Salary Cap: Marner contract signing watch discussion.

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hamzarocks

Registered User
Jul 22, 2012
21,228
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Pickering, Ontario
I looked at the avs forum and they seem to think he'll sign for 9 mil long term. Many of them specifically state "our gm isn't Dubas, so it shouldn't be too much".
Once again the leafs are the joke of the league. Didn't take long...
Your confusing what I'm saying. I don't think it will take 11 million to sign Rantanen. If Rantanen wants money and waits and gets an offer sheet (like you said in your original post) than the Avs will not let him walk. An 11million offer sheet sucks but If Ranatanen is wise he waits it out gets that 11million from another team and basically forces the Avs to match . They would not risk losing Rantanen for just 4 1sts at the cost of 1.5ish million per year. To get Rantanen off the Avs an outside team will need to offer 13+ million as that might be too high for the Avalanche.

Still with the playoff success the Av's have had and the fact he gets to play with Mack I doubt it reaches the point where Rantanen gets an external offersheet. As a leaf fan I'm perfectly okay trading any of these young guys on the team. No more overpayments, deal anyone who won't sign fair deals.
 
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Ruggle

Registered User
Jan 21, 2019
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The kids are getting greedy cmon Marner sign for 9 million thats still a lot of money
 
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HoweHullOrr

Registered User
Oct 3, 2013
11,812
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I hadn't seen that part, no, sorry. I'm not actually sure what that's about - Have you noticed the Projected Cap Hit changing at the same time, or just the Projected Cap Space?

As for the Playoffs, I honestly believe that this core just needs to continue growing in order to get to the next level. This is the first time that expectations have been so high for this group, and they were still technically the underdogs going into Game 1 - I'm not ready to blame the lack of success on make-up yet, and think that development, more-so than personnel changes, will be what makes this team a winner in the future.

"Projected Cap Space".

Agreed that learning to win can take time. I've always thought that people were underestimating the timeline. Washington Capitals are an example.

So, who makes it to the Cup, and who wins?
 

Throw More Waffles

Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
Oct 9, 2015
12,939
9,885
Your confusing what I'm saying. I don't think it will take 11 million to sign Rantanen. If Rantanen wants money and waits and gets an offer sheet (like you said in your original post) than the Avs will not let him walk. An 11million offer sheet sucks but If Ranatanen is wise he waits it out gets that 11million from another team and basically forces the Avs to match . They would not risk losing Rantanen for just 4 1sts at the cost of 1.5ish million per year. To get Rantanen off the Avs an outside team will need to offer 13+ million as that might be too high for the Avalanche.

Still with the playoff success the Av's have had and the fact he gets to play with Mack I doubt it reaches the point where Rantanen gets an external offersheet. As a leaf fan I'm perfectly okay trading any of these young guys on the team. No more overpayments, deal anyone who won't sign fair deals.
Because the Avalanche aren't the Maple Leafs, I borderline guarantee you that Rantanen will sign a 9 mil-ish long term contract well before any offer sheet is offered.

The absolute complete stupid bullshit overpaying nonsense only happens to the Maple leafs. Marner will hold out for every single last solitary PENNY he can make, and Point, Aho, and Rantanen will just sign fair market deals.
 

hockeywiz542

Registered User
May 26, 2008
16,069
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Mailbag: Penguins trade possibilities; Marner's next Maple Leafs contract
What happens if Mitchell Marner outprices himself from what the Toronto Maple Leafs can afford to spend against the salary cap in upcoming contract negotiations? Is it possible he doesn't return? -- @k_corpstein

I don't think Marner is going to price himself out of Toronto's salary cap structure because the market seems set for him when you look at other scoring forwards who have signed recent contracts. Kucherov and Vegas Golden Knights forward Mark Stone each start on eight-year contract extensions that carry $9.5 million cap charges next season. Marner should be in that ballpark, maybe with a $500,000 bump to get him up to $10 million per season, and that doesn't price him out from the Maple Leafs structure.

The better question is how long will it take for Toronto and Marner to settle on a new contract, because the last thing the Maple Leafs want to do is go deep into the summer with it unresolved. They went down that road with forward William Nylander this season and he didn't sign a six-year contract until Dec. 1. Toronto wants to have Marner's situation resolved by the 2019 NHL Draft (June 21-22) or by June 30 at the latest. I don't think the Maple Leafs will be scared off by offer sheets, but if they don't have him signed before July 1, they could look to trade him.
 

