Salary Cap: Marner contract signing watch discussion.

[Notsince67]

Marner only outpointed Matthews last year if you completely ignore the fact that he played 20 games more than Auston did.

2017/18:
Matthews - 1.02 P/GP; 3.36 P/60
Marner - 0.84 P/GP; 3.08 P/60

I loves me some Marner, but he didn't truly outproduce Matthews until he played with Tavares, during the same season that Matthews played with two rookies.

He out pointed when he moved to kadris line. Actually by quite a bit

 

[Notsince67]

What about losing his matchup? Also Pull up the stats. IIRC -4, 3 shots in last 4 games, abysmal PK, pathetic PP QB, etc.

You should have watched the games

 

[18leafsfan18]

That’s what Dubas did with Nylander. He signed them in the wrong order.

It should have been importance to the team.

Matthews signed first
Marner signed next
Nylander signed next

Dubas went about it ass backwards.he let Nylander dictate the deal and when the other two saw that he didn’t take one for the team then why should they.

The leafs already screwed Marner by telling him they don’t give out bonuses and then signing Matthews to all his bonuses.

Mitch will get paid because he has improved every year.

Nylander and Matthews got paid for what they hope they will become.

Nylander would have got more if that was the case, and you would have had to convince 2 players to sign a year before their contracts are over.

If Matthews got 11-11.5
Marner got 8.5-9.5

Nylander would had wanted close to Marner money, they had almost identical seasons the 2 years before.

 

[DarkKnight]

bud, what's your point here, its silly and Sparks is done as a Leaf ... lol

my point is Marner is going to ask for and get 11 AAV ... don't bring up outdated contracts into this, Marner and his agents will just laugh them off, like Willie, Matthews did ...

Actually, as insane as it is on a merit basis, the Leafs may need the cheapest backup option possible to offset the cap crunch. It would be a symbol of our failure. He should never see a NHL ice surface again, and yet....

 

[Notsince67]

Nylander would have got more if that was the case, and you would have had to convince 2 players to sign a year before their contracts are over.

If Matthews got 11-11.5
Marner got 8.5-9.5

Nylander would had wanted close to Marner money, they had almost identical seasons the 2 years before.

Identical teams anyways

 

[18leafsfan18]

Identical teams anyways

I don't know what you mean ?

Like the combined cap hits would be the same anyway ?

 

[Deebo]

Matthews are worth more then Marner. You may like Marner more, but thats another thing. Feels lika many think Marner made Tavares better, but not the otherway around.

Marner will try to get what he think he can get, and thats ok.

IT was probably mutually beneficial.

 

[Deebo]

I bet (hope) there's going to be a cabal of teams (and NHLPA members) pushing for tax relief of some form on the salary cap in the next CBA. The Leafs' cap in function is considerably smaller than teams like Tampa and Dallas.

The NHL doesn't care about that. The Leafs will generate revenues regardless of how good they are, they only want to put rules in place to help the teams that can't generate revenue.

Some markets get advantages due to climate, lifestyle or taxes... those are ok. But an advantage because of a large loyal fanbase, can't have that.

 

[Mess]

It appears Marner & Ferris have Dubas over a barrel in negotiations, holding all the cards.

Might as well reach for the stars and shoot for the moon on his ask, or wait him out until you get your deal you want.

Dubas wouldn't have the stomach to trade him, can't afford to have him sit, will likely match any OS, so all Marner and his agent need to do is wait this out as long as it takes.

 

[ZEBROA]

IT was probably mutually beneficial.

Yeah i dont think any of them would do this good without the other. Put any of them between Marleau and Brown and the point harvest probably would look a wee bit different. We should just be happy they got that thing going. Now i hope for some Matthews Nylander thing next year. Maby with kadri as the Hyman?(i would just like to se them top the lines a bit) The experts will solve the caphit, not for us to worrie about. Everything will be allright.

 

[Deebo]

It appears Marner & Ferris have Dubas over a barrel in negotiations, holding all the cards.

Might as well reach for the stars and shoot for the moon on his ask, or wait him out until you get your deal you want.

Dubas wouldn't have the stomach to trade him, can't afford to have him sit, will likely match any OS, so all Marner and his agent need to do is wait this out as long as it takes.

