Salary Cap: Marner contract signing watch discussion.

[socko]

If overpaying players is the problem, you should be happy if he lets Marner leave rather than overpay him

or they could just hire a competent GM. That would be my preference.

 

[18leafsfan18]

I’m not saying Tavares is the sole reason we lost round 1. I view it more as he was supposed to be the cherry on top and push us to round 2, as we had already lost in game 7 to Boston last year. Why else would we give him that deal.

It’s not like he had 5 goals and was a beast and we still lost. He had 1 non empty net goal in a 7 game series. It wasn’t good enough.

We can argue back and forth but ultimately your right he didn't get enough points.

I think a big part of that was him being glued to Bergeron (Due to Babcock line matching) but in the end it doesn't really matter why I guess.

 

[Legion34]

Then he can sign a deal valued appropriately. Leafs are the only team to pay guys for what their potential is rather than their current ability.

In 5 years Matthews will ask for an even bigger contract or walk.

really? Eichel was worth 13.5 percent of the cap with a career high of what? 57 points?
Draistl's contract was universally panned.

Revisionist history

Weren't you the guy who posted about matthews like legit every day on the mainboards for about 2 years

 

[Throw More Waffles]

That Tavares from age 28 to 34 is worth more than Matthews from 22 to 27. Or that paying Tavares for his 32-34 year old seasons actually makes the contract better. You really couldn't be more wrong, and I'm not sure what gives you that impression

I mean... I can understand someone who’s followed the nhl for a week or two not understanding that ufa’s have always made more than rfa’s.

But to see someone with 30k posts on a hockey forum not understand that is baffling. Baffling!

 

[Legion34]

Because you are ignoring every factor and nailing a single point. JT was paid based on his ability the day it was signed. He had the ability to negotiate with multiple teams at once.

Matthews should be paid based on being a RFA and not having any leverage, including arbitration. He should be paid like every other RFA in history, which is less than a UFA.

How about you explain why the concept of RFA and UFA only doesn't apply to the Leafs? Are you expecting Rielly to take less on his next deal because it will pay him into his 30's? How about Andersen?

I know you understand hockey better than this so the fact you choose to play dumb and pretend to not understand how every single contract has been negotiated since the cap came in is frustrating.

This is the thing though. The landscape is changing. Teams aren't paying as much for what players have done.... Teams aren't handing out longterm deals to player's in their 30s

You do realize that Matthews and Schmaltz or whoever are the ONLY RFA's to sign this year...... Maybe all of the other teams will end up paying more than you think they should.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I mean... I can understand someone who’s followed the nhl for a week or two not understanding that ufa’s have always made more than rfa’s.

But to see someone with 30k posts on a hockey forum not understand that is baffling. Baffling!

historically yeah, but it's changing around the league. It doesn't really make sense to value a declining Tavares over a prime Matthews

 

[Notsince67]

I love Mitch Marner, and I'm not surprised exactly that his camp would want to use Matthews as the comparable given his pay, but there's really nothing comparable about them as players.

Yeah. Other than being very similar in points per game, Marner has been the points leader for 2 years, plays the PK and shows the higher YOY improvement. Marner also has higher career playoff points. Had Marner played with better QoT for the two year prior, it would be a slam dunk that that the differences would even be larger

 

[diceman934]

Sparks is under contract next season, he's got a good shot at being in camp next season

Your thinking like a fan with a major bias towards a player, Marner is a fine player but he's not the best player on the roster and there's a limit to what you can do to fit him in if he won't sign something acceptable

Tavares, Matthews, Rielly
Those guys are the guys you build your team around, everybody else needs to fit in and if Marner won't accept something realistic like 10M×7 he should go on the block, let's see how keen the Toronto boy is to stick around

Pricing himself off the team is eminently possible if he wants to go that route, that's his decision

Spark under contract means little. He will not be at the Leafs camp. If he is it only because Dubas is hoping he can get something for him. I can not see him at camp.

You build around your best players and Mitch has been the Leafs best player for a year and a half.

I am not a fan of a player only but a Leaf fan and you do not trade or not sign a franchise player and that is what Mitch is.
Mathews is a great goal scorer but struggled this year defensively and his point production dropped when the pp was not as successful.
JT just scored more goals then he ever has playing with Marner. Kadri the year before had a fantastic finish to his season playing with Marner as did Marleau who plays the exact same way this year the only difference was that he had 35 games with Marner. Same way JVR has his best goal scoring season with Marner. He makes plays around him better always has. You sign him and make changes based on the remaining cap space.
This is me speaking as a Leaf fan I am not bais about Marner. Rielly yes I know the young man and was involved in his career.

Marner is the real deal. Name the last 94 point lead playing on his ELC... there is none.

 

[Legion34]

All good.

Just want to take this oppertunity to wish all you guys the best. I am going to be deleting my account later on today, but we've had many years of frustrating times and good times.

