Salary Cap: Marner contract signing watch discussion.

[DopeyFish]

Leafs getting their core signed up before Seattle and new TV deal is quite optimal.

Also stop trying to trade Nylander because he's a very important piece.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Exactly this.

4 first rounders and $10+ million to spend in numerous other ways just might actually give the team the breathing room and roster flexibility it needs.

I guess that's why I'm not as spooked by Marner's perceived "leverage" that some posters feel he has.

The Leafs should firmly stand their ground and keep their offer in the single digits.

If he potted 40+ goals, this might be a different conversation.

Don't get me wrong, I like him a lot. He's a great talent and brings much to the table, and I'd like him to be in Toronto, but, just as in baseball the HR hitters make the biggest coin, goal scorers and Cup winners, especially at centre; make the green in the NHL.

If they paid Marner $9.5M a year, he should be dancing with joy and work hard to help this team win a Cup.

 

[Advanced stats]

To anyone worried about Marner getting an offer, I say don't. In fact, rejoice. If someone wants to give me 4 first rounders, I'm willing to part with a number of players.

I really think you're overvaluing draft picks, especially considering they'll be poor first round picks

Do you know what picks in the 20-31st OA spot get you? A great big pile of meh/tweeners/'developing and busted players.

You really can't count on those picks for anything much, considering they'll need development and they won't likely be anything special in the first place. This is of course assuming that they're all 20-31 picks.(which is probably fair.)

Absolutely flexibility and cap space is fantastic, a big big bonus.
Personally though, I'd rather use that cap space on a player with 100 point potential, even if it means we're jammed right up against the cap for a season or 2.
Cap space and flexibility is meaningless unless you use it.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Guess what all the recent cup winners and great teams have?

Two great centers and great center depth.
Pittsburgh
Washington
Chicago
Tampa
San Jose


Thank goodness we follow that model.

But as the previous post showed, the leafs spent a higher cap percentage on their two than any other team ever.

Do you really think the MAtthews Tavares tandem deserves a higher cap percentage than Malkin/Crosby in their primes?

Then leafs are getting hosed in these contracts, and you should be far more concerned.

The fact that the leafs sucked in the past with shitty centres doesn’t excuse the dramatic overpayments of our current centres.

 

[18leafsfan18]

But as the previous post showed, the leafs spent a higher cap percentage on their two than any other team ever.

Do you really think the MAtthews Tavares tandem deserves a higher cap percentage than Malkin/Crosby in their primes?

Then leafs are getting hosed in these contracts, and you should be far more concerned.

The fact that the leafs sucked in the past with ****ty centres doesn’t excuse the dramatic overpayments of our current centres.

Crosby's contract should not be compared to the ones signed by Matthews and Tavares.

The contract he signed is not allowed under the new CBA. It circumvented the cap, this is a perfect example of a contract that forced them to add the new rules to the CBA.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

But as the previous post showed, the leafs spent a higher cap percentage on their two than any other team ever.

Do you really think the MAtthews Tavares tandem deserves a higher cap percentage than Malkin/Crosby in their primes?

Then leafs are getting hosed in these contracts, and you should be far more concerned.

The fact that the leafs sucked in the past with ****ty centres doesn’t excuse the dramatic overpayments of our current centres.

That is spilled milk. It is over and done with now. Dubie needs to figure out a plan how to jetison Marleau and Z. and use Kappy/AJ as bait. We are where we are like it or not. I don't like it either but it is in the past now.

 

[Leafsfan74]

I really think you're overvaluing draft picks, especially considering they'll be poor first round picks

Do you know what picks in the 20-31st OA spot get you? A great big pile of meh/tweeners/'developing and busted players.

You really can't count on those picks for anything much, considering they'll need development and they won't likely be anything special in the first place. This is of course assuming that they're all 20-31 picks.(which is probably fair.)

