Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion

[kb]

Last year, don't move the goalposts dude.

He doesn't need Marner to excel. Marner needs Tavares. No goalposts needed.

 

[kb]

Marner went from a bit player on the PK beginning of they year, to supplanting Brown on the top PK unit. To try and undercut that development, and say he wasn't good on the PK is pure answer utter BD, he was good enough to steal jobs and be out there most of the time. Now he's to blame because we can't doe anything down low on the PK and we're slow when the puck moves around. Yes, yes, there are two videos of him partially responsible, so go look at Kapanen while you're at it on the PK against Boston he was garbage, couldn't recognize anything, slow to move, passive....to blame Marner now for the PK, when all he did was evolve into a trusted guy on the top unit, is just crap. As far as I'm concerned, he's the lone bright spot on the PK moving forward, he and Hyman a great forward pair.

Here's a prediction, he will excel on the PK next year.

I look at the PK in the playoffs too. He got exposed.

 

[DarkKnight]

He doesn't need Marner to excel. Marner needs Tavares. No goalposts needed.

What a joke.

Tavares with Marner: 69 5 v 5 points, 37 goals
Tavares career high without Marner: 55 5 v 5 points, 25 goals

Hello in there. Lame.

 

[kb]

Last year, don't move the goalposts dude. Ya, and there's a decade there alright, his 5 v 5 production has never been close to last year.

Right. And has he ever had that kind of lineup support before? Nope, he was the sole focus of every opponent for a decade. The best player by far on his team.

 

[kb]

What a joke.

Tavares with Marner: 69 5 v 5 points, 37 goals
Tavares career high without Marner: 55 5 v 5 points, 25 goals

Hello in there.

Ah, but the whole argument over the last 5 pages was points only. No context was allowed like games played.

Play by their rules like I am.

 

[DarkKnight]

Ah, but the whole argument over the last 5 pages was points only. No context was allowed like games played.

Play by their rules like I am.

You're playing in a sandbox. Cheers.

 

[Fogelhund]

Date on the sheet is May 5. Jordan weal signed April 26. Nate Thompson April 25.
Jan Rutta May 3, Christian Folin April 18, Jacob Nilsson April 19

All you had to do, was read past the first sentence.... Our initial projections went up in mid-April, and even though it’s only been a few weeks

Spreadsheet dates update, everytime you make an addition.... like you said, Rutta, May 3rd... was added to the spreadsheet on the 5th. You know, last updated/saved on....

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Dubas has to wait until the Rantanen deal is done.
Mikko Rantanen - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Dubas needs help.

 

[Coatsy79]

All I know is, if these guys want top dollar, then they need to perform, leave everything on the ice, no more excuses, if they want to be paid big boy money, they need to bring it like the big boys do those 4 guys may end up being close to 45/50% of the cap which like it or not has an impact on the lower end of the team, or we'll be going nowhere fast

 

[HamiltonNHL]

All I know is, if these guys want top dollar, then they need to perform, leave everything on the ice, no more excuses, if they want to be paid big boy money, they need to bring it like the big boys do those 4 guys may end up being close to 45/50% of the cap which like it or not has an impact on the lower end of the team, or we'll be going nowhere fast

I believe hockey is a team game and Boston will always be better than us when their key players aren't taking too big pieces of the cap.

A steal vs our 11, 11.6, x.x, 6.9.

so sad.

 

[Notsince67]

Oh, the PK that nearly dropped to the bottom 1/3 of the league?

He played on the PK, just not particularly well. Not shocking that some would trumpet this as a benefit. The lone reason Marner outproduced Matthews because he had John Tavares on his line - period. Look at who Matthews played with this season if you don't agree. Certainly no one close to the realm of a Tavares. Have them switch linemates and we'll revisit this discussion on best. And Tavares made Mitch what he was this season. Without Tavares, he doesn't come anywhere close to leading this team. Had Mathews not missed those games (nor played with 3rd liners or worse), we wouldn't even be mentioning Marner as a candidate for best player at all. Matthews has it all over Marner in 5v5 goal scoring and primary points/60 for his ELC seasons (especially without Tavares).

Again, breaking it to the most simplistic reality for those who may have missed it before:

Tavares without Marner: 4 less points.
Hyman without Marner: 1 less point.

Marner without Tavares: 25 less points.

