Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVII (continued)

[Notsince67]

There isn't a single reputable source that ever corroborated that Kypreos story. Maybe it's true. Maybe it isn't. We simply don't know.

What we do know is however, as stated by many, repeatedly, was Marner's intent to go last.

Now argument could certainly be made we should have also signed Matthews earlier than we did, and I'd generally agree, but the point remains, best conclusion we can draw based on credible reporting is that without Matthews' figure done, we weren't getting a resolution to Marner.

Ferris was quite public that Dubas was lowballing last summer. This was unchallenged. If they were close, this would not have been said

 

[Walshy7]

I doubt there are many people on this board who didn't predict a career year for Tavares and Marner both.


This whole argument started when people started diminishing Tavares in order to boost Marner. Tavares superstar status doesn't depend on Marner. His career body of work is argument enough to shut that down quick.

This!. even saying Marner drives the line goes out the window because he JT drove it together. So much acting like JT is a scrub in earlier additions of the marner debate. Marner helped JT score 10 more goals than previous career best, while marner added 25 points they massively helped each other

 

[JayfromNB1219]

As pointed out, how much was Tavares 20% improvement on all his career highs at 5v5 caused by Marner? Everyone seems to ignore that.

here's the thing though...that's a whataboutism...it doesn't matter what Tavares actually did it matters what Marner did and Tavares only had a what 2 point increase from his most productive season while Marner had a 26 point increase, this is not to say Marner had no effect (JT had 47 goals and you bet Marner played a role in a solid majority of them) but it is to say what were his point totals with Bozak and Kadri...he was no slouch but his numbers were not what they were with JT. Both guys benefited...

Tavares benefited from having a gifted playmaker that sees the ice as well if not better than he does

Marner benefited from playing with a true star and a gifted finisher and playmaker...

and this is just general knowledge about JT that allows me to call him a star...plus he has 10 years of record on which to base that...
Marner broke out yes...but the sticking point is as always was that breakout due in majority to playing with a guy who is an elite finisher or because Mitch Marner progressed THAT much...

I figure he will end up with even more points this year as he is apparently working on his shot all summer which will free up even more room and produce even more chances as D's realize they have to respect his newly found shot (assuming all goes well)

 

[Mess]

Matthews was willing to sign. Marner by most accounts wasn't until he saw Matthews' number.

You can call it something incendiary like "inmates running the asylum" if you so wish but I think that's no more the case than any other star players tend to dictate negotiation with their clubs.

Dubas plain and simply cannot force Marner to sign on his timeline and young players are better, more confident and more aware than ever of their power

Dubas is also under no obligation to give Marner any contract proposal that the Leafs Team doesn't like, because he simply cannot force Marner to sign it, no matter how confident Marner is, or the order he wanted to go in.

Dubas is in full control as management, dictating both the terms and price that Leafs are willing to offer Marner to play for Leafs.

Marner options are to sit back and listen as an employee.
Or
Since Mitch can't be forced to sign it, he can hold out and remain unsigned and unpaid as long as he wishes and continue to pretend he is dictating negotiations.

PS. The way Dubas got schoolled by both Nylander and Matthews in their contracts, its hard to blame you for believing its not the players calling the shots. It sure comes across that way based on the outcomes, but its not the way an employer vs employee is supposed to work.

 

[Legion34]

It's not a huge stretch to think that people may be familiar with a local kid and hear things from time to time.

Sure. But if you have signed any contract or sold a home or negotiated anything. You realize that people change their minds or flip flop or say a single sentence in a long negotiation

Then it gets repeated as fact.

Unless there is a signed copy by Marner on the table. It means nothing

 

[JayfromNB1219]

Marner has been told by his group and I'm sure Dubas as well to not say anything publicly about the negotiations/contract/etc and let his agent and Leafs management handle it.

No doubt...but you know if Ferris stepped out of line and Marner really had a problem with it then you'd see a change in the way Ferris conducted himself going forward...no change...no problem lol

 

[Notsince67]

It came out in the media 8 months later. Regardless. A deal doesn’t mean anything until it is signed.

I don’t see why Marners position in September was 8 years and now it’s 2-3.....

Because he bore the risk of this year. Dubas didn't buy insurance and he lost. Had he had broken his back during the year would you expect Dubas' position to remain unchanged? If he regressed to 45 points, do you expect Dubas' position to remain unchanged? This is what happens.