Absolutely flexibility and cap space is fantastic, a big big bonus.
Personally though, I'd rather use that cap space on a player with 100 point potential, even if it means we're jammed right up against the cap for a season or 2.
Cap space and flexibility is meaningless unless you use it.

Unlike Nylander who I thought Leafs should have flipped two weeks after he sat out, I would prefer Leafs sign Marner. I really like him as a player and he seems to be a good guy off the ice.

However, these players are too young to appreciate that they need to take some control of their career. He can't just say "talk to my agent", which not be the worse advice, however, IF he really wants to stay in Toronto, he has to exercise some say with his agent. It's a guarantee that his agent. who is paid on commission is going to take a cut throat, "best deal at all costs" approach. Now, I say all players should get what they are worth. One must also understands the realities of the cap.

He can shrug and say "that's not my problem", fair enough. However, if you take that position his agent MUST tell him, "there's a chance us trying to squeeze them to _____ figure, means you are traded, and or, moved when a sheet comes from another team". It's the agents fiduciary duty to explain "is this what you want, or , you prefer ______ amount to remain a Leafs for 5,6,7 years?

We'd all love to have that problem of deciding between a deal for tens of millions of dollars, and it wont even be your last deal. I can't say I'd be able to deal with it at his age, in fact, I know I wouldn't. However, I WOULD know where I'd want to work and play with, and that the small change which I would more than make up for in endorsements anyways, wouldn't drive me to another team which I wouldn't be as happy playing on.

They are young, having fun and making bank, at least do it in a place you love. That's some experience I can share with them from a much bigger fish bowl.

 

[hockeywiz542]

TSN hockey insider Bob McKenzie joins Leafs Lunch to discuss why he thinks the Leafs took a step forward this year, how much the Leafs can afford to pay Mitch Marner and how he thinks Kyle Dubas did in his first season as rookie GM.

https://post.futurimedia.com/chumam/playlist/25/14978.m4a

HC insider Doug MacLean joins the Starting Lineup to speculate on the best case scenario on a Maple Leafs contract with Mitch Marner.

 

[Blueboy]

There is no reason for him to be signed for more than either Stone or Kucherov. I hate how this has spun into something more.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Crosby's contract should not be compared to the ones signed by Matthews and Tavares.

The contract he signed is not allowed under the new CBA. It circumvented the cap, this is a perfect example of a contract that forced them to add the new rules to the CBA.

So the leafs pay more than anybody else (as usual), and instead of criticizing the gm, it’s just more excuses.

 

[4thline]

Exactly this.

4 first rounders and $10+ million to spend in numerous other ways just might actually give the team the breathing room and roster flexibility it needs.

I guess that's why I'm not as spooked by Marner's perceived "leverage" that some posters feel he has.

The Leafs should firmly stand their ground and keep their offer in the single digits.

I agree with standing ground, but IMO your assessment of where is off.

Say we're standing ground at Kucherov, 9.5x8

There is significant risk that someone comes in at ~10x4 or 5 which would force us into a choice of the ~10 cap hit at a term that expires with or before Matthews/Nylander and with JT still on the books OR losing a superstar for 1st+1st+2nd+3rd.

Both of those choices are worse than a 10.5 x 6-7years IMO.

 

[Advanced stats]

Do you really think the MAtthews Tavares tandem deserves a higher cap percentage than Malkin/Crosby in their primes?

Not only are you ignorant, you're also just plain wrong.

Malkin and Crosby early in their contracts as dominant, and in their prime made nearly 31% of the penguins cap hit.

Matthews and tavares, going into next season will make just over 27% of Toronto's cap percentage.(assuming 83m cap)

That seems decent considering Crosby and Malkin is certainly a better duo, but at least comparable.

Finally Toronto is building a contender, and doing a good job.