Even if we don't agree, many good posters on here. I just can't handle HFboards anymore. It has gotten so toxic that it is negatively impacting my life. I don't feel relaxed anymore when I come here, I get worked up and then get in **** with the mods over questionable **** that goes in a big ol circle.

One thing I will miss is the GDT's. Nothing else like it online. Who knows maybe some day I will come back but we will see.

It's been a slice guys! Love you all and go Leafs!

Honestly, I get that too. It can be too much here. I came at a time when the leafs were rebuilding, and I wanted to learn more about prospects and talk to people watching the minors/juniors. Thats why I came, you can't really learn about junior hockey without it..... Now the future part is gone and its like twitter

Now its mostly a debacle. Everyone just wants to argue and be ridiculous and there are all these camps and ridiculuous negativity. The mods totally allow it and half the leafs board are troll accounts.

Good luck..... I feel like I may be joining you shortly

 

[Bomber0104]

All good.

Just want to take this oppertunity to wish all you guys the best. I am going to be deleting my account later on today, but we've had many years of frustrating times and good times.

Even if we don't agree, many good posters on here. I just can't handle HFboards anymore. It has gotten so toxic that it is negatively impacting my life. I don't feel relaxed anymore when I come here, I get worked up and then get in **** with the mods over questionable **** that goes in a big ol circle.

One thing I will miss is the GDT's. Nothing else like it online. Who knows maybe some day I will come back but we will see.

It's been a slice guys! Love you all and go Leafs!

The off-season is the best time to take a break from this place.

Other than missing out on the annual off-season championship which we usually always win, you're not missing much.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

historically yeah, but it's changing around the league. It doesn't really make sense to value a declining Tavares over a prime Matthews

It actually really bothers me. For 20 years the leafs have lived off of overpaying ufa’s while they had no elite young players (which were very cheap then).

The very moment, the first time in like 20-30 years, that the leafs have utterly elite young players... that’s the VERY year that the market switches to overpaying elite young players.

This team is cursed.

 

[Notsince67]

You're not wrong .. I'd argue that very same if I was Leafs GM.

Kane at $10.5 mil with multiple Cups first or Kucherov @ $9.5 mil X 8 years and putting up 120 points (and all UFA years) should logically be well above Marner's payscale.

That is not how I think its going to work however unfortunately. I think Marner is getting more than Kucherov and less years (where the 1st X 4 years are cost controllable RFA years).

We have seen how the Nylander and Matthews deals went and now that precedence has been set, Marner will use that to his advantage.

The precedent can be reduced if Nylander is traded and Dubas is dismissed. A new GM can claim there is a new sheriff in town and the team is course correcting.

 

[bentharbs]

For some reason I read marner for panarin I guess I was a bit out of it this morning lol

Lol it happens, I thought you were off your rocker!

 

[bentharbs]

Nylander never should have been paid more than $5million. He was on pace for 41 points this year and he's soft as Royale bum wipe.

31/31 GMs would have given Nylander more than 5 million. Hindsight is such perfect vision.

 

[Nineteen67]

He's not better than Matthews. Full stop. But lets not derail into that. I agree there's no way Marner's taking a discount but in your scenario he takes a discount on another team just to spite the Leafs, which is crazy. If Marner moves on its to sign the contract he wants somewhere that can offer it.

No that’s his market value in the rest of the league. With the Leafs his market is 10.5- 11 over 5.

 

[Nineteen67]

Really? Marner is on about 12 ads.... His mom is on one.... The dad is on the radio whenever anyone will listen.... They are clearly involved and want to be a part of all of it too much.... The dad goes on radio saying mitch should be captain. The agent rips matthews deal the second its signed.

They are a nightmare. Hes an amazing hockey player who is not as good or valuable as matthews. We have 2 top C who are top 3 in the league with crosby in getting the most out of nothing linemates.

If mitch has to go... So be it....

We agree...NO discounts for the Leafs.

 

[Mess]

The precedent can be reduced if Nylander is traded and Dubas is dismissed. A new GM can claim there is a new sheriff in town and the team is course correcting.

The changing of GMs option is not going to happen. Dubas is just starting out and he's made his bed, now lie in it.

Shanny turning the keys over to Dubas was all about Kyle taking ownership of the 3 Amigos contracts and determining the price he was willing to pay..

These young players are using their leverage and seasoned agents to get the best deals possible and Dubas has been now proven to cave to those demands in time..

Marner holding out for the deal he wants only gets stronger the more time that passes and the closer to July 1st we get, and vice versa for Dubas who starts feeling the heat of increased leverage after that point.

 

[Notsince67]

The changing of GMs option is not going to happen. Dubas is just starting out and he's made his bed, now lie in it.

Shanny turning the keys over to Dubas was all about Kyle taking ownership of the 3 Amigos contracts and determining the price he was willing to pay..

These young players are using their leverage and seasoned agents to get the best deals possible and Dubas has been now proven to cave to those demands in time..