 

[Walshy7]

Ferris was quite public that Dubas was lowballing last summer. This was unchallenged. If they were close, this would not have been said

right but lets say they wanted $14M and dubas offered $10M to them that is lowballing is it not? when it reality the leafs are on the money and Marners camp is delusional. This is hypothetical obviously but without actual numbers who cares if ferris comes out crying about lowball offers?

 

[Notsince67]

This!. even saying Marner drives the line goes out the window because he JT drove it together. So much acting like JT is a scrub in earlier additions of the marner debate. Marner helped JT score 10 more goals than previous career best, while marner added 25 points they massively helped each other

Marner was at over 90 points for 82 consecutive games by December.

 

[93LEAFS]

I doubt there are many people on this board who didn't predict a career year for Tavares and Marner both.


This whole argument started when people started diminishing Tavares in order to boost Marner. Tavares superstar status doesn't depend on Marner. His career body of work is argument enough to shut that down quick.

I see a lot more of people using Tavares to tear down Marner to be honest. But, this may just be eye of the beholder. I'm not going to tear down either, its obviously a mutually beneficial set-up. So many people say Tavares stayed the same, but Marner's dramatically improved. Ignoring a bunch of factors that anyone who watched these players over the last couple of years should know. Firstly, Marner got significantly more ice-time this year. Secondly, you generally expect a player going from 20 to 21 to dramatically improve, and Marner had improved every year post-draft. Thirdly, Tavares PP role was altered, making him get fewer touches on the PP. Finally, probably the one thing this board can universally agree on, which is Babcock's PP usage. Yes, looking at Tavares numbers without context would lead you to believe he only improved his career-high by 2 points. Like, did anyone watch JT in Long Island and see how he was used on the PP. The PP ran through him, and he got more minutes. In the primary area Marner was expected to increase JT's production, he did so by a significant margin (20% of Primary and total points at 5v5 and 33% on goals at 5v5). Now, league-wide scoring also went up, which has to also be recognized, but those are massive jumps for a guy who had played 9 NHL seasons before this.

 

[93LEAFS]

And in fairness, through their first 2 years...Marner and Nylander were fairly similar. So I get not wanting to let Nylander see that 8 number as his direct comparable. But I thought i heard Marner was asking 9 not 8 last year

Marner's a year younger and has notably out produced Nylander at comparable ages. He also had a higher pedigree as a prospect.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Do we still have time to quickly overpay him before another team gives him an offersheet?

 

[SprDaVE]

He's having a good time!

 

[Legion34]

Because he bore the risk of this year. Dubas didn't buy insurance and he lost. Had he had broken his back during the year would you expect Dubas' position to remain unchanged? If he regressed to 45 points, do you expect Dubas' position to remain unchanged? This is what happens.

Huh? A 2-3 contract still bears risk now? Say he breaks his back game 1 of that deal.

It’s now 2 x $ not 8 x $

The risk is the same?

If he was willing to sign 8 x 8-9 after a 70 pt season.

Why is he not willing to sign for a long term big money deal now?

 

[Mr Hockey]

No doubt...but you know if Ferris stepped out of line and Marner really had a problem with it then you'd see a change in the way Ferris conducted himself going forward...no change...no problem lol

Ferris seems to be doing an ok job, did he do something wrong?, are upset because he said Matthews didn't take a team-friendly contract or something else?

 

[ACC1224]

Ferris seems to be doing an ok job, did he do something wrong?, are upset because he said Matthews didn't take a team-friendly contract or something else?

It's been so long since we've heard anything from Ferris can anyone even remember what he sounds like?

 

[Notsince67]

right but lets say they wanted $14M and dubas offered $10M to them that is lowballing is it not? when it reality the leafs are on the money and Marners camp is delusional. This is hypothetical obviously but without actual numbers who cares if ferris comes out crying about lowball offers?

This is just an academic argument. Not even you believe this. This line of argument is shameful

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Marner pays his agent. His agent has chosen to speak to media and provide the message he has.

With direct quotes.

Marner has not fired or publicly reprimanded his employee. Therefore people are assuming he is approving of the strategy

If an employee of a restaurant were to openly make a negative statement/behaviour, the restaurant either fires or apologizes to minimize the blowback

This is pretty standard

No.

