Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVII (continued)

[Notsince67]

Again, that's justifying throwing out president and comparables to get the outcome you want, that is not a way to stay competitive in a hard cap league, why is he so special that he deserves more than Ratanen exactly? His charming smile? His awesomeness? Do normal league practices and comparables not apply to him now? Anybody else you dont want those things to matter with or is Marner the only player deserving special treatment?

No you don't, I'm struggling to see why exactly were going to roll over and be his ***** because camps soon, there's this thing called leverage and when his offersheet threat didn't eventuate his went down and the fact that certain segments of this fan base can't wait to give these kids everything they want blows my mind

How about paying him in line with comparables and not folding? Bold strategy I know but seems like a solid idea if you like being competitive long term

Your RFA list was franchise centers and defenseman, we've got those so that makes giving into a RFA winger even worse, which is really saying something

Had Marner had Rantanen PP minutes the gulf would be way wider. Had the leafs PP been effectual this year and Marners p/60 matched last year, under Rantanen's minutes he would have had around 20 point more. Marner was the best EV P1/60 player at even strength in the league this year. Rantanen WAS LIKE 137TH

 

[Kiwi]

Kane got the same as his franchise center and has been the best player for 3 cup teams. You can't just dismiss him as being just a winger. He's an elite playmaking winger who drives play. Ovechkin has always made more than Backstrom and Kuznetsov. You can't just dismiss someone because they are a winger.

Its not like we can swap Marner for a lesser paid Rantanen. You have to work with what you have to make a deal eventually work. Being spiteful, and digging in is pointless, if the player can legitimately live up to the dollars he is going to be paid, even if you deem it an over-payment for an RFA.

Kane won stuff, Ovi is a generational goal scorer (much like Matthews) and Toews scoring goals like Matthews is his wet dream, now why is the kid who hasn't won **** and doesn't score goals at an amazing clip getting franchise level center (more if were being honest) money exactly?

He's a bloody good player but this belief he's better than guys like Ratanen needs to die, he's not a bloody unicorn and shouldn't be treated as such because he's "our guy)

Making a player take something in line with the rest of the league is spiteful and digging in? I don't think you and I agree what spiteful and digging in actually look like

You see I could say that spiteful and digging in looks like a kid demanding more than anybody comparable to him in the rest of the league, strange how that works in reverse isn't it?

 

[Kiwi]

Had Marner had Rantanen PP minutes the gulf would be way wider. Had the leafs PP been effectual this year and Marners p/60 matched last year, under Rantanen's minutes he would have had around 20 point more. Marner was the best EV P1/60 player at even strength in the league this year. Rantanen WAS LIKE 137TH

Marner was our PP QB so I don't see how saying if our PP didn't suck he would have done better, perhaps the guy that's running it should take some responsibility for that

Aren't you one of those people that complain about people extrapolating Matthews numbers out because of injuries and minutes? Change of heart about that have we?

It's also been pointed out multiple times Marner's primary assist numbers are a strong possibility to regress next season, that doesn't look sustainable so you want to be careful with that

 

[93LEAFS]

Kane won stuff, Ovi is a generational goal scorer (much like Matthews) and Toews scoring goals like Matthews is his wet dream, now why is the kid who hasn't won **** and doesn't score goals at an amazing clip getting franchise level center (more if were being honest) money exactly?

He's a bloody good player but this belief he's better than guys like Ratanen needs to die, he's not a bloody unicorn and shouldn't be treated as such because he's "our guy)

Making a player take something in line with the rest of the league is spiteful and digging in? I don't think you and I agree what spiteful and digging in actually look like

You see I could say that spiteful and digging in looks like a kid demanding more than anybody comparable to him in the rest of the league, strange how that works in reverse isn't it?

He’s outproduced Matthews and Eichel the last 3 years. Now part of that is health but Marner has shown the ability to be healthy. It’s pointless to lose an elite talent over 1M a year if he’s actually likely to play up to the value of the contract if the only issue is he’s getting paid as an RFA and not a UFA. I think Matthews is better but not massively so.

 

[Confucius]

You'll regret letting a talent like Marner go. And, the team is built to go this year. As stated many times, Marner will live up to pretty much any contract between 11m and 12m barring a dramatic downturn in his performance. You are buying his absolute prime years. The complaint is he wants to be paid more than a typical RFA. But, the recent trend is that elite players who are RFA's aren't paid like RFA's if you look at McDavid, Matthews, Eichel, Draisaitl, Ekblad, etc. If he signed the exact same deal as Panarin, he is likely to provide more value over the life of the contract due to the disparity in age. Now, I don't think you break and hand everything over right now, but you have to be willing to overpay by the time it gets closer to camp. Which is why both sides are going to be in a holding pattern.

