Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion Part II

[Kiwi]

Well, at $7 or $8m you're not a great deal off of where he probably should be.

That does seem a bit steep for a bridge.

It would be but I've just accepted that reality at this point, Marner's numbers are bloody good and he's an amazing player combined with our negotiating ability doesn't lead me to believe were going to get a deal

 

[Rare Jewel]

It would be but I've just accepted that reality at this point, Marner's numbers are bloody good and he's an amazing player combined with our negotiating ability doesn't lead me to believe were going to get a deal

Yeah he is, but I can't see how he can gets more than Kucherov or Kane. He just hasn't accomplished enough. Also he's not in their tier as far as goal scoring either.

 

[Kurtz]

Marner makes millions more here in endorsements than he would almost anywhere else. He has his best chance to win here. He and his dad probably don't want to move.

It's all a bluff by his camp - I hope Dubas plays tough on this one.

 

[biotk]

You know the same interview where Dreger talks about the Marner situation, he talks about Pastrnak and how Pastrnak was completely baffled that he was going to be paid more than 6M a year to play hockey and that he didn't care about the money. I assume that is true. But here is the thing - Pastrnak held out and didn't start camp on time. The agents are really in charge here (sometimes made worse by greedy parental influences) and players seem to be reluctant to step in which is a sad state of affairs. The agents don't care if the contract demands result in a player getting traded (there were rumours that Boston was starting to shop Pastrnak because they were frustrated they couldn't sign him to a reasonable contract - a player who was baffled to be making the kind of money he signed for), or the player's team being inferior instead of a contender, or another teammate and friend getting traded to make cap space for their client. They care about dollars - dollars today. If the players actually do care about any of that other stuff, when playing in a hard cap league, then they need to start speaking up.

So when people say that Marner won't want sign with another team keep in mind that Marner hired an agent to do these things for him, and he hired pretty much the greediest agent out there.

 

[diceman934]

Can you add? Now add 200K-500k (that's conservative) a company by how many big sponsors he's currently got (a crap ton), now what we end up with would be a ballpark figure we can work with which even using conservative numbers is well into the multi Millions of dollars a year

That's not propaganda, that's just basic math and not letting our love for a player blind us to reality, which one are you again?



They are if were viewing this from an asset standpoint, Marner is an asset just like our 4 1sts are assets and a potential Marner trade/offersheet return are assets

Every single one of those assets is currency

Utter nonsense. No one except His family and his agent knows how much money he is making. If you think it is 5m I have some nice land to sell you as well as a bridge.

We have those 4 first round picks of our own no matter what happens to Marner so tying them together is pure hatred.

We will trade Nylander before we would consider losing Marner.

 

[diceman934]

Yeah he is, but I can't see how he can gets more than Kucherov or Kane. He just hasn't accomplished enough. Also he's not in their tier as far as goal scoring either.

Same GM signed Mathews to a huge contract and he accomplished less then Marner.

 

[Rare Jewel]

Same GM signed Mathews to a huge contract and he accomplished less then Marner.

Matthews is a C, a better goal scorer and has a Calder. His contract is a year (or two) too short though.

 

[mouser]

Marner makes millions more here in endorsements than he would almost anywhere else. He has his best chance to win here. He and his dad probably don't want to move.

It's all a bluff by his camp - I hope Dubas plays tough on this one.

Are there any good sources on how much Marner makes in endorsements?

Forbes thinks McDavid and Crosby each make about $4m/year in endorsements and Tavares makes $1.4m/year which could have climbed this season.

 

[hamzarocks]

Matthews is a C, a better goal scorer and has a Calder. His contract is a year (or two) too short though.

Agree that Matthews has been better than Marner. The reasoning you provided is valid and just comparing the two through the past 3 years this is the only season where I'd say Marner outplayed Matthews. In 2/3 seasons Matthews was considerably better. I disagree that Matthews contract is 1/2 years short, it's a full 3 years short and even then he has yet to play at a level where he is worth 11.634 over 8 years.