Tavares has (for his entire career) made linemates significantly better and more productive. This cannot yet be said about Mitch. Tavares had to be the setup man on the Isles to make his linemates better. He now plays with an elite passer in Marner, so he adjusts his game again to being more of a trigger man and his goals go up. Shocking. But the not so shocking thing is that Tavares' overall points was only marginally higher. Again, not shocking. Marner being away from Tavares would suffer statistically far more than Tavares being away from Marner. He's the elite player on that line which allows Mitch to be Mitch - JT has for years had game plans designed around him, and yet again teams eventually caught on that the only way to stop the line this year was to neutralize Tavares. Take away Mitch's passing options. It's precisely why Marner is fundamentally a 1 trick pony, because once you take away his primary passing option, he has little left in his arsenal to beat anyone. This was painfully apparent in the Leafs PP as the year wore on. Teams realized they were keying on the wrong player early in the season, and caught on to keying on Tavares again as the season went on. As Tavares went, so did that line.

Seriously, that was a post almost as misguided as Mitch's dad Paul could bring up. Oh,speaking of which:


Well, scoring the most points at the PeeWee level would probably qualify for the right of best player (AND a shiny participation trophy). But even then, maybe not. However, you can reference other posts in this thread with regards to 5v5 rate adjusted scoring over the ELC period for a reality check, and hopefully provide an answer to any further questions you may wish to pose about who really deserves the money. Take away Tavares from the line and perform all calculations again. I'm fairly certain that level of knowledge displayed in this quoted post accurately describes the aforementioned hockey level referred to in my opening sentence.

But hey, someone else is throwing up the stats in this thread that make these quoted posts look disingenuous, not me. I'll just let you guys keep doing what you do best.....which (sadly for all) has nothing to do with enriching any hockey related discussion.

You are tripping all over yourself yet again. You have made claims in the past that Marner relied on such high producing players like Marleau and Kadri last year while Nylander had to suffer with bad LW like Hyman and he had to play against the Bergeron line. Something about QoC and such. You are a walking contradiction.
You spout every bit of nonsense that comes through your head and a detailed line by line explanation with you is clearly useless because you are too lazy to read past posts on the subject and remember the recycled arguments you made that are completely contradictory. This is just too easy so I am moving on to someone who is at least coherent.

 

[Notsince67]

He doesn't need Marner to excel. Marner needs Tavares. No goalposts needed.

Yeah...the guy getting carried usually ends up with the higher points.
What a joke

 

[Notsince67]

I believe hockey is a team game and Boston will always be better than us when their key players aren't taking too big pieces of the cap.

View attachment 229045

A steal vs our 11, 11.6, x.x, 6.9.

so sad.

We can hope that they start to age quickly

 

[SniperOnTheWing]

The Leafs finally get some young superstars on the team and some geniuses want to trade them because they don't like there contract demands and without being in the boardroom and discussing the team's future direction

I know right? For years we had nobody and now we have multiple superstar level players, but Leafs fans want them to play for nothing and sign a bunch of charity contracts as though it's some kind of fantasy world where we can have our cake and eat it too.

That's not the reality. Talent costs big money.

 

[hockeyes]

It's crazy how the team hasn't accomplished anything and they are struggling just to keep it together. It's pretty hard to blame the players when money Mike is leading the way

 

[biotk]

What was JT's production when he wasn't playing with Marner, you conveniently left that out, I suspect I know why.

Tavares' production was up without Marner. It has been mentioned several times in this thread, so that is why I didn't mention it.

Tavares P/60 with Marner 5v5: 2.77
Tavares P/60 without Marner 5v5: 3.39

 

[Funk21]

It's crazy how the team hasn't accomplished anything and they are struggling just to keep it together. It's pretty hard to blame the players when money Mike is leading the way

This comes down to inexperienced management I am afraid. We should have given the boots to the Nylander signing at nothing more than 6x6. Matthews should have been 4x9.5 and finally Marner should have been 7/8 at 9.5-10. I know that we can wax poetic of what should have been but they really dropped the ball.

They need to ensure this does happen again and lock up most players after year 2 of ELC

 

[biotk]

Marner has been great on the PK. Really great. For that we can thank Babcock actually trying him out on the PK. He should have tried him out earlier, and he should have done the same with Nylander and Matthews. Maybe they too would be really great. Maybe they wouldn't. They haven't been given the chance.

People seem to forget how it happened. With the acquisition of Tavares there were a lot of questions about ice time for the Leafs' three centers. One the questions that had been asked in the media in the summer was how cold some of the Leafs players like Matthews, Tavares and Kadri could end up after a PK (or two PKs close together) if none of them were on the PK. It was possible to have had any of them not on the ice for a couple minutes before a penalty was taken, then have a 2 minute PK and then you still wouldn't have room to put out Matthews, Tavares, Kadri, Marner and Nylander at the same time. Could end up being a long stretch. This was talked about in the summer. Babcock when asked said he didn't care about ice time.

Finally on September 15th at camp it looked as though Tavares and Marner might play on the PK.

Babcock, when asked, said: "I’d like Mitch and John to play a little bit at the end of the power plays. But they’ve got to be good killers. It’s a good theory and it’s good for their ice time. I don’t care about that. I like winning."

