Salary Cap: Marner contract signing watch discussion.

[Bigmarycombo]

Nylander didn't hold up the rest of the team building, we didn't have the likes of Johnsson, Kapanen and the defense to sort after he signed like Marner

We weren't up against the cap like we will be this off-season where one contract will effect the entire team makeup

Hold up, you realize that Nylander's contract was first in line right? He couldn't force the other two to go first, they had another year on there ECL's to run

Nylander didn't

Don't kid yourself, Matthews is the more valuable player and Marner has every right to fight for every dollar available to him

He just needs to realize that if he does he may get himself shipped out of town, the team can only pay him so much before they cut there losses and go in another direction

I know you love Nylander but I can guarantee you that he will be 100 per cent traded before Marner. If Marner get his 10-11 million
It then becomes do we keep a soft perimeter player for 7 million or take that 7 and pay Johnsson and Kapanen . That will be the decision after Marner is signed.

People use the excuse we would be selling low on silly but
Watch how well nylander does at the world championship. He will dominate again. Big ice surface can utilize his skating and puck possession without having to go near the boards. His value will skyrocket again.

 

[Xanner]

Are you denying that a heavily front loaded contract paid more than half in signing bonuses provides a financial advantage for the player?

Are you really denying that?

If it was equally beneficial for both the team and the player, quite literally EVERY player would have contracts like that. As it is, it’s something the PLAYERS negotiate for, at the price of lowering the aav.

So when we compare Nylanders contract to Pasta, Ehlers, TT, etc, ufa year, front loading, and signing bonuses ARE part of the equation.

I don't think every team has the financial ability to structure contracts the way the leafs can, Bob Mckenzie brought up the other day that Nylander wasn't going to get anything under 6.5 aav so the fact that he got 6.9 means that if Nylander is "overpaid" its by what 400k, is that really something to be all up and arms over?

Specifically with Nylander, the only thing that matters right now is that his actual salary is very favourable for the leafs, did Nylander deserve the type of salary structure? thats subjective imo, i just think the leafs weighed all their options and came to the conclusion that they could benefit signing him this way.

This is his actual salary after the huge signing bonus on July 1.

2019 - 700k
2020 - 6
2021 - 6
2022 - 6
2023 - 6

How is this not reasonable for a 20 goal, 60 point player?

 

[Menzinger]

It appears Marner & Ferris have Dubas over a barrel in negotiations, holding all the cards.

Might as well reach for the stars and shoot for the moon on his ask, or wait him out until you get your deal you want.

Dubas wouldn't have the stomach to trade him, can't afford to have him sit, will likely match any OS, so all Marner and his agent need to do is wait this out as long as it takes.

I think you're under estimating how badly Marner seems to react to bad PR.

I've never seen him more uncomfortable than when he was hounded by the media after Ferris ran his mouth on the radio a couple months ago.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I don't think every team has the financial ability to structure contracts the way the leafs can, Bob Mckenzie brought up the other day that Nylander wasn't going to get anything under 6.5 aav so the fact that he got 6.9 means that if Nylander is "overpaid" its by what 400k, is that really something to be all up and arms over?

Specifically with Nylander, the only thing that matters right now is that his actual salary is very favourable for the leafs, did Nylander deserve the type of salary structure? thats subjective imo, i just think the leafs weighed all their options and came to the conclusion that they could benefit signing him this way.

This is his actual salary after the huge signing bonus on July 1.

2019 - 700k
2020 - 6
2021 - 6
2022 - 6
2023 - 6

How is this not reasonable for a 20 goal, 60 point player?

It shows that Dubas is giving out VERY player friendly contracts. They get the “upper end” of market value, but with a whole bunch of added perks that comparable players don’t get. Those additional perks should be used to get them to the LOWER end of market value.

Dubas should be flexing that financial might (for front loading/signing bonuses) as a tool for lowering aav. Not just giving it for free as a Toronto add on.

Dubas should have gotten Nylander to 7 mil aav BEFORE the additional perks that he piled on. Then he would use those additional perks to compromise with a lower aav.

That’s what would have happened if Dubas was good at his job.

 

[Xanner]

It shows that Dubas is giving out VERY player friendly contracts. They get the “upper end” of market value, but with a whole bunch of added perks that comparable players don’t get. Those additional perks should be used to get them to the LOWER end of market value.