Matthews has the worst post ELC contract in the league. He has no reasonable chance of outplaying the deal. He would need to be a near 120 point player to outplay what he earns. Leafs need to be extremely cautious when it comes to 16. Don't give him a stupid deal that he has no chance of outproducing. 10 million is the maximum figure I'd give marner over 8 years. His comparables have him worthy of 9.5 million on an 8-year deal. Using the cap percentage Draisailtl got for finishing 8th in league scoring on his final season of his ELC I believe you come 9.40 million as what Marner deserves based on his finish league-wide(11th in scoring though he didn't have the best player in the world as his center).

I can't imagine a scenario in which Dubas actively begins to seek Marner trades and our team becomes worse. This guy has insane value and the ability to be a key cog for our team either directly by taking a contract that fits into our cap system or by obtaining 2-3 premium pieces our roster needs to become legit cup contenders.

A deal proposed by a CBJ fan which I 100% pull the trigger on is

Marner+Zaitsev+Marleau for Werenski+Savard

Save 10ish million in cap which can go to a skinner level free agent and get 2 top 4 defenders added to the roster. Dubas has to set an early June deadline in which his last negotiation with Marner's agent he lets him know he will be actively pursing dealing marner and looking to fix the roster. Show them your not bluffing by working out deals(bridge ones hopefully) for kap and AJ and let Marner and his camp know the leafs won't wait for him and let him pull a nylander. He will either work a fair deal by 1st week of June or he should prepare himself to be moved from the organization.

 

[LeafSteel]

Damn you, Salary Cap!

Damn you to HELL!!!

 

[Kiwi]

Yeah he is, but I can't see how he can gets more than Kucherov or Kane. He just hasn't accomplished enough. Also he's not in their tier as far as goal scoring either.

11.6M×5, show me a comparable for that abomination? As we've shown comparables are for other teams, we set the market

Utter nonsense. No one except His family and his agent knows how much money he is making. If you think it is 5m I have some nice land to sell you as well as a bridge.

We have those 4 first round picks of our own no matter what happens to Marner so tying them together is pure hatred.

We will trade Nylander before we would consider losing Marner.

Hahaha, reading comprehension problems have We? I never wrote 5M, I wrote he's making multi millions in endorsements and I'm very confident I'm correct because I can add

There all assets, our picks are assets, Marner is an asset and his potential trade return would be assets that we would add to our assets

Pure hatred? You've got a bit of a problem, I don't care about Marner he's just another asset to me, clearly your very emotionally invested in him, you should think about that after your performance in the Nylander thread and try using a little self awareness, when did Leafs management tell you Nylander is getting traded so we can pay Marner exactly? are you clarvoint?

Trade one overpaid spoiled brat so we can overpay a different spoiled brat what a strategy, your a genius

 

[Rare Jewel]

Agree that Matthews has been better than Marner. The reasoning you provided is valid and just comparing the two through the past 3 years this is the only season where I'd say Marner outplayed Matthews. In 2/3 seasons Matthews was considerably better. I disagree that Matthews contract is 1/2 years short, it's a full 3 years short and even then he has yet to play at a level where he is worth 11.634 over 8 years.

Matthews has the worst post ELC contract in the league. He has no reasonable chance of outplaying the deal. He would need to be a near 120 point player to outplay what he earns. Leafs need to be extremely cautious when it comes to 16. Don't give him a stupid deal that he has no chance of outproducing. 10 million is the maximum figure I'd give marner over 8 years. His comparables have him worthy of 9.5 million on an 8-year deal. Using the cap percentage Draisailtl got for finishing 8th in league scoring on his final season of his ELC I believe you come 9.40 million as what Marner deserves based on his finish league-wide(11th in scoring though he didn't have the best player in the world as his center).

I can't imagine a scenario in which Dubas actively begins to seek Marner trades and our team becomes worse. This guy has insane value and the ability to be a key cog for our team either directly by taking a contract that fits into our cap system or by obtaining 2-3 premium pieces our roster needs to become legit cup contenders.

A deal proposed by a CBJ fan which I 100% pull the trigger on is

Marner+Zaitsev+Marleau for Werenski+Savard

Save 10ish million in cap which can go to a skinner level free agent and get 2 top 4 defenders added to the roster. Dubas has to set an early June deadline in which his last negotiation with Marner's agent he lets him know he will be actively pursing dealing marner and looking to fix the roster. Show them your not bluffing by working out deals(bridge ones hopefully) for kap and AJ and let Marner and his camp know the leafs won't wait for him and let him pull a nylander. He will either work a fair deal by 1st week of June or he should prepare himself to be moved from the organization.