He wont be let go, if he wants to play in the NHL he has to accept the Leafs best offer as there is no offer sheet. If he doesn't want to play in the NHL well then yeah we let him go.

I can't believe what a bunch of cavers there are on HF. The team has the hammer yet people are caving into the player. AMAZING!

 

[93LEAFS]

He wont be let go, if he wants to play in the NHL he has to accept the Leafs best offer as there is no offer sheet. If he doesn't want to play in the NHL well then yeah we let him go.

I can't believe what a bunch of cavers there are on HF. The team has the hammer yet people are caving into the player. AMAZING!

You obviously hold firm until training camp. But at that point you need to make a deal. We can’t have another Nylander situation for a bunch of reasons, and we caved on that in the last day.

 

[Nylander88]

You obviously hold firm until training camp. But at that point you need to make a deal. We can’t have another Nylander situation for a bunch of reasons, and we caved on that in the last day.

Then what? Marner holds firm and we cave and look weak? As a result of caving to the players ridiculous demands, having to instantly unload a Kapanen or a Johnsson to make room for the shiny new contract? Basically give Johnsson or Kapanen away because teams aren't paying up for either when they now know you need to shed the salary. Nah dude. You let Marner sit at home if it gets that far. Sold for 4 firsts to the first bidder, come get him boys.
We. Have. The. Leverage.

 

[93LEAFS]

Then what? Marner holds firm and we cave and look weak? As a result of caving to the players ridiculous demands, having to instantly unload a Kapanen or a Johnsson to make room for the shiny new contract? Basically give Johnsson or Kapanen away because teams aren't paying up for either when they now know you need to shed the salary. Nah dude. You let Marner sit at home if it gets that far. Sold for 4 firsts to the first bidder, come get him boys.
We. Have. The. Leverage.

You don’t trade Marner for 4 asset which have such a high variability on return. If none of those picks are top 10 we will lose that trade.

You are highly unlikely to win any trade where you give up 94 point 22 year old. The highest point total of any Leaf since Gilmore.

 

[DarkKnight]

Had Marner had Rantanen PP minutes the gulf would be way wider. Had the leafs PP been effectual this year and Marners p/60 matched last year, under Rantanen's minutes he would have had around 20 point more. Marner was the best EV P1/60 player at even strength in the league this year. Rantanen WAS LIKE 137TH

Yes. The only thing saving us this year on his contract is Marner didn’t cash in on the PP. Tavares also a down year. If that thing ever clicks, man.

 

[Confucius]

You don’t trade Marner for 4 asset which have such a high variability on return. If none of those picks are top 10 we will lose that trade.

You are highly unlikely to win any trade where you give up 94 point 22 year old. The highest point total of any Leaf since Gilmore.

That's why there is no trade. Seriously put yourself in Marners position he has to take the Leafs best offer. His options are few and he'll make a lot less in the K. I'd tell him firmly and quite honestly once training camp begins are offers get lower because we feel he will not be as productive as if he was with us from day 1.

He is in a no win situation he has to take what we offer.

 

[Kiwi]

He’s outproduced Matthews and Eichel the last 3 years. Now part of that is health but Marner has shown the ability to be healthy. It’s pointless to lose an elite talent over 1M a year if he’s actually likely to play up to the value of the contract if the only issue is he’s getting paid as an RFA and not a UFA. I think Matthews is better but not massively so.

By only 1M? If he's this special why is it only 1M exactly? I'm thinking that somebody this amazing should be making league max year on year, you know since comparables and boring **** like that no longer count

Matthews and Eichel? Franchise centers that score goals

Why is the assist machine winger being compared to them exactly rather than somebody like Ratanen, you know an actual winger that plays with a franchise level center and scores more goals

Matthews contract is what happens when you throw out comparables because your guys "special" and it completely screws your cap structure
Imagine my shock, but let's keep on going with that plan because that sure looks like a winner since Marner's not using it against us

 

[Nineteen67]

Yes. The only thing saving us this year on his contract is Marner didn’t cash in on the PP. Tavares also a down year. If that thing ever clicks, man.

Marner’s below average shot has a lot to do with the PP not clicking at a higher rate.

 

[93LEAFS]

By only 1M? If he's this special why is it only 1M exactly? I'm thinking that somebody this amazing should be making league max year on year, you know since comparables and boring **** like that no longer count

Matthews and Eichel? Franchise centers that score goals

Why is the assist machine winger being compared to them exactly rather than somebody like Ratanen, you know an actual winger that plays with a franchise level center and scores more goals

Matthews contract is what happens when you throw out comparables because your guys "special" and it completely screws your cap structure
Imagine my shock, but let's keep on going with that plan because that sure looks like a winner since Marner's not using it against us

Eichel isn't a goal-machine. He got two more goals than Marner.

