make sure the bottom 6 is full of 1 mil hustlers that can skate and sometimes force us to have to trade them because they end up being worth 3+ mil.


The real contracts bringing this team down are Marleau and Zaitsev. I like Zaitsev but not for 4 mil. Marleau and Zaitsev's salaries can get you Boston's entire bottom 6.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Who says marner is even going to be overpaid? The list of players who have hit 90+ points while on their elc is very small. Seems like some of you posters assume nylander will improve but that somehow marner wont. Makes no sense. Marner is a year younger and less mature physically so should have more room to grow.

I didn't say Marner is going to be overpaid. To me, Nylander isn't overpaid. Marner deserves a big contract. Matthews contract could be longer, but the caphit is right.

But to others, Nylander contract is a nightmare? They're more worried about signing one of their young stars to a 6.9M contract, than having two 11+ million contracts + another possible 10+ mill contract.

Makes no sense to me.

I don't really care what the main boards say. Sometimes they are right out of it and there are lots of anti leaf fans out there. But it does give you a bit of an idea about what other fans think instead of a leaf fan telling other leaf fans that we are better cap wise than the team that literally just broke records and has their best player and captain locked up on good deals. Imo you are being biased here.

You're not getting the point though. Callahan, Miller, Gourde, Johnson, Palat all signed to 5M+ contracts long-term. They still have to get their 92 point center signed to a contract, the best goalie in the league signed to a contract, and Sergachev. How?

My point that started all of this is that no team has gone forward with all 4 of their highest paid players being forwards. The fact that Holtby is their 4th highest player means that the caps did not have their top 4 paid players as forwards. Also niskanen was tied with Oshie for 5th highest paid.

Yes, but isn't that a good thing for us? We have our 1G and 1D signed for super-cheap, which other teams couldn't accomplish.

 

[Skin Tape Session]

Look up QoC for the two years. I never said Marner didn't benefit. I was refuting the notion that he was carried which a lot of people here have insinuated or outright said. Anyone who has watched him play knows he isn't being carried.
In case people have forgotten what Marner does...

He's so good. If he was on any other team people would be going back to what his dad said about living in mcd shadow and how he's just as good. I don't think I'd trade him for anyone in the nhl as he fits perfect with tavares

 

[DarkKnight]

Look up QoC for the two years. I never said Marner didn't benefit. I was refuting the notion that he was carried which a lot of people here have insinuated or outright said. Anyone who has watched him play knows he isn't being carried.
In case people have forgotten what Marner does...

"Complimentary" is the word, "carried" is comical.

 

[Notsince67]

He's so good. If he was on any other team people would be going back to what his dad said about living in mcd shadow and how he's just as good. I don't think I'd trade him for anyone in the nhl as he fits perfect with tavares

In all honesty when I saw the clip, I forgot a bit and I watched the whole season. It really is hard to believe

 

[Fogelhund]

I believe hockey is a team game and Boston will always be better than us when their key players aren't taking too big pieces of the cap.

View attachment 229045

A steal vs our 11, 11.6, x.x, 6.9.

so sad.

Your conclusion lacks context. The guys on Boston were all fairly paid for their production at the time.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Your conclusion lacks context. The guys on Boston were all fairly paid for their production at the time.

Bingo.

Marchand signed his extension in September of 2016. Coming off a career high 61 points in his 6th NHL season. Before that he never topped 55. He then went on to put up 85, 85, and 100 and Boston reaped the rewards of that one.

Bergeron signed his after a lockout shortened season in July 2013. It had been 6 years since he topped 70 points and 7 years since he scored 30 goals and he looked to be trending down towards a 20 goal/50 point player. Since he signed he's topped 30 goals and 60 points 4 times each.

Pastrnak was coming off a 34 goal, 70 point season but his previous two years he had 26 points and 27 points. He took the long term security of the deal over betting on himself to repeat that single years performance.

 

[Menzinger]

Your conclusion lacks context. The guys on Boston were all fairly paid for their production at the time.