Marner holding out for the deal he wants only gets stronger the more time that passes and the closer to July 1st we get, and vice versa for Dubas who starts feeling the heat of increased leverage after that point.

This might be true but Shanny has to understand that if the rebuild fails, his ass is going to be on the line.
What happens if Marner is traded or walks via offersheet...overpay Johnsson and Kappy with new found $$ as the next part of the rebuild? Can he be trusted to manage those cap appropriately or will he trade them for some more Petans?

 

[A1LeafNation]

Yes like I can and I will, or I will not set the market. His line in the sand is invisible.

What didn't he do?

Also Nylander doesn't make more than Draisaitl. Matthews doesn't make more than McDavid.

 

[diceman934]

What didn't he do?

Also Nylander doesn't make more than Draisaitl. Matthews doesn't make more than McDavid.

He set the market both got paid 8 year term money on 5 and 6 year deals.

 

[Mess]

This might be true but Shanny has to understand that if the rebuild fails, his ass is going to be on the line.
What happens if Marner is traded or walks via offersheet...overpay Johnsson and Kappy with new found $$ as the next part of the rebuild? Can he be trusted to manage those cap appropriately or will he trade them for some more Petans?

Shananhan has a lot of faith in Dubas and hitched his wagon to a rookie GM during a crucial time when his franchise building block players needed new contracts.

Not something I would have done and I would have handled all 3 the Amigos differently as I suspect Lou Lam would have also.

Dubas is batting 0-2 on the first signings of WN and AM and I fear Marner is going to hit a grand slam home run on his deal.

I'm expecting a deal >= $10 mil and only 5-6 years in length, with the only real comparable to that contract being Auston Matthews as a reference point, based on past precedence.

Dubas will make Marner the highest paid winger in the game, and on the shortest term (leaving the costly UFA purchase years on the cutting room floor)..

 

[Kiwi]

Spark under contract means little. He will not be at the Leafs camp. If he is it only because Dubas is hoping he can get something for him. I can not see him at camp.

You build around your best players and Mitch has been the Leafs best player for a year and a half.

I am not a fan of a player only but a Leaf fan and you do not trade or not sign a franchise player and that is what Mitch is.
Mathews is a great goal scorer but struggled this year defensively and his point production dropped when the pp was not as successful.
JT just scored more goals then he ever has playing with Marner. Kadri the year before had a fantastic finish to his season playing with Marner as did Marleau who plays the exact same way this year the only difference was that he had 35 games with Marner. Same way JVR has his best goal scoring season with Marner. He makes plays around him better always has. You sign him and make changes based on the remaining cap space.
This is me speaking as a Leaf fan I am not bais about Marner. Rielly yes I know the young man and was involved in his career.

Marner is the real deal. Name the last 94 point lead playing on his ELC... there is none.

Sparks is under contract and everybody knows Dubas is a fan, he could certainly get an opportunity in camp even if Babcock thinks he sucks (which is probably the correct read on him)

At no point have I ever said Marner isn't a fantastic player, that doesn't however mean he can't price himself off the team, highly unlikely I'll admit but it's still possible if he's a big enough headache in negotiations and forces managements hand

They need Marner signed so they can work out the cap situation around Kapanen, Johnsson and the entire defensive core, there is a timeline and if Marner slow walks negotiations and fights for every penny management is going to have some tough decisions to make

You can't have one player put you over a barrel so you can't sort the rest of the team out before the season starts, the team is bigger than one extremely important player in this regard

 

[Fogelhund]

Shananhan has a lot of faith in Dubas and hitched his wagon to a rookie GM during a crucial time when his franchise building block players needed new contracts.

Not something I would have done and I would have handled all 3 the Amigos differently as I suspect Lou Lam would have also.

Dubas is batting 0-2 on the first signings of WN and AM and I fear Marner is going to hit a grand slam home run on his deal.

I'm expecting a deal >= $10 mil and only 5-6 years in length, with the only real comparable to that contract being Auston Matthews as a reference point, based on past precedence.

Dubas will make Marner the highest paid winger in the game, and on the shortest term (leaving the costly UFA purchase years on the cutting room floor)..

We shall see... if he overpays Marner too, well, we won't be competing for a cup in all likelihood.

Funny, Tampa fans think that they should be paying Brayden Point less than $7.5 million, he plays a more important position, and has one less point than Marner the past two years combined.

 

[Legion34]

He set the market both got paid 8 year term money on 5 and 6 year deals.

Ummmm you think he set the market on Nylander?

When he ended up exactly in the comparables and with multiple projections?

Matthews. I guess you could argue maybe? He isn’t the market on 5 year deals. Many players for higher percent on 5 year deals.

You could say he set the market for this year. But he is the clear best player out of this crop.

He is his own Market. Goal scoring franchise C.

 

[saffronleaf]

Better be lower than Kucherov, who is clearly the far superior winger.