This is Dubas we are talking about, not Lou, who got schooled by representation for a 35+ below average 3rd liner and a 1st year 24 year old #4 d-man. He also gave into demands from Bergevin and Yzerman to give up 2nd rounders for 4th line rentals.

Dubas waited out Nylander and got him for the number the team wanted, Lou gives other GMs and players whatever they want, for depth pieces.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

This is Dubas we are talking about, not Lou, who got schooled by representation for a 35+ below average 3rd liner and a 1st year 24 year old #4 d-man. He also gave into demands from Bergevin and Yzerman to give up 2nd rounders for 4th line rentals.

Dubas waited out Nylander and got him for the number the team wanted, Lou gives other GMs and players whatever they want, for depth pieces.

The leafs wanted Nylander at 7 mil aav?

This is a joke, right?

 

[Fakejake51]

This is Dubas we are talking about, not Lou, who got schooled by representation for a 35+ below average 3rd liner and a 1st year 24 year old #4 d-man. He also gave into demands from Bergevin and Yzerman to give up 2nd rounders for 4th line rentals.

Dubas waited out Nylander and got him for the number the team wanted, Lou gives other GMs and players whatever they want, for depth pieces.

Couldn’t be more wrong

 

[Nithoniniel]

This is Dubas we are talking about, not Lou, who got schooled by representation for a 35+ below average 3rd liner and a 1st year 24 year old #4 d-man. He also gave into demands from Bergevin and Yzerman to give up 2nd rounders for 4th line rentals.

Dubas waited out Nylander and got him for the number the team wanted, Lou gives other GMs and players whatever they want, for depth pieces.

Agree on the first paragraph, disagree on the second. From what I've heard, Nylander would have been signed before season started if they had offered him the $7M over 6 years deal at that point. It's an average contract that both parties could be fine with. Dubas tried to make him come in at significantly lower than that, failed, and the cost was a pretty ruined season for Willy. Nothing wrong with the contract, but the way it was handled has to go down as a fail for him.

Overall, he's had a good start as Leafs GM though.

 

[darrylsittler27]

The good news is the Cdn economy is now in big trouble. With $2/L and inflation coming big time we may actually start to see some empty seats next year. Toronto needs to start trading expensive skill for cheaper grit and character players plus picks. We can't afford all of them cap wise and some are passengers or reg season players. On top of that we need to replenish our prospect pool again. We kept JVR and Gardiner for nothing while giving up picks. No change will equal the same result. Kadri gets suspended once, no change. Kadri gets suspended twice. Having a decent reg season then losing first round does nothing.

 

[Deebo]

Couldn’t be more wrong

What was wrong?

Lou didn't give 6.25M to Marleau for 3 years on a 35+ contract with an NMC?
Lou didn't give 4.5M to Zaitsev for 7 years after 1 year in the NHL?
Lou didn't trade a 2nd rounder for Boyle?
Lou didn't trade a 2nd rounder for Plekanec?

Lou didn't cave into the demands of Marleau, Zaitsev, Yzerman and Plekanec when he easily could have just not made those foolish deals?

Dubas didn't wait Nylander out and end up getting him for 7M when reports indicated he was asking for 8.5?
Nylander didn't call at the last minute and take the deal that was on the table?

Seems like Lou is the one that doesn't have the stomach to say "No" when demands are unreasonable.

 

[Mess]

I bet (hope) there's going to be a cabal of teams (and NHLPA members) pushing for tax relief of some form on the salary cap in the next CBA. The Leafs' cap in function is considerably smaller than teams like Tampa and Dallas.

Leafs advantage is big market team with endless money and the ability to front load and payout signing bonuses and structure contracts to their own and players liking. Small market teams, budget teams and non traditional hockey markets have to use other tools like state tax breaks to their advantage to lure and sign players.

The downside of being rich like Toronto is that players that want to sign deals with Leafs like Marner, Matthews, Tavares etc know Leafs have the ability to pay more than other markets and have a real desire to freely spend in hopes of winning..

That is why Leafs players and their agents don't use market comparable players of small market teams or tax break states as their comparables, they simply use the Toronto market and Leafs depth chart and where they see their player ranking and getting paid accordingly. JT signing set the Leafs market at $11 mil now Auston argued and won and said I'm better and younger and deserve more than Johnny, and now Mitch is up and he too is using his teammates and where he fits on the depth chart as his negotiating position.