Dubas should be flexing that financial might (for front loading/signing bonuses) as a tool for lowering aav. Not just giving it for free as a Toronto add on.

Dubas should have gotten Nylander to 7 mil aav BEFORE the additional perks that he piled on. Then he would use those additional perks to compromise with a lower aav.

That’s what would have happened if Dubas was good at his job.

I'm pretty sure that Dubas did get the AAV lowered by signing his deal this way on Dec 1, Correct me if i'm wrong but had Nylander signed this deal before the season his AAV would have been 7.5 compared to the 6.9 that it is now.

Look i'm not on the Dubas train, i believe he has made some mistakes but i really don't see a problem here, there are bigger issues, like how the leafs are going to win the cup paying 3 players 10+ mill.

 

[Deebo]

I'm pretty sure that Dubas did get the AAV lowered by signing his deal this way on Dec 1, Correct me if i'm wrong but had Nylander signed this deal before the season his AAV would have been 7.5 compared to the 6.9 that it is now.

It only would be 7.5M AAV if he was actually going to paid 45M over 6 years.

He will be paid ~41.76M over 6 years so the cap hit in all 6 years (including year 1) will be 6.96

 

[Leafsfan74]

I know you love Nylander but I can guarantee you that he will be 100 per cent traded before Marner. If Marner get his 10-11 million
It then becomes do we keep a soft perimeter player for 7 million or take that 7 and pay Johnsson and Kapanen . That will be the decision after Marner is signed.

People use the excuse we would be selling low on silly but
Watch how well nylander does at the world championship. He will dominate again. Big ice surface can utilize his skating and puck possession without having to go near the boards. His value will skyrocket again.

Agreed. I was quite happy to see that Nylander was going to the Worlds. If he says a Leaf, it will help build his confidence and rhythm by going there, if he is to be traded, it will showcase what he can do. I am banking he has a good series, so, I think it will be a win/win.

There are plenty of teams where he could fit in an win a couple of games throughout the year that squeezes them into the playoffs, where, if they didn't have his talent, they might just miss out. Making the playoffs provides vital extra revenue for any team, as we've seen this year, there can be many surprises and big $$$ wins for teams they wouldn't have had.

 

[diceman934]

Identical teams anyways

Lol. One produced at 90 plus point pace the last 35 games including the playoffs but they were identical. Such garbage is still being presented when Marner has removed all doubt by continuing to produce at the same pace leading the Leafs in scoring. How JT is responsible is a joke when he had less points then Marner. That never happen on the island where his line mates out scored him.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Lol. One produced at 90 plus point pace the last 35 games including the playoffs but they were identical. Such garbage is still being presented when Marner has removed all doubt by continuing to produce at the same pace leading the Leafs in scoring. How JT is responsible is a joke when he had less points then Marner. That never happen on the island we’re his line mates out scored him.

Tavares had a 4 point improvement from upgrading Bailey to Marner.
Marner had a 25 point improvement from upgrading Bozak/Kadri to Tavares.

They're both excellent players who fit very well together, but it seems clear to me which one is benefiting most. As for outproducing, the two had equal amount of points at even strength so I'm not sure that argument works either. Are you seriously calling the idea that playing with a franchise center might be a boost for Marner a joke?

 

[Sypher04]

I think Nylander is being criminally underrated in this market due to a bad season, and sour sentiment from his contract holdout, but I think it's obviously fair to say that both Marner and Matthews are well ahead of him. Who knows how Nylander keeps developing though tbh, his potential is sky-high imo

 

[Leafsfan74]

I think Nylander is being criminally underrated in this market due to a bad season, and sour sentiment from his contract holdout, but I think it's obviously fair to say that both Marner and Matthews are well ahead of him. Who knows how Nylander keeps developing though tbh, his potential is sky-high imo

With some of these players it isn't just about performance. He was a holdout who cost the team money with future negotiations. Like Kadri, it's not just the performance that is a problem (I wasn't even concerned about Kadris regular season stats, I just wanted him to play well defensively to shut down the Bruins top line), but selfish decisions that hurt the team.

His holdout forced Dubas to show his hand and that of the team, as being weak. Unwilling to take the hard step of trading an internally beloved player (that they probably over valued based on their loyalty to advanced stats) and literally being 3 minutes away from him being out the year.