Marner is the last guy who could really use it against us. Dubas, screwed up on how he handled the RFAs, but now that we are at where we are now, you can't let him go just because you deem it a high-figure for an RFA. All that matters is that he can provide the production to live up to said deal. Which he likely can. It's just not the cut rate you like to get from an RFA.

 

[Macallan18]

Yes, because Columbus that wouldn't pay Parinen would give up assets to overpay Marner. Give up 4 frists, destroy their cap structure with their own unsigned RFA Werenski, and await the Jones contract coming up.

Lol it’s been quoted numerous times as a destination. Not saying it makes any sense. The point of my post was to denigrate it as a destination. Panerin may have felt the same.
Columbus has issues. Marner would be a moron to go there.

 

[Nylander88]

You don’t trade Marner for 4 asset which have such a high variability on return. If none of those picks are top 10 we will lose that trade.

You are highly unlikely to win any trade where you give up 94 point 22 year old. The highest point total of any Leaf since Gilmore.

You don't cave and wreck your team. If no offer-sheet comes he has zero leverage. He sits at home.

 

[93LEAFS]

You don't cave and wreck your team. If no offer-sheet comes he has zero leverage. He sits at home.

And, him sitting at home hurts the team and our chances. It is not like it helps us to have him sitting at home. Yes, you exert leverage, but it doesn't help us. We lose our leading scorer from last year, our best winger and our PP qb. We also can't take a cap hit like Nylander's where we are paying a high-cap hit over a condensed season. Which is why it needs to be solved by the start of the season.

 

[Confucius]

Not sure if Trouba has been brought up here yet, but Trouba gets 8, and people here don’t think Marner deserves 11+?

Look back at older trade proposals D> W. Nobody builds from the wing out or so I've read.

 

[Macallan18]

Point, if he isn’t signed by start of season his first year cap hit goes up and that would be tough on our structure.

 

[Macallan18]

We also can't take a cap hit like Nylander's where we are paying a high-cap hit over a condensed season. Which is why it needs to be solved by the start of the season.

Bingo my point for some time.
This is a huge issue this year.

 

[Confucius]

Point, if he isn’t signed by start of season his first year cap hit goes up and that would be tough on our structure.

He'll just have to accept less then, or wait until next year, if there is one.

No way I'm signing him mid season for any amount since there may not be a season next year.

2 years pay for a few months work? Sorry life isnt going to be that good.

 

[Kiwi]

Eichel isn't a goal-machine. He got two more goals than Marner.

Marner is the last guy who could really use it against us. Dubas, screwed up on how he handled the RFAs, but now that we are at where we are now, you can't let him go just because you deem it a high-figure for an RFA. All that matters is that he can provide the production to live up to said deal. Which he likely can. It's just not the cut rate you like to get from an RFA.

I'm not even arguing for a cut rate, just something in line with his comparables which would be Rantanen if he goes first, that doesn't seem like to much to ask for

I honestly don't care, none of these players mean anything to me and if Marner needs to go or sit because his demands are to high so be it, I'd not only welcome an offersheet I'd force him to sign it but until then he's just another RFA with just another RFA's leverage

 

[Mr Hockey]

With Matthews on a 5 year deal and one D'man signed for next year and Kadri moved, trading away 1st round picks ... Mitch has a lot more leverage than people think

 

[HolyCrap]

With Matthews on a 5 year deal and one D'man signed for next year and Kadri moved, trading away 1st round picks ... Mitch has a lot more leverage than people think

He’s still a RFA. He can sit all year like Willy should have been stuck doing.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I’m starting to soften my stance on this a little.

I was previously making the argument that Leafs management NEEDS to get these overpayments under control, even if it costs Marner.

But now I’m rethinking it.

This is the LAST big rfa for Dubas to sign. After that, by the time the leafs have another young star rfa to sign, these contracts will be ancient history, and there will be much more recent comparables. It might even be under an entirely new cba.

So what’s a 1-2 million overpay out of 80-85 million cap ceiling the next few years? It’s not as big of a loss as losing Marner outright.

I’m still FURIOUS at dubas (I quite literally hate him... HATE him) for the previous unprecedented dramatic overpayments.

But looking at things in the present, right now, he’s long set the precedent of unreasonably overpaying his superstar rfa’s. He’s going to have to do the same with Marner. It’s the bed he’s made for himself.

 

[Nylander88]

And, him sitting at home hurts the team and our chances. It is not like it helps us to have him sitting at home. Yes, you exert leverage, but it doesn't help us. We lose our leading scorer from last year, our best winger and our PP qb. We also can't take a cap hit like Nylander's where we are paying a high-cap hit over a condensed season. Which is why it needs to be solved by the start of the season.

Agreed. Mitch should worry about that more than us imo. Season rolls on with or without him. We'll be ok