It wouldn't even likely matter if the NHL CBA tax adjusted the Toronto market, the players would still ask for top $$, and if it wasn't tax breaks they would simply argue cost of living is higher in TO than TB or Dallas. Try and buy a similar house in TO, TB or Dallas and you would see what I mean.

ie If Marner took the Kucherov deal, and the CBA adjusted for taxes for players that both took home identical net pay, then Mitch buying his house in Toronto for $1 mil and Kucherov getting the same home for $500k in TB, would say he needs more take home money to offset that, and so on and so forth ..

 

[Deebo]

Agree on the first paragraph, disagree on the second. From what I've heard, Nylander would have been signed before season started if they had offered him the $7M over 6 years deal at that point. It's an average contract that both parties could be fine with. Dubas tried to make him come in at significantly lower than that, failed, and the cost was a pretty ruined season for Willy. Nothing wrong with the contract, but the way it was handled has to go down as a fail for him.

Overall, he's had a good start as Leafs GM though.

Fair enough, if those reports are true, I hadn't heard anything other than Nylander was looking for Draisatil money.

 

[18leafsfan18]

I see a ton of "I heard" and "Reports say" on here when posters try to argue their point.

I have literally seen it both ways with Nylander.

Posters who hate the contract and how it all went say "reports said he would have taken 7 at the start of the year".

Posters who like the contract say "reports show he wanted 8 - 8.5 at the start of the year".

I have used the same arguments (about him wanting 8-8.5) but if both things were reported, doesn't it mean that the reporters and insiders might just be pulling this crap out of nowhere ?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

The good news is the Cdn economy is now in big trouble. With $2/L and inflation coming big time we may actually start to see some empty seats next year. Toronto needs to start trading expensive skill for cheaper grit and character players plus picks. We can't afford all of them cap wise and some are passengers or reg season players. On top of that we need to replenish our prospect pool again. We kept JVR and Gardiner for nothing while giving up picks. No change will equal the same result. Kadri gets suspended once, no change. Kadri gets suspended twice. Having a decent reg season then losing first round does nothing.

But is does not affect Leaf fans game 6 I was offered $800 per seat for my 2nd row upper deck seats behind net. Scalper said he could get 1,000 for them and then said he sold for 3,000 each lower bowl row 10 behind bench. When that kinda stuff is occurring from street people outside Scotia I can't see any issues next season. The Leafs are insulated from any economic issue because hockey is a religion here. And in terms of prospects we have best minor league team with 4-5 guys who could play on Leafs next season. By any account we have drafted well.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

What was wrong?

Lou didn't give 6.25M to Marleau for 3 years on a 35+ contract with an NMC?
Lou didn't give 4.5M to Zaitsev for 7 years after 1 year in the NHL?
Lou didn't trade a 2nd rounder for Boyle?
Lou didn't trade a 2nd rounder for Plekanec?

Lou didn't cave into the demands of Marleau, Zaitsev, Yzerman and Plekanec when he easily could have just not made those foolish deals?

Dubas didn't wait Nylander out and end up getting him for 7M when reports indicated he was asking for 8.5?
Nylander didn't call at the last minute and take the deal that was on the table?

Seems like Lou is the one that doesn't have the stomach to say "No" when demands are unreasonable.

Nylander called at the last minute and said "let's make a deal" and they met in the middle. 7 mil wasn't anywhere near "the number the leafs wanted."
Nylanders team having an outrageous opening bid doesn't have anything to do with determining what fair market value was. Nylander was dramatically overpaid.
The contracts of every "comparable" we've seen had more than one ufa year locked up. Nylanders contract is so front loaded that he gets almost half his $42 million in the first SEVEN MONTHS of his contract. He gets more than half of his contract in signing bonuses. These are all perks for the PLAYER and are supposed to result in lowering the aav.
His comparables had little frontloading and in signing bonuses (Ehlers and TT both have NONE on both accounts).

Nylander has a grossly overpaid contract. The likes of which only a rookie gm would hand out.
This is all a disaster. A flat out DISASTER!!!

