Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion

[The Hanging Jowl]

You mistake me for someone who celebrates idiotic management. I'm just telling you what's going to happen, not what I actually want.

But unfortunately that ship has long sailed. This upcoming Marner contract was decided with the last three: Matthews, Nylander, and Tavares

I'd hardly blame Mitch and his agent for claiming what's clearly up for grabs based on precedent.

What you should do is blame the rookie GM who's already allowed three players to ride the gravy train.

Just because they overpaid on 1 or 2 contracts doesn't justify overpaying again. And BTW, Tavares and Matthews score goals at a league leading rate. You pay for that. I find Marner's skillset a joy to watch but he's not an elite goalscorer. He simply doesn't deserve the kind of money being discussed on several fronts.

Now is the time to take a stand or it will be too late and this core will be hopelessly entitled and lost.

 

[MLSE]

Anything 5 years or longer and under 10.5 and I would say a job very well done.

People assuming 9.5 is doable are going to want to have Dubas' head.

Reality is 9.5 is very unrealistic.

 

[Mr Hockey]

wasn't it said Matthews wanted something like 14 for 8? I'm thinking Marner is looking for 11-12 for 8 I bet.

 

[Morgs]

You mistake me for someone who celebrates idiotic management. I'm just telling you what's going to happen, not what I actually want.

But unfortunately that ship has long sailed. This upcoming Marner contract was decided with the last three: Matthews, Nylander, and Tavares

I'd hardly blame Mitch and his agent for claiming what's clearly up for grabs based on precedent.

What you should do is blame the rookie GM who's already allowed three players to ride the gravy train.

Nah. Nylander got market value. Tavares was offered what was rumoured 14M by San Jose. Matthews is the one guy we had to "overpay" and the money is fine, the years are what sucks - he's the one guy we couldn't risk being offersheeted.

Marner there's significant evidence shouldn't be making over 8.5M, let alone the double digit figures most people have decided he deserves for literally no reason. I understand we're going to have to overpay him, but I'm just excited to see people feel like he "took a discount" if he goes under 10 LOL.

 

[Hockey Crazy]

Those are atrocious deals for the leafs. They do follow the trend put in place by Matthews deal which was short in term and about 2-2.5 million overpaid. Marner shouldn't be touching 10.5 million on a 8 year deal. He isnt currently a top 3 winger in the world and it just doesnt make sense for him to get a better contract than kane, kucherov, and ovy(outdated so not as strong). Leafs must go for a 6 year deal if they cant get term and end it at 10 million dollars. That is still insane money for only 6 years.

I agree. 6x9.8

 

[Bomber0104]

Just because they overpaid on 1 or 2 contracts doesn't justify overpaying again.

I'm not the one that needs convincing.

Unfortunately those "1 or 2 contracts" are going to be the ones that Marner's camp puts square in front of Dubas, and he's going to have the unfortunate pleasure of telling Marner's agent to his face that he overpaid those players but doesn't feel like granting the same leniency to Mitch.

Can you picture how that's going to go down?

I imagine that's why Shanahan had to sit in on the negotiations so far...

And BTW, Tavares and Matthews score goals at a league leading rate. You pay for that.

And all those doorstep tap-ins that we saw Mitch place on JT's stick? I imagine he get's paid for those. Not to mention putting up point totals at a team best and league leading rate...

I find Marner's skillset a joy to watch but he's not an elite goalscorer. He simply doesn't deserve the kind of money being discussed on several fronts.

Now is the time to take a stand or it will be too late and this core will be hopelessly entitled and lost.

The time for Dubas to "take a stand" was before the Nylander and Matthews negotiations.

His weakness in those two negotiations has only emboldened Marner's positon.

 

[Bomber0104]

Nah. Nylander got market value. Tavares was offered what was rumoured 14M by San Jose. Matthews is the one guy we had to "overpay" and the money is fine, the years are what sucks - he's the one guy we couldn't risk being offersheeted.

Marner there's significant evidence shouldn't be making over 8.5M, let alone the double digit figures most people have decided he deserves for literally no reason. I understand we're going to have to overpay him, but I'm just excited to see people feel like he "took a discount" if he goes under 10 LOL.

If he takes under $10 and more than 5-6 years we're lucky.

 

[hamzarocks]

Nah. Nylander got market value. Tavares was offered what was rumoured 14M by San Jose. Matthews is the one guy we had to "overpay" and the money is fine, the years are what sucks - he's the one guy we couldn't risk being offersheeted.

Marner there's significant evidence shouldn't be making over 8.5M, let alone the double digit figures most people have decided he deserves for literally no reason. I understand we're going to have to overpay him, but I'm just excited to see people feel like he "took a discount" if he goes under 10 LOL.