AreBe

This is the Real Are Be and not a Burner account!
Apr 1, 2013
880
313
You think?
I think KD has the backing of growing analytic community and every fan that doesn't want to associate themselves with the "old guard"

Anyway it was just meant to be an off the wall conspiracy theory :D

In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women.
Tony Montana: In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women.

Old Leafs way: First you gotta see if your ill conceived, restricted to the 401 only, dart toss for a draft pick worked out, then if the player works out, then he has the power. Now that the player has the power, you have to pay him lots, and you have singed up for the law of diminishing returns and inflation of player wages is your enemy, as he is older, every year he is getting weaker, older and slower and the law of diminishing returns kicks in and inflation kicks in so you pay him because he has the power once the best years are behind him. If not a complete disaster, this old Leafs method resulted in teams that were rather dreary.

New Leafs Way: You have a statistical theory of the game. You do weighted averaging and calculus and real deal statistical analysis, conceivably a different model for each different position. You have real deal scouts who fill out and provide useful information that can be entered into a spreadsheet. You have draftable players, players in the NHL, players in the AHL all ranked for various purposes including salary cap considerations. Now the team hits gold more often than before at the draft, and trades up or down based on that math, and the player more than likely will pan out, and so now you pay him when he a restricted free agent, and you pay him lots, and the player wrongly thinks he has the power. But the team has the power, because instead of paying for yesterday's results, you are paying for tomorrow's - the glorious law of increasing returns! And further, because of inflation in player salaries, that apparently stupid sucker deal is now a bargain! In fact, that low wage for that player is a tradable commodity- those low wages drive the value of the player higher than what that player based exclusively on performance is worth! Genius! This is. First you draft the player, then the player pans out, then you pay the player for what he will be in the future, then the team has the power, and the player is underpaid! I know this is a new way of thinking, so those who do not believe in analytics can be forgiven.

Could someone really be so stupid as to give up 4 first round draft picks? Has it ever been done? Is it worth making a qualifying offer (NOTE - they are only for 1 year per CBA, as I understand it) to Marner 10.5 Million to see if we can get 4 firsts for him? I know if I were a GM, giving up 4 consecutive first round picks is something of which I would be leary

But saving 10 Million and using analytics to score in the draft in the salary cap era with inflation driving up wages every year, I think we need to learn that these seemingly outrageous deals our technocrat GM has arranged are in fact brilliant, and stem of analytical vision

 

GardinerTheForward

Registered User
Mar 23, 2014
2,351
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Because the Avalanche aren't the Maple Leafs, I borderline guarantee you that Rantanen will sign a 9 mil-ish long term contract well before any offer sheet is offered.

The absolute complete stupid bull**** overpaying nonsense only happens to the Maple leafs. Marner will hold out for every single last solitary PENNY he can make, and Point, Aho, and Rantanen will just sign fair market deals.
Leafs Tax definitely feels real. Ontario income tax definitely plays a part. I’m sure the NHL could* figure the tax imbalance out if they wanted but they won’t.
 

A1LeafNation

Good, is simply not good enough!
Oct 17, 2010
27,649
17,720
Tampa gets 2m per play per year in discounts because of taxes right?

Pretty sure Marner is making at least 2m more per season in advertising than he would anywhere else.

If he can't make 9.95m x 8 years. Sign Panarin. Its about winning a cup not keeping Marner at all costs.
 

Leafs87

Mr. Steal Your Job
Aug 10, 2010
14,985
5,058
Toronto
After Dubas’ last two contracts all they can really point to is that league wide very few wingers make more than their top centres when a team has a high value center like Matthews/Tavares. Still hard to keep Marner from making nice money after how the last contracts went.

Here’s to hoping it’s 8 years at least so at one point it looks like a good deal
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
80,628
57,659
Tampa gets 2m per play per year in discounts because of taxes right?

Pretty sure Marner is making at least 2m more per season in advertising than he would anywhere else.