 

[Ciao]

So, if Marner had been willing to sign a fair contract at 8 or 9 per last off season I don't see too much of a problem -- he could probably do that now.

If what he really wants is every last dollar then that's not a problem either. He should just take the highest offer he can get from a team with a less talented roster that can afford the cap space to give him. That worked pretty nicely for Bozak and there's no reason it couldn't work out for Marner too.

I just don't think its feasible to have it both ways. He can have his record-breaking contract or he can play for the Leafs, but I really doubt that he can have both.

If he signed with the Leafs tomorrow and had a season-ending injury on the first day of camp, life would go on anyway. No one would throw in the towel or lose hope of success. Theres no such thing as the indispensable man, and if Marners contract demands aren't viable for the Leafs, so be it.

It would then be time to move on.

Of course, I have no idea of what's been offered or asked of either side as I don't chat with Leafs management or Marners camp, and I don't have friends of friends who do. And, frankly, I couldn't care less if Marner wants to play for the Leafs or not. My only hope is that he signs somewhere soon, and the Leafs get some compensation if he gets a better offer.

 

[JayfromNB1219]

Ferris seems to be doing an ok job, did he do something wrong?, are upset because he said Matthews didn't take a team-friendly contract or something else?

I'm not upset about anything...you can't say Ferris has been good in these negotiations as of yet (from a Leafs fan perspective)
are you upset I am questioning the god-king Mitch Marner and his special scribe Darren Ferris?
or daring to disagree that he deserves what basically amounts to a blank check on a team with Cap troubles?

 

[ACC1224]

I'm not upset about anything...you can't say Ferris has been good in these negotiations as of yet (from a Leafs fan perspective)
are you upset I am questioning the god-king Mitch Marner and his special scribe Darren Ferris?
or daring to disagree that he deserves what basically amounts to a blank check on a team with Cap troubles?

What are you basing that on?

 

[Walshy7]

This is just an academic argument. Not even you believe this. This line of argument is shameful

believe what? you cant believe hypothetical arguments because they are hypothetical. My point was you have no idea what numbers are being used from each side so using ferris saying they were lowballed is just as "shameful".

also shameful? a post on a message board is shameful? calm down dude, I know you love mitch marner more than the leafs but it will get done in due course and we will be enjoying him on the ice.

 

[JayfromNB1219]

Marner won't talk contract with Maple Leafs until season ends: report (Lost out on money letting Matthews go first)

Marner's agent says Leafs have lowballed him in contract talks (making public comments attempting to shame the team)

Quick Strikes: Mitch Marner’s agent responds strongly to Auston Matthews’ new contract (commenting on Mitch's teammates...which can't go over too well)

I mean I can keep going but thats enough for now

 

[Notsince67]

Huh? A 2-3 contract still bears risk now? Say he breaks his back game 1 of that deal.

It’s now 2 x $ not 8 x $

The risk is the same?

If he was willing to sign 8 x 8-9 after a 70 pt season.

Why is he not willing to sign for a long term big money deal now?

There is risk and reward for term for both parties.
Signing a year early for term gives Marner insurance bought by selling term. The team would buy price insurance. The team felt the insurance was too high and now pays the full price. Marner will pay a full price should he get injured in the future.

Signing now buys nothing except a projection based on what one has performed. Marner now sees his price as too high for an 8 year term. Insurance is too expensive. He sees an arbitrage opportunity to maximize his earnings by taking a shorter deal. I don't know why this is difficult to understand.

 

[Notsince67]

believe what? you cant believe hypothetical arguments because they are hypothetical. My point was you have no idea what numbers are being used from each side so using ferris saying they were lowballed is just as "shameful".

also shameful? a post on a message board is shameful? calm down dude, I know you love mitch marner more than the leafs but it will get done in due course and we will be enjoying him on the ice.

Well lets see here. I don't need to be a brain surgeon to know that marner could get 7-7.5 just by not improving.
I also know that at the time, that it is extremely unlikely that Marner would have asked for a 10MM contract because he had zero statistics backing such a thing. At the very most, 9 would be the uppermost limit.
Under your hypothetical situation, what would the differential be to constitute a lowball characterization?
Before you go to too much trouble, the answer is pretty evident that the leaks are well within credible ranges.