 

[nuck]

How many clubs have the cap space and their own four 1sts for this to happen? It seems unlikely a bottom 9 club would consider it, as McDavid and Draisaitl have proven you need depth to win. Columbus Stl, Winny and SJ are out. Easily add Pittsburgh, Tampa, Calgary and Washington with no cap space. Maybe 15 possible suitors and of those maybe 5 have an internal salary cap where they just wouldn't. 3 or 4 more teams run by old boys sticking to the code so maybe 1/2 dozen players at most? Its possible but it does seem like the boogie man as to announce would be tampering and to throw hints to a reporter might just be to screw with the Leafs. If you thought you might, maybe you leak it so players hold off signing to see if they get approached,

 

[thewave]

There is no reason for him to be signed for more than either Stone or Kucherov. I hate how this has spun into something more.

The cap has gone up, MM looks like he is trending up up up! How can you give him Kucherov money? If Matthews got 11.6m x 5y, MM is worth at least 9.5-10 x 5y

 

[Leafsfan74]

I agree with standing ground, but IMO your assessment of where is off.

Say we're standing ground at Kucherov, 9.5x8

There is significant risk that someone comes in at ~10x4 or 5 which would force us into a choice of the ~10 cap hit at a term that expires with or before Matthews/Nylander and with JT still on the books OR losing a superstar for 1st+1st+2nd+3rd.

Both of those choices are worse than a 10.5 x 6-7years IMO.

That's why the GM makes the big bucks. As it were, as I said, if someone wants to pay him $10M+ a year and Marner wants that instead of the Leafs offer, I say "best of luck to you" and take the four first rounders.

That's just me, and I'm a long suffering Leafs fan. This playoffs should serve notice, you don't win if you have the best couple of players on either team, you win as a team, all pulling together and sacrificing. That said, I can't lie, I would happily take 4 first rounders, possibly for anybody on this team.

There is a cap and you need to put together a full team. If not from existing development within (the preferred method), than, from picking up players from elsewhere.

 

[Advanced stats]

Unlike Nylander who I thought Leafs should have flipped two weeks after he sat out, I would prefer Leafs sign Marner. I really like him as a player and he seems to be a good guy off the ice.

However, these players are too young to appreciate that they need to take some control of their career. He can't just say "talk to my agent", which not be the worse advice, however, IF he really wants to stay in Toronto, he has to exercise some say with his agent. It's a guarantee that his agent. who is paid on commission is going to take a cut throat, "best deal at all costs" approach. Now, I say all players should get what they are worth. One must also understands the realities of the cap.

He can shrug and say "that's not my problem", fair enough. However, if you take that position his agent MUST tell him, "there's a chance us trying to squeeze them to _____ figure, means you are traded, and or, moved when a sheet comes from another team". It's the agents fiduciary duty to explain "is this what you want, or , you prefer ______ amount to remain a Leafs for 5,6,7 years?

We'd all love to have that problem of deciding between a deal for tens of millions of dollars, and it wont even be your last deal. I can't say I'd be able to deal with it at his age, in fact, I know I wouldn't. However, I WOULD know where I'd want to work and play with, and that the small change which I would more than make up for in endorsements anyways, wouldn't drive me to another team which I wouldn't be as happy playing on.

They are young, having fun and making bank, at least do it in a place you love. That's some experience I can share with them from a much bigger fish bowl.

Hey man I agree in full. I swear I'd be the same. To me there's literally no difference between 65 million and 85 million. Playing for the right team is just as big a factor for me.



I do have to question though... You think you're in a bigger fish bowl than Mitch Marner?..
.playing for the center of the hockey universe?
...is your name, Trudeau, Matthews or Crosby? LeBron?
How many Instagram followers do you have?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Not only are you ignorant, you're also just plain wrong.

Malkin and Crosby early in their contracts as dominant, and in their prime made nearly 31% of the penguins cap hit.

Matthews and tavares, going into next season will make just over 27% of Toronto's cap percentage.(assuming 83m cap)

That seems decent considering Crosby and Malkin is certainly a better duo, but at least comparable.