If he can't make 9.95m x 8 years. Sign Panarin. Its about winning a cup not keeping Marner at all costs.

That's probably why they want to do the deal before July 1. Go get a replacement after that date.
 

Kiwi

Registered User
Mar 5, 2016
21,592
16,753
The Naki
Leafs Tax definitely feels real. Ontario income tax definitely plays a part. I’m sure the NHL could* figure the tax imbalance out if they wanted but they won’t.

They are getting paid in US dollars which with the Canadian exchange rate is very favorable, a good lawyer and accountant can save a ton of money as well

I think the fawning media coverage and fan base are major players in this

If your told your ******* awesome every minute of the day and deserve huge money because of your sheer awesomeness you start believing it eventually

There's a spoiled, entitled vibe coming off our young guys right now
 

Chris18820

Registered User
Nov 11, 2018
467
321
Tony Montana: In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women.

Old Leafs way: First you gotta see if your ill conceived, restricted to the 401 only, dart toss for a draft pick worked out, then if the player works out, then he has the power. Now that the player has the power, you have to pay him lots, and you have singed up for the law of diminishing returns and inflation of player wages is your enemy, as he is older, every year he is getting weaker, older and slower and the law of diminishing returns kicks in and inflation kicks in so you pay him because he has the power once the best years are behind him. If not a complete disaster, this old Leafs method resulted in teams that were rather dreary.

New Leafs Way: You have a statistical theory of the game. You do weighted averaging and calculus and real deal statistical analysis, conceivably a different model for each different position. You have real deal scouts who fill out and provide useful information that can be entered into a spreadsheet. You have draftable players, players in the NHL, players in the AHL all ranked for various purposes including salary cap considerations. Now the team hits gold more often than before at the draft, and trades up or down based on that math, and the player more than likely will pan out, and so now you pay him when he a restricted free agent, and you pay him lots, and the player wrongly thinks he has the power. But the team has the power, because instead of paying for yesterday's results, you are paying for tomorrow's - the glorious law of increasing returns! And further, because of inflation in player salaries, that apparently stupid sucker deal is now a bargain! In fact, that low wage for that player is a tradable commodity- those low wages drive the value of the player higher than what that player based exclusively on performance is worth! Genius! This is. First you draft the player, then the player pans out, then you pay the player for what he will be in the future, then the team has the power, and the player is underpaid! I know this is a new way of thinking, so those who do not believe in analytics can be forgiven.

Could someone really be so stupid as to give up 4 first round draft picks? Has it ever been done? Is it worth making a qualifying offer (NOTE - they are only for 1 year per CBA, as I understand it) to Marner 10.5 Million to see if we can get 4 firsts for him? I know if I were a GM, giving up 4 consecutive first round picks is something of which I would be leary

But saving 10 Million and using analytics to score in the draft in the salary cap era with inflation driving up wages every year, I think we need to learn that these seemingly outrageous deals our technocrat GM has arranged are in fact brilliant, and stem of analytical vision
The problem with scoring in the draft is it might take years to see results. We are in win now mode, the rebuild is over. There is a high probability that the likes of Matthews and Andersen will not be with this team in 5 years.

Analytics will have a very limited role in the draft. Hockey isnt baseball, its a high speed continuous game that can be difficult to quantify or model. It cant measure intangibles in young players such as drive, maturity or dedication.
A sport like baseball can be broken down and everything recorded or measured as a series of discrete events. Analytics have a much bigger influence on that sport.
Several years back the Pirates realized through analytics that pitch framing, shifting and ground ball induced pitching was all under-valued and they could directly model and predict the effect a catcher like Russ Martin would have on the number of additional called strikes and therefore runs saved during the course of a season.
Analytics have a role to play in our game but they will never have the impact such as what I described above. Statistical analysis in sports isnt as complex as you make it out to be. It isnt catastrophe modelling.

It is highly improbable that the cap will go up forever. Those so called deals are not brilliant at all. They are over payments in terms of AAV, % of cap, length and upfront money. You were being sarcastic right?
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,880
34,168
St. Paul, MN
Never say Never !!!

What if a team like Edmonton gets desperate for team success and already have 2 X elite Cs in McDavid and Draisaitl the #2 and #4 OA scorers from last year, under contract for the next 7 years... They've been desperately looking for wingers..