In regards to Marner I agree. There should some sort of deadline put in place for him soon so that this doesn't get to a position where they're hands are tied.

Matthews was always going to get more than Eichel, we just weren't sure how much. But I think he can produce near enough offensively, particularly in goals to be worth his AAV at least. The issue is his contract does take him to UFA.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

11.6M×5, show me a comparable for that abomination? As we've shown comparables are for other teams, we set the market

Malkin, before he won a cup or any awards (except Calder), signed for ~10% more than that contract at the same term. Matthews consistently produced for 3yrs comparably to what Malkin had produced for 2 before Malkin signed his contract, and Matthews did it a year younger.

 

[hullsy47]

Marner makes millions more here in endorsements than he would almost anywhere else. He has his best chance to win here. He and his dad probably don't want to move.

It's all a bluff by his camp - I hope Dubas plays tough on this one i.

I agree u can have the highest payroll in the world
the leafs have 5 years to win a cup at some point 1 of these contracts are gonna cripple the leafs
let him explore the universe lol
9 million is fair

 

[Warden of the North]

Why couldnt they?

Because sports, like a lot of things in life, like arbitrary and dumb rules.

 

[Weltschmerz]

Malkin, before he won a cup or any awards (except Calder), signed for ~10% more than that contract at the same term. Matthews consistently produced for 3yrs comparably to what Malkin had produced for 2 before Malkin signed his contract, and Matthews did it a year younger.

Is that the same Malkin that produced over 300 points plus 62 points in the playoffs during his entry-level contract?

 

[Dayjobdave]

Exactly. Him and daddy can go on their sign me parade. The Leafs need to start planning for option B and C
It is the entitled me, me, me generation though

A few thoughts:

Yes, it has felt like Dreger is the biggest cheerleader for a Marner overpayment by far. His reporting has had a little odour to it where Marner is concerned.

If the quote above was about an unsigned Matthews I would be worried. Whew. Glad we locked up that guy because he WOULD have been offered the moon.

If the quote above is true:

Ferris and Paul Marner have misjudged how fragile Leaf-fan love is. This could poison the mood for Mitch here.

Ferris and Paul Marner Amaya also have misjudged where Mitch fits on the scale of RFAs this year. I love the kid but if you were giving up 4 firsts as a GM, you may pick someone else, or not do it at all.

Ferris and Paul Marner May have misjudged the will of Brendan Shanahan. Kyle or on Kyle, if they go on a publicity tour I believe he will be out of Toronto.

But in reality:

The kid will get signed and this planted Dreger trial balloon will forgotten. (Except for how it impacts his term on this deal, as management wont want him getting to UFA soon with that attitude.)

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Is that the same Malkin that produced over 300 points plus 62 points in the playoffs during his entry-level contract?

Yes, but lets not waste our time comparing Malkin's PP production to Matthews' 5v5 production.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

In regards to Marner I agree. There should some sort of deadline put in place for him soon so that this doesn't get to a position where they're hands are tied.

Matthews was always going to get more than Eichel, we just weren't sure how much. But I think he can produce near enough offensively, particularly in goals to be worth his AAV at least. The issue is his contract does take him to UFA.

I don't agree with the Marner deadline. I agree with those saying let Rantanen and Point sign first. They are easily his comparables right now. If Marner takes a stand for significantly more than these players, I say deal or wait him out (forever if need be). As much as I love the player, at some point a line in the sand needs to be drawn.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I'm not sure I believe these rumors any more than I did the ones where Nylander wanted $8.5M. In both cases, I think it was probably used as a high starting point to negotiate down from. I doubt Marner camp is even aiming at that number. I can see them aiming for $10M though.

Ferris and Paul Marner have misjudged how fragile Leaf-fan love is. This could poison the mood for Mitch here.

It already has, unfortunately. If there's one thing Willy camp did well it was to keep everything under wraps, all professional negotiations. if Marner camp uses media for this, it's going to work against him. At least where the fanbase is concerned.