So now we see how this impacts negotiations with Marner and before him Matthews. They should get what they are worth, I dont begrudge them, but, other players agents don't want to be "outplayed" by other agents who received great deals for their clients. We witnessed how Marners agent was quite vocal already about a perceived lowball offer. So we can all surmise where this is headed.

Look, nobody should be underpaid. There was a way to do this, sitting out was probably a smart decision in terms of getting money, I don't blame him, I cannot accept a team would give in though. It's a balance between team needs and business. Once he sat out, he was screaming "this is strictly business" and the Leafs should have seen the possible longer term issue of giving in.

I'm not some old school "tough love" kind of guy. I'm just a realist. The Leafs were humming along nicely and he was taking a stand per se. Fine. My response would be once it went over a month, "here is our max offer, we are not interested in nickel and diming you" and tell him honestly, "if you don't accept, we have to entertain trades effectively immediately".

For arguments sake, Leafs probably could get a #2 Dman with some term which fullfills a need, maybe even a decent prospect or depth forward. More importantly though, the message is sent, "nobody is above this team". All the other players understand and at least know, come negotiations, there is a possibility you're sent packing. It probably would have saved this team a couple of million a year between Matthews and Marner if he had been traded. That's my unscientific gut feeling.

 

[The Apologist]

I think Nylander is being criminally underrated in this market due to a bad season, and sour sentiment from his contract holdout, but I think it's obviously fair to say that both Marner and Matthews are well ahead of him. Who knows how Nylander keeps developing though tbh, his potential is sky-high imo

I think it's more a matter of one of them will need to go and Nylander seems to be the preferred target.

 

[diceman934]

Tavares had a 4 point improvement from upgrading Bailey to Marner.
Marner had a 25 point improvement from upgrading Bozak/Kadri to Tavares.

They're both excellent players who fit very well together, but it seems clear to me which one is benefiting most. As for outproducing, the two had equal amount of points at even strength so I'm not sure that argument works either. Are you seriously calling the idea that playing with a franchise center might be a boost for Marner a joke?

No I am saying he produced the exact same level playing with Kadri. Are you seriously ignoring those facts. Marner drives the line. In the playoffs JT attempted to be a one man show not passing the puck attempting to be a one man show. How did that work out for him or his line?

Anyone who watched games this season knows who drove that line. The fact that some want to give the credit to JT shows they either do not understand what they are watching or just want to minimize Marners real value.

 

[ACC1224]

Tavares had a 4 point improvement from upgrading Bailey to Marner.
Marner had a 25 point improvement from upgrading Bozak/Kadri to Tavares.

They're both excellent players who fit very well together, but it seems clear to me which one is benefiting most. As for outproducing, the two had equal amount of points at even strength so I'm not sure that argument works either. Are you seriously calling the idea that playing with a franchise center might be a boost for Marner a joke?

Why does one have to benefit more than the other? I can't imagine anyone honestly thinking Tavares carried Marner or vice versa.
Both excellent players that compliment each other.

 

[mattydamon]

No I am saying he produced the exact same level playing with Kadri. Are you seriously ignoring those facts. Marner drives the line. In the playoffs JT attempted to be a one man show not passing the puck attempting to be a one man show. How did that work out for him or his line?

Anyone who watched games this season knows who drove that line. The fact that some want to give the credit to JT shows they either do not understand what they are watching or just want to minimize Marners real value.

It could also be that you are underrating Tavares and not giving him his due - he has a history of elevating his line mates so let's not act like it's Marner dragging around Tavares' all season.

It's a bit of both for sure but it's disingenuous to give all credit to Marner, amazing as he may be.

 

[Menzinger]

Why does one have to benefit more than the other? I can't imagine anyone honestly thinking Tavares carried Marner or vice versa.
Both excellent players that compliment each other.

You're right, in the sense that both players arent in competition with one another and that they both do thrive off on anothers skill

But under the context of salary negotiations/discussion s you have folks in this thread making claims like hes the best player on the team (this deserving Matthew's money) when there's a fair amount of evidence thavsuggests hes not even the best player on his own line...

 

[ACC1224]

You're right, in the sense that both players arent in competition with one another and that they both do thrive off on anothers skill

But under the context of salary negotiations/discussion s you have folks in this thread making claims like hes the best player on the team (this deserving Matthew's money) when there's a fair amount of evidence thavsuggests hes not even the best player on his own line...