An Edmonton offersheet for Marner at +$11 mil X 7, to land him, by promising Mitch he will be playing with Connor together.. If Marner gets 94 points playing with JT how many would he got riding shotgun with McDavid, and how many more points would Connor get?

Maybe 4 X 1st round picks is worth finding that answer out for Edmonton. What do they have to lose other than some draft capital ?

Marner would have to agree first sign with the Oilers- an organization that has been widely mocked as the worst run team in po hockey. Seems an unlikely scenario to me: an empty thread from Marners agent.

And again, if he does sign, let him walk.
 
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Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,880
34,168
St. Paul, MN
I would put Mitch in the same category as Kane.
I think the Leafs would deal Willie before theyd entertain dealing Mitch personally. I'd rather pay Marner 10-11 than 7 to Willie any day of the week. Don't think anyone is giving Mitch 12.

Trading away useful players to give another a terrble contract would be a flawed move imo
 

diceman934

Help is on the way.
Jul 31, 2010
17,370
4,197
NHL player factory
Never say never, Sparks will be fighting for a job in the pre-season, it's not inconceivable he wins it

If the reports are true and he thinks he deserves Matthews horrendous contract I seriously doubt he's remaining on this team, he's not even close to worth that (Matthews isn't either by the way) and that would be the definition of pricing yourself out of the market

I hope he signs something acceptable and we keep him (he's a fantastic player) but I've ceased to expect anything resononable with any of these kids
Sparks is done. He will not be at camp.

Marner is 100% a Leaf. What ever the contract is it is. You make trades and moves based on the remaining cap space and what we can do to shed cap.
 

A1LeafNation

Good, is simply not good enough!
Oct 17, 2010
27,649
17,720
After Dubas’ last two contracts all they can really point to is that league wide very few wingers make more than their top centres when a team has a high value center like Matthews/Tavares. Still hard to keep Marner from making nice money after how the last contracts went.

Here’s to hoping it’s 8 years at least so at one point it looks like a good deal

You do know Dubas already stated you pay premiums for big centers and you pay premiums for goal scoring with the Matthews signing.

He already has drawn his line in the sand.
 

Superstar

"Be water, my friend."
Jun 25, 2008
12,825
9,183
The best case scenario is AM and WN perform to their contracts.

If the Leafs want to win a Cup, they would have to, so do Tavares and Marner...if they are taking up all that money, they can't rely on the cheap depth players to make a difference...they would all need to have career years and perform to their full potential in the playoffs...they would literally need to carry this team on their shoulders night in and night out. They are literally asking for it when they want all that money...you can't take that kind of payment and then take nights off...nobody would put up with it.
 
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DanM

Registered User
Oct 2, 2017
5,584
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The kids are getting greedy cmon Marner sign for 9 million thats still a lot of money

Agreed

9 million is still amazing, and it helps the team.

People will say "why should he get less than AM" but also why does he need as much as AM?

If that happens, it's an ego thing, it can be nothing else but that.

9 million is not an underpayment, he would be fine, and it allows the team to add more for future runs.

I would love to hear what his reasoning would be "Hey Dubas, I need 11 million per year to live my best life and just break even with my bills???"

Ummmmm no, you are just greedy and want your ego stroked.

Enough is enough, if you are not down with winning first, goodbye, I don't care who you are. The Bruins shipped Seguins ass out the door, so get on the same page, or f*** off.
 

Kiwi

Registered User
Mar 5, 2016
21,592
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The Naki
Sparks is done. He will not be at camp.

Marner is 100% a Leaf. What ever the contract is it is. You make trades and moves based on the remaining cap space and what we can do to shed cap.

Sparks is under contract next season, he's got a good shot at being in camp next season

Your thinking like a fan with a major bias towards a player, Marner is a fine player but he's not the best player on the roster and there's a limit to what you can do to fit him in if he won't sign something acceptable

Tavares, Matthews, Rielly
Those guys are the guys you build your team around, everybody else needs to fit in and if Marner won't accept something realistic like 10M×7 he should go on the block, let's see how keen the Toronto boy is to stick around

Pricing himself off the team is eminently possible if he wants to go that route, that's his decision
 
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