9.5 is fair value for marner. Anything under that is a discounted deal and Dubas deserves heaps of praise if he can get that deal. 8.5 million dollars is what Draisaitl got riding shot gun to the 4th or 5th best player of all time. Draisatil got 11.33% of the salary cap. 9.5 million puts marner at 11.45% on a 83 million dollar salary cap. Taking into accounts that star young players coming off their ELC will be getting paid larger amounts off the bat the deal is simply fair from both sides. Draisaitl was worse in 2/3 seaons of his ELC than marner but was slightly better league-wide in terms of scoring but played on a better team with a greater quality of linemates (16/17 oilers>18/19 leafs). I don't think 0.12% is worth losing marner(our best or 2nd best player moving forward) over if your trying to set Draisaitl as the limit.

My only thing would be term. Draisaitl got his money based on 8 years. Marner should be making 9.5 on a 8 year deal and if he goes the 5, 6, 7 year route it should lower his cap hit. I don't expect him to come in at 9.5 and am content living with a 500k overpayment with him as we did for nylander. Dubas has to be hard on this negotiation. Marner is a lot of peoples favorite player(mine included) but at the end of the day after royally f***ing up the Matthews deal we need to set a hard line.

We can live without marner and even potentially improve if we play our cards right. Nylander becoming the player he was expected to be is needed, and we would need to get an under 25 RHD signed long term along with using the cap space we have left over on a secondary winger from the f/a class. I don't want it to come to this as besides rielly I would see any other leaf go to have marner play our his career here, but after the pathetic showing our leafs had this year in the playoffs and seeing our young players not willing to relent a single dollar on their deals we need to play hardball with marner (along with kap and AJ when we move onto their deals).

 

[LeafsNation75]

Nah. Nylander got market value. Tavares was offered what was rumoured 14M by San Jose.

Actually the reported offer from San Jose for Tavares was $91 million over 7 years, which is a $13.5 million AAV.

Wilson wouldn’t discuss San Jose’s pitch, but word is he told Tavares, “You are the final piece for us.” It has also been rumoured (but never confirmed) that the Sharks were willing to pay $13.5 million per year for seven years. “That was a confident group,” one source says. “They felt they were the best option for John, and they showed it.”

How the Toronto Maple Leafs signed John Tavares - Sportsnet.ca

 

[Morgs]

If he takes under $10 and more than 5-6 years we're lucky.

Nah, still would be wildly overpaid.

 

[Morgs]

Actually the reported offer from San Jose for Tavares was $91 million over 7 years, which is a $13.5 million AAV.



How the Toronto Maple Leafs signed John Tavares - Sportsnet.ca

I stand corrected.

 

[Bomber0104]

Nah, still would be wildly overpaid.

Then he'll fit right in with the rest of Dubas' gravy train contracts.

I'm guessing Negotiations 101 wasn't taught at Brock University.

 

[Scott Stevens]

Nah, still would be wildly overpaid.

How? Are Matthews and Nylander and Tavares not his best comparables? Those from our own team, pecking order. Mitch isn’t below anyone if you ask me. And if the centre vs winger thing wins out, he’s relegated to even with 91+34.

 

[Morgs]

Then he'll fit right in with the rest of Dubas' gravy train contracts.

I'm guessing Negotiations 101 wasn't taught at Brock University.

Seeing how he was a player agent and a student under Lou "lets give Marleau and Zaitsev ridiculous contracts" Lam I'm sure he's been a part of many negotiations.

Nylander's contract is market value. Matthews contract is clearly based on Malkin's after ELC, and the $$ is fine - the years hurt, but that can be fixed down the road.

The Marner contract is by far the hardest, but also the one he can stand to wait on. Marner isn't leaving and losing his 30 sponsors - I'd let him threaten the offersheet all he wants and either have him cave or trade him for a Kings ransom.

 

[Bomber0104]

Seeing how he was a player agent and a student under Lou "lets give Marleau and Zaitsev ridiculous contracts" Lam I'm sure he's been a part of many negotiations.

Nylander's contract is market value. Matthews contract is clearly based on Malkin's after ELC, and the $$ is fine - the years hurt, but that can be fixed down the road.

The Marner contract is by far the hardest, but also the one he can stand to wait on. Marner isn't leaving and losing his 30 sponsors - I'd let him threaten the offersheet all he wants and either have him cave or trade him for a Kings ransom.

The offersheet threat can easily come in at $10.5M , just shy of the four 1st round pick compensation.



You can dream all you want but there's not a reason in the world why Marner needs to make concessions to the Leafs when Matthews, Nylander, and Tavares didn't.

They'll take this to July 1st and gain leverage to push the ask to $10+ million..

 

[Teeder Keon]

In today’s sports and hockey world , Marner and all the new signings around the league will get 95% of what they want ....
Live with it !
Times have changed , period !
You can talk all you want about hard ball
It ain’t going to happen
You as management , ownership will give them their contract in order that other players and new players will see that you care about winning at all costs ...
Like it or not ... this is the new NHL and another step towards being the replica of the NBA
I abhor salary caps in professional sports , it’s bullshit !
We shouldn’t be talking about contracts and cap hits and blah blah blah parity and anything can happen once in the playoffs
No more dynasties
So let’s get over the facts that no more hard ball with players , cuz if you do , you won’t have a good program ...
The young players have hand and the hammer , that’s what it is now

 

[Gabriel426]

I guess if Point, Laine, Aho, Rantanen all signs for under 9mil. It must be a huge slap in the face to Marner if the Leafs would only offer 9mil.