 

[Xanner]

Nylander called at the last minute and said "let's make a deal" and they met in the middle. 7 mil wasn't anywhere near "the number the leafs wanted."
Nylanders team having an outrageous opening bid doesn't have anything to do with determining what fair market value was. Nylander was dramatically overpaid.
The contracts of every "comparable" we've seen had more than one ufa year locked up. Nylanders contract is so front loaded that he gets almost half his $42 million in the first SEVEN MONTHS of his contract. He gets more than half of his contract in signing bonuses. These are all perks for the PLAYER and are supposed to result in lowering the aav.
His comparables had little frontloading and in signing bonuses (Ehlers and TT both have NONE on both accounts).

Nylander has a grossly overpaid contract. The likes of which only a rookie gm would hand out.
This is all a disaster. A flat out DISASTER!!!

Who cares if Nylander's money is front loaded you really need to get past that, many teams around different leagues front load contracts to benefit the teams flexibility in future years, moving forward nylander's contract is reasonable, this upcoming season after the leafs pay the signing bonus his salary for the year is 700k (a benefit for any team who wants to acquire him via trade) and the following 4 years his actual salary is 6 mill, teams care more about what the actual salary is rather then the cap hit and the cap hit isn't that bad so i strongly disagree that Nylander is grossly overpaid.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Who cares if Nylander's money is front loaded you really need to get past that, many teams around different leagues front load contracts to benefit the teams flexibility in future years, moving forward nylander's contract is reasonable, this upcoming season after the leafs pay the signing bonus his salary for the year is 700k (a benefit for any team who wants to acquire him via trade) and the following 4 years his actual salary is 6 mill, teams care more about what the actual salary is rather then the cap hit and the cap hit isn't that bad so i strongly disagree that Nylander is grossly overpaid.

$7 mil is already overpaid for a proven 20 goal/60 point player.
Add in one ufa year compared to 2-3 for all his comparables and it’s now heavily overpaid. Add in it being one of the most front loaded contracts in nhl history and it’s grossly overpaid. Add in that more than half is in signing bonuses and it’s now outrageously overpaid.

Money isn’t the only part of a contract. It’s the PLAYERS who seek the front loading/signing bonuses contracts. If it was mutually beneficial, then EVERY player would have it. But it’s not. It’s something the PLAYERS seek, and it’s supposed to be at the cost of lowering the aav.

Dubas has done a HORRIBLE job on these contracts.

 

[Xanner]

$7 mil is already overpaid for a proven 20 goal/60 point player.
Add in one ufa year compared to 2-3 for all his comparables and it’s now heavily overpaid. Add in it being one of the most front loaded contracts in nhl history and it’s grossly overpaid. Add in that more than half is in signing bonuses and it’s now outrageously overpaid.

Money isn’t the only part of a contract. It’s the PLAYERS who seek the front loading/signing bonuses contracts. If it was mutually beneficial, then EVERY player would have it. But it’s not. It’s something the PLAYERS seek, and it’s supposed to be at the cost of lowering the aav.

Dubas has done a HORRIBLE job on these contracts.

Again, Nylander's salary this coming season is 700k after the bonuses are paid, plus 6 mill per for the remaining years, nylander cap hit being close to 7 mill means nothing when the actual salary is 6 mill, any team whether its toronto or some other team will navigate and work with that easily.

Right now it doesn't matter what he was paid yesterday the only thing that matters is what he is being paid tomorrow.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Again, Nylander's salary this coming season is 700k after the bonuses are paid, plus 6 mill per for the remaining years, nylander cap hit being close to 7 mill means nothing when the actual salary is 6 mill, any team whether its toronto or some other team will navigate and work with that easily.

Right now it doesn't matter what he was paid yesterday the only thing that matters is what he is being paid tomorrow.

Are you denying that a heavily front loaded contract paid more than half in signing bonuses provides a financial advantage for the player?

Are you really denying that?

If it was equally beneficial for both the team and the player, quite literally EVERY player would have contracts like that. As it is, it’s something the PLAYERS negotiate for, at the price of lowering the aav.

So when we compare Nylanders contract to Pasta, Ehlers, TT, etc, ufa year, front loading, and signing bonuses ARE part of the equation.