Finally Toronto is building a contender, and doing a good job.

Malkin/Crosby were in their primes signing ufa years when they signed their CURRENT contracts, which they’re already six years into and they won two cups during.

It’s a joke that the Matthews/Tavares tandem makes a higher cap percentage than them. A complete and utter f***ing joke.

 

[4thline]

That's why the GM makes the big bucks. As it were, as I said, if someone wants to pay him $10M+ a year and Marner wants that instead of the Leafs offer, I say "best of luck to you" and take the four first rounders.

You didn't read.

There are no four 1st rounders for an offer sheet up to 10.149x 5, it's 1st+1st+2nd+3rd. That's a pittance against a player of his ability.

 

[thewave]

That's why the GM makes the big bucks. As it were, as I said, if someone wants to pay him $10M+ a year and Marner wants that instead of the Leafs offer, I say "best of luck to you" and take the four first rounders.

That's just me, and I'm a long suffering Leafs fan. This playoffs should serve notice, you don't win if you have the best couple of players on either team, you win as a team, all pulling together and sacrificing. That said, I can't lie, I would happily take 4 first rounders, possibly for anybody on this team.

There is a cap and you need to put together a full team. If not from existing development within (the preferred method), than, from picking up players from elsewhere.

I over simplify most things... 4 forwards making 50% cap = bad hockey team. That is unless they have endless awesome cost controlled kids that are PO performers.

 

[Advanced stats]

Malkin/Crosby were in their primes signing ufa years when they signed their CURRENT contracts, which they’re already six years into and they won two cups during.

It’s a joke that the Matthews/Tavares tandem makes a higher cap percentage than them. A complete and utter ****ing joke.

Also in their primes when they signed their original contracts too.
The point still stands.
.....do you actually hate the Tavares contract as well?

 

[Blueboy]

The cap has gone up, MM looks like he is trending up up up! How can you give him Kucherov money? If Matthews got 11.6m x 5y, MM is worth at least 9.5-10 x 5y

Weak argument and I bet Dubas bites. Stone is a better player right now and signed 9.5 over 8 all UFA years with knowledge of the cap rising.

Let him sign an offersheet if he wants 10. Take the 4 1sts and sign Panarin at 10mil per. I don’t care if he’s a Toronto kid and plays with heart.

 

[4thline]

Malkin/Crosby were in their primes signing ufa years when they signed their CURRENT contracts, which they’re already six years into and they won two cups during.

It’s a joke that the Matthews/Tavares tandem makes a higher cap percentage than them. A complete and utter ****ing joke.

What's an utter f***ing joke is that you can't understand the pretty simple concept of the last CBA's back diving deals being tantamount to paying players under the table. Sidney Crosby made more than 65 million dollars over those 6 years, and won't make less than 9 for another 3. It is absolutely moronic to think that 8.7 million dollars is reflective of his value, and to assume that the stars of today should be willing to play for substantially less money

 

[thewave]

Weak argument and I bet Dubas bites. Stone is a better player right now and signed 9.5 over 8 all UFA years with knowledge of the cap rising.

Let him sign an offersheet if he wants 10. Take the 4 1sts and sign Panarin at 10mil per. I don’t care if he’s a Toronto kid and plays with heart.

UFA means nothing to Dubes. He proved that with the Matthews and Nylander signings.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Hey man I agree in full. I swear I'd be the same. To me there's literally no difference between 65 million and 85 million. Playing for the right team is just as big a factor for me.



I do have to question though... You think you're in a bigger fish bowl than Mitch Marner?..
.playing for the center of the hockey universe?
...is your name, Trudeau, Matthews or Crosby? LeBron?
How many Instagram followers do you have?

Yes, I suppose I meant, he is in a small fishbowl, the eyes of the city and even the world, an athlete in an elite league. I'm just one of many in a big pond that's goes about his business and few care.

 

[thewave]

10m x 5y

Just watch