I dont know why this is so hard to understand lol.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

This is the last time I am going to explain it for you. Hopefully this time you understand.

A poster (pretty sure it was mess) was talking about how much we have tied up in our top 4 players and that it's hard to win with that kind of setup.

Another poster said no, lots of cup winners have had a similar amount of cap tied to their top 4 players.

I came in and said that we are the only team to have all forwards in the top 4 highest paid. That's it. I didn't say it was good or bad. I didn't say we need a defenseman or goalie in the top 4.

If you dont care that we have 4 forwards, why do you keep messaging me? It's actually funny.

Ps. Yes I did say "I bet those teams have a defenseman.." so I lost that bet. Does that make you happy?

My main point was that no recent cup winner has won with all 4 of their highest paid players being forwards. If you cannot grasp that then I dont know what to tell you.

Ps#2 lol at you accusing me of whining and putting up smoke and mirrors or what ever it was. You literally tried to change the conversation from team cap structure to just the playoffs. Then you started making things up like I have a problem with our goaltending, etc. What are you, 12? Grow up

So if you don’t think our cap structure is good or bad why do you keep posting about other cup winners and arbitrary attributes about their cap structure compared to ours?

 

[kb]

Patheitic on here. Mitch's 5v5 goes waaaay up., It'a all Mitch.

JT's goes up less. Still, all Mitch.

Tavares' points go up by 4, Mitch's go up by 25. Hey, all Mitch.

So Tavares provides nothing to Mitch, and Mitch is the only reason Tavares can put up points, and without Mitch the Leafs would have folded.

lol

Said:"nothing remotely hockey related yet again"

Mr Marner, find another board. You are an embarrassment to your son and his (formerly) good name. Mods, could we at least make it look like you are attempting to get him talking about hockey related matters only His entire posting history relates to his views on posters, and not post contents.

 

[kb]

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion he had tougher competition considering he was the captain, leading scorer for most of the seasons he was there and the top line centre on the Islanders, which would mean teams focus on him more than other players. Not to mention the Islanders were a mediocre team with a -32 goal differential the year he had a -12, which mind you is hardly the best indicator of how good a player is. It's also pretty lame that you ignored the 3 previous seasons, which saw Tavares have a + in those 3 seasons, including guiding the Islanders to 2 years in the playoffs including a second round. I'm by no means saying he hasn't benefited from playing with Marner, but to suggest Marner hasn't befitted from playing with Tavares would be rather silly, . I mean, its John Tavares, he doesn't exactly need Marner to produce. He's been over PPG 3 times and missed out on PPG twice before coming to the Leafs . Let's not sell the man short

I am sorry sir, the only right answer is that Mitch carried a pathetically mediocre player to heretofore unknown heights. Tavares has no bearing on anything.

There is absolutely zero chance that it was a #1c who carried a team on his back for a decade that helped Mitch out in any way. And Mitch is way better than that bum Matthews, who scored less points playing far fewer games with 3rd and 4th liners.

I am sorry sir, your opinion is not welcome here. Mr. Marner will try to ridicule you at every turn.

Mitch is the best player in hockey history. Give him his $16.6 million per season for the next 8 seasons. Actually, make it 6, he needs to sign for 20% of the cap for 8 years before he gets too old.

 

[Notsince67]

Patheitic on here. Mitch's 5v5 goes waaaay up., It'a all Mitch.

JT's goes up less. Still, all Mitch.

Tavares' points go up by 4, Mitch's go up by 25. Hey, all Mitch.

So Tavares provides nothing to Mitch, and Mitch is the only reason Tavares can put up points, and without Mitch the Leafs would have folded.

lol



Mr Marner, find another board. You are an embarrassment to your son and his (formerly) good name. Mods, could we at least make it look like you are attempting to get him talking about hockey related matters only His entire posting history relates to his views on posters, and not post contents.

Yeah. Lets keep the negative comments of Marner go up unanswered because the Nylander crew is getting triggered by their own words