 

[ShaneFalco]

A few thoughts:

Yes, it has felt like Dreger is the biggest cheerleader for a Marner overpayment by far. His reporting has had a little odour to it where Marner is concerned.

If the quote above was about an unsigned Matthews I would be worried. Whew. Glad we locked up that guy because he WOULD have been offered the moon.

If the quote above is true:

Ferris and Paul Marner have misjudged how fragile Leaf-fan love is. This could poison the mood for Mitch here.

Ferris and Paul Marner Amaya also have misjudged where Mitch fits on the scale of RFAs this year. I love the kid but if you were giving up 4 firsts as a GM, you may pick someone else, or not do it at all.

Ferris and Paul Marner May have misjudged the will of Brendan Shanahan. Kyle or on Kyle, if they go on a publicity tour I believe he will be out of Toronto.

But in reality:

The kid will get signed and this planted Dreger trial balloon will forgotten. (Except for how it impacts his term on this deal, as management wont want him getting to UFA soon with that attitude.)

You're probably right. It's just the drama before the signing I think everyone is getting tired of

 

[The CyNick]

or the mystery box could contain 4 anchors lol.

Which is most likely.

 

[diceman934]

11.6M×5, show me a comparable for that abomination? As we've shown comparables are for other teams, we set the market



Hahaha, reading comprehension problems have We? I never wrote 5M, I wrote he's making multi millions in endorsements and I'm very confident I'm correct because I can add

There all assets, our picks are assets, Marner is an asset and his potential trade return would be assets that we would add to our assets

Pure hatred? You've got a bit of a problem, I don't care about Marner he's just another asset to me, clearly your very emotionally invested in him, you should think about that after your performance in the Nylander thread and try using a little self awareness, when did Leafs management tell you Nylander is getting traded so we can pay Marner exactly? are you clarvoint?

Trade one overpaid spoiled brat so we can overpay a different spoiled brat what a strategy, your a genius

The lack of reading comprehension is all yours. As I replied to a post claiming Marner made 5 million in endorsements money last year. No one but his family and agent knows how much he made. Sorry but I doubt you are not likely in his family nor his agent. Adding up numbers that you have no idea about is about the stupidest thing I have read on here ever and that is saying something.

His endorsement money has nothing to do with his contract negotiations at all so why is it an issue. He has our produced Mathews who the Leaf paid 11.634m a year for the next 5 years. Dubas created this false market for Marner. He wants to be paid a similar amount and I can not blame him as he sees himself as just as important and I agree with him.

 

[CDN24]

I don't think people realize just how awesome 4 1st round picks can be.

They will not all be top 10 picks. Any team that acquires Marner gets instantly better, there will be no tanking as long as their 1st round picks are gone. Look at the first round picks of a middle of the pack team like Dallas since 2000 and find 4 consecutive ones that are worth a Marner. Other than that 3rd OA in 2017 there is hard to find 4 in a row worth a Marner.

2000 Steeve ott (25th)
2001 Jason bacashihua 26th
2002 Martin vagner 26th
2003 no pick
2004 mark fistric 28
2005 matt niskannen 28
2006 Ivan vishnevskiy 27
2007/2008 no pick
2009 Scott Glennie 8th
2010 jack campbell 11th
2011 jamie oleksiak 14th
2012 Radek Faksa 13th
2013 valeri nichuskin 10th
2014 julis Honka 14th
2015 denis Gurianov 12th
2016 Riley Tufte 25th
2017 miro heiskanen 3rd
2018 ty dellandrea 13th

 

[kb]

The lack of reading comprehension is all yours. As I replied to a post claiming Marner made 5 million in endorsements money last year. No one but his family and agent knows how much he made. Sorry but I doubt you are not likely in his family nor his agent. Adding up numbers that you have no idea about is about the stupidest thing I have read on here ever and that is saying something.

His endorsement money has nothing to do with his contract negotiations at all so why is it an issue. He has our produced Mathews who the Leaf paid 11.634m a year for the next 5 years. Dubas created this false market for Marner. He wants to be paid a similar amount and I can not blame him as he sees himself as just as important and I agree with him.

Outproduced Matthews????? By what measure......total points when paying 30 more games??

Or maybe its him playing with all-stars?