Where he fits depends on the criteria they are using.

 

[diceman934]

It could also be that you are underrating Tavares and not giving him his due - he has a history of elevating his line mates so let's not act like it's Marner dragging around Tavares' all season.

It's a bit of both for sure but it's disingenuous to give all credit to Marner, amazing as he may be.

No what I am saying is that JT did not change the production of Marner and that he was not responsible for his 94 point season as many on here keep saying. The fact Marner produced at the same level the last 35 games of the season before seems to be lost on many. Marner produced the most points no one carried him. JT got his most goals by a long way this year and that is because he could use his best skill shooting. JT would be a 80 plus point center this year with reasonable line mates but not a 48 goal scorer with out Marner.

JT did not hurt Marner production but to say he is the reason for Marners 94 point season is wrong. JT is a great player and I am happy to have him as a Leaf as it has allowed us to have great center depth.

 

[Buds17]

Tavares had a 4 point improvement from upgrading Bailey to Marner.
Marner had a 25 point improvement from upgrading Bozak/Kadri to Tavares.

They're both excellent players who fit very well together, but it seems clear to me which one is benefiting most. As for outproducing, the two had equal amount of points at even strength so I'm not sure that argument works either. Are you seriously calling the idea that playing with a franchise center might be a boost for Marner a joke?

It might have been arguably easier though for Marner to improve upon his point totals because they were lower. Marner also now has the higher single season total. That's to credit Marner and not discredit Tavares, as that could be due to previous team/linemates, situations/utilization, possible changes to the game, centre vs winger, etc. I think the benefit is closer to mutual.

 

[Confucius]

Wonder if there comes a point in time in Dubas mind that it would be better to trade Marner.

Not because he wants to, but its in the best interest of the team and the salary cap going forward based on contract demands.

Or is overpaying and keeping the only option available?

I'd rather have marner than 2 five million dollar players.

 

[Mr Hockey]

Why does one have to benefit more than the other? I can't imagine anyone honestly thinking Tavares carried Marner or vice versa.
Both excellent players that compliment each other.

For some reason, I find it hard to believe Tavares would have scored more than 30 without Marner this season, I must be wrong though, right?

 

[Notsince67]

Tavares had a 4 point improvement from upgrading Bailey to Marner.
Marner had a 25 point improvement from upgrading Bozak/Kadri to Tavares.

They're both excellent players who fit very well together, but it seems clear to me which one is benefiting most. As for outproducing, the two had equal amount of points at even strength so I'm not sure that argument works either. Are you seriously calling the idea that playing with a franchise center might be a boost for Marner a joke?

Such utter hogwash. Anyone who has watch Tavares this year understands he now plays a much higher level of 2 way hockey. The islanders system was completely run and gun. Tavares was a + 19 this year on the most difficult line. This line of argument is totally beneath you.

 

[diceman934]

Where he fits depends on the criteria they are using.

He is the Leafs best player. Let’s be honest here. Marner carried the team for most of the season and he played a huge role. On the pp and pk while playing against the leagues best players all year. Mathews got more favourable matchups and despite this did not score more points per game then Marner nor did his linemate pwho did not play on the pk thus having more energy for 5on5 play. If Marner was not playing on the pk he would have had more points. He was worn down by seasons end playing hard minutes on a bad pk. Marners pk minutes increased when we traded away a pk player that Babs used a lot to Winnipeg for Petan.

 

[Notsince67]

Lol. One produced at 90 plus point pace the last 35 games including the playoffs but they were identical. Such garbage is still being presented when Marner has removed all doubt by continuing to produce at the same pace leading the Leafs in scoring. How JT is responsible is a joke when he had less points then Marner. That never happen on the island where his line mates out scored him.

Yeah. I'm getting that there are a few here that constantly try to diminish Marner. The kid had a good year and I will laugh even harder next year when he outperforms this one.

 

[Gabriel426]

I think Nylander is being criminally underrated in this market due to a bad season, and sour sentiment from his contract holdout, but I think it's obviously fair to say that both Marner and Matthews are well ahead of him. Who knows how Nylander keeps developing though tbh, his potential is sky-high imo

In this market, unless you are on a 2mil contract and getting over 50pts, you are always going to be overpaid.