And indeed for the first little while they generally only played a bit and at the end of the PK. Then Tavares' PK time (which was more than Marner's at the start of the season) fell dramatically, and Marner started playing a lot more PK time and playing a more prominent role.

Good on Marner for taking an opportunity and running with it. But at the same time it is sad that only reason he got the opportunity in the first place was because of concerns over ice time and Babcock looking at his two intended lines top lines (Hyman-Tavares-Marner and Marleau-Matthews-Nylander) and deciding that because Hyman would be logging big PK minutes, and Tavares was a veteran gud pro with PK experience, the Matthews line should be the first line to go out after a PK and therefore Tavares and Marner should be given some opportunities to kill at the end of penalties.

 

[diceman934]

...

Fans like you deserve to be stuck in the pre-Shanny era lol. 'Pro Nylander' group, 'Pro Marner' group ... Only the Leafs fanbase could have such mixed opinions about their star players.

Nylander is not a star. To be a star one must play and produce like a star. I was replying to one poster who like me is tired of the nonsense used to defend Nylander and stack Marner. I am a Leaf fan.

 

[Clark4Ever]

I believe hockey is a team game and Boston will always be better than us when their key players aren't taking too big pieces of the cap.

View attachment 229045

A steal vs our 11, 11.6, x.x, 6.9.

so sad.

It's not a fair comparison though when you consider the timing of the contract extensions. If Boston had to re-sign their top players now, it would be an entirely different narrative.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Nylander is not a star. To be a star one must play and produce like a star. I was replying to one poster who like me is tired of the nonsense used to defend Nylander and stack Marner. I am a Leaf fan.

I really don't want to get into the argument again, but how? 61 points in both of his first NHL seasons. He has one bad stretch of hockey, gets overpaid by 500K, holds out for a bit, and all of a sudden he's the Leafs worst problem to have happened the past decade.

There's always a whipping boy in Toronto. Whether it be Kadri, Gardiner or Nylander, it's getting really tiring. You may be tired of the 'nonsense' people defending Nylander, but a real Leaf fan wouldn't be shitting on it's good players. Polak, Bozak, Komarov, Martin, even Hyman, yeah it's understandable. But Nylander!? All of a sudden the Leafs are too good to have good players on their team.

 

[ImpartialNHLfan]

I know right? For years we had nobody and now we have multiple superstar level players, but Leafs fans want them to play for nothing and sign a bunch of charity contracts as though it's some kind of fantasy world where we can have our cake and eat it too.

That's not the reality. Talent costs big money.

No one said anything about them playing for nothing or charity contracts, that's an absurd hot take. But a fair contract to both the team AND the player would be nice, like other star players get on other teams.

 

[diceman934]

I really don't want to get into the argument again, but how? 61 points in both of his first NHL seasons. He has one bad stretch of hockey, gets overpaid by 500K, holds out for a bit, and all of a sudden he's the Leafs worst problem to have happened the past decade.

There's always a whipping boy in Toronto. Whether it be Kadri, Gardiner or Nylander, it's getting really tiring. You may be tired of the 'nonsense' people defending Nylander, but a real Leaf fan wouldn't be ****ting on it's good players. Polak, Bozak, Komarov, Martin, even Hyman, yeah it's understandable. But Nylander!? All of a sudden the Leafs are too good to have good players on their team.

So being selective in attacking players is fine in your opinion. Carry on.

 

[Mess]

It's crazy how the team hasn't accomplished anything and they are struggling just to keep it together. It's pretty hard to blame the players when money Mike is leading the way

Management salaries are irrelevant to player contract decisions, as they don't impact the team in anyway financially.

 

[Randy Randerson]

I believe hockey is a team game and Boston will always be better than us when their key players aren't taking too big pieces of the cap.

View attachment 229045

A steal vs our 11, 11.6, x.x, 6.9.

so sad.

Pastrnak & Marchand outperformed their contracts and draft positions, so the Bruins really got more than they paid for. It's hard to do that with top 10 and top 5 picks or UFA's, they come with the expectation of really high level performance as long as they're trending up. We have done well with Rielly and Kadri there, the Zaitsev contract was an attempt to do the same imo, and we might have the opportunity to do the same with Kapanen/Johnsson/Dermott/Bracco in the next couple of years.

The other thing is that the recency of our signings make this look worse than it will a few years into the future. That 11, 11.6, 6.9 and Marner won't be bad at all in 4 years when the cap is $100M+, and at that point the Hughes/Kakko/Dahlin/Pettersson contingent will be signing contracts that make the ones that we're doing look very good (assuming those guys live up to their hype), that's just the nature of salaries chasing an inflating cap