 

[Teeder Keon]

I guess if Point, Laine, Aho, Rantanen all signs for under 9mil. It must be a huge slap in the face to Marner if the Leafs would only offer 9mil.

They will all be 9.5-11.5 mil from here on in until the next threshold of 10.5-12.5 and so on and so on and so on
It’s like gas prices
In BC where I’m from ..
165. Per L is now a great price for regular gas

 

[Teeder Keon]

Get rid of this horrible salary cap , it’s killing the long range greatness of your sport , as you will only pay large for 6 -7 core players and inject and rotate cheap younger players in your bottom 6 forward lines and bottom 3 defenders and back up goalie every year ...
That’s why your development program and found wallets are worth more than ever ..
7 players for 75-80 mill
And 10 mill to split up for the rest of your roster ..
And also know that your loosing 1-2 upcoming solid players per year for nothing and 2-3 players that are walking regardless
Every year .

 

[shakermaker]

In today’s sports and hockey world , Marner and all the new signings around the league will get 95% of what they want ....
Live with it !
Times have changed , period !
You can talk all you want about hard ball
It ain’t going to happen
Your as a management , ownership will give them their contract in order that other players and new players will see that you care about winning at all costs ...
Like it or not ... this is the new NHL and another step towards being the replica of the NBA
I abhor salary caps in professional sports , it’s bull**** !
We shouldn’t be talking about contracts and cap hits and blah blah blah
Parody parody and anything can happen once in the playoffs
No more dynasties
So let’s get over the facts that no more hard ball with players , cuz if you , you won’t have a good program ...
The young players have hand and the hammer , that’s what it is now

I think you mean parity but other than that yeah, you're mostly right.

 

[Teeder Keon]

I think you mean parity but other than that yeah, you're mostly right.

thank you for pointing that out

 

[Morgs]

The offersheet threat can easily come in at $10.5M , just shy of the four 1st round pick compensation.



You can dream all you want but there's not a reason in the world why Marner needs to make concessions to the Leafs when Matthews, Nylander, and Tavares didn't.

They'll take this to July 1st and gain leverage to push the ask to $10+ million..

Lol and if Marner takes 10.5 from another team (which I'm not convinced he would), he's going to lose quite a few sponsors (which I'm sure would be more than the 1M~ difference).

Honestly his closest comparable coming into the new contract is Draisaitl. Marner's PPG is higher, but Drai was 8th in scoring his final year before signing, where as Marner was 11th. Drai is a C, Marner is a W. Cap has risen since then, so even though I'm not overly convinced he's worth 9~ that's an overpayment that both sides should just accept.

Him making more than Kucherov or Stone is just hilarious though.

 

[LeafsNation75]

The offersheet threat can easily come in at $10.5M , just shy of the four 1st round pick compensation.



You can dream all you want but there's not a reason in the world why Marner needs to make concessions to the Leafs when Matthews, Nylander, and Tavares didn't.

They'll take this to July 1st and gain leverage to push the ask to $10+ million..

Even if in the worst case scenario Marner signed an offer sheet of $10.5 million I think the Leafs would match that right away.

 

[Gabriel426]

They will all be 9.5-11.5 mil from here on in until the next threshold of 10.5-12.5 and so on and so on and so on
It’s like gas prices
In BC where I’m from ..
165. Per L is now a great price for regular gas

I live in BC too and am seriously thinking about getting an electric car.
I was just making examples, that’s all.
For some strange reasons Marner’s supporters view changed from- Marner is the home town boy, bleeds the Blue and White and will take a discount to play for the Leafs to Marner is worth more than Matthews, why should he takes a discount when others didn’t, why should Marner let Dubas fixes his mistakes by taking one for the team, if Marner don’t get over 10mil-Leafs is not showing respects to Marner.....

 

[Teeder Keon]

I live in BC too and am seriously thinking about getting an electric car.
I was just making examples, that’s all.
For some strange reasons Marner’s supporters view changed from- Marner is the home town boy, bleeds the Blue and White and will take a discount to play for the Leafs to Marner is worth more than Matthews, why should he takes a discount when others didn’t, why should Marner let Dubas fixes his mistakes by taking one for the team, if Marner don’t get over 10mil-Leafs is not showing respects to Marner.....

I agree with you other than your statement regarding ( Dubas mistakes ) I actually don’t think any of his signings at whatever costs are mistakes ..
I just think they are a sign of the times and in a politically correct sports world , I think he and we will be the benifactors down the road with this type of good management union between player and team ..
it’s just the way it is ..under salary cap conditions
By the way yes to the electric car or a 4 cylinder
It’s not getting any cheaper ...
Especially here in Tsawwassen
You ?