Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVII (continued)

[Sypher04]

I don't make things up. Believe me or don't. But, I've had many things here before the board and posted them. Such as saying Hunter would quit if they hired Dubas in November of 2017 (which a bunch of people didn't believe), saying which OHL player got Niagara fined and forfeiture of draft picks for, the Sabres hiring Jankowski as their scouting director, and Ryan Merkley being a complete headcase.

Sorry, I don't mean to lash out at you specifically. It's just becoming common to see these kinds of posts all over here and there's no reason to believe 99% of them. It grinds on you a bit

 

[Legion34]

Marner wanted to go last. When Matthews signed there was an 83 cap orojection and McKenzie was reported that it could go to 85.

Matthews was negotiating based on an 83-85 with a projection of what 86-88 in year 2?

Marner went last. The pot shrank for now and to the future.

That’s on him.

 

[Sypher04]

Inmates running the Asylum ??

Why is it Marner telling the GM what to do, by going last?

The GM is the one offering the contracts and in control, as he is managing the team not the inmates.

So are saying Marner was smart enough to convince Dubas to get Matthews signed first to a big cap busting contract, so that he (Marner) could go afterwards, and now use that, as his 1-1 comparable next deal against Dubas in contract talks?

Matthews was willing to sign. Marner by most accounts wasn't until he saw Matthews' number.

You can call it something incendiary like "inmates running the asylum" if you so wish but I think that's no more the case than any other star players tend to dictate negotiation with their clubs.

Dubas plain and simply cannot force Marner to sign on his timeline and young players are better, more confident and more aware than ever of their power

 

[93LEAFS]

And when did you hear it? 8 months after the fact?

Last summer/September.

 

[DarkKnight]

I'm positive Marner had an impact, it just wasn't the same impact as Tavares had on Marner.

Marner played with:

van Riemsdyk - Bozak 2 vets (van Riemsdyk 30 goal scorer before Marner)
Marleua - Kadri 2 vets (Kadri 30 goal scorer before Marner)
Hyman - Tavares 1 vet and one 26 year old in his 4th. pro season. (Tavares 38 goal score before Marner)

He's earned those minutes, but they haven't been with rookies, 1st. and 2nd. year forwards.

This view doesn’t factor in the natural progress of a young player. It’s a static comparison, as though he’s some vet, as opposed to a blossoming player. Now JT having a 10 year sample set, wherein you could argue he’s on the downside of prime, and yet we saw an big uptick, that’s relevant. Look at most all star players, were their rookie or early second year numbers indicative of future production? NO.

Tavares 5 v 5 numbers with Marner are a total eye popper compared to the rest of his career. Marner scored an impressive 61 points in his last 50 NHL games-a 100 point pace- prior to JT signing, why wouldn’t we expect that to continue or improve? A second year pro peaked?

 

[Legion34]

Last summer/September.

It came out in the media 8 months later. Regardless. A deal doesn’t mean anything until it is signed.

I don’t see why Marners position in September was 8 years and now it’s 2-3.....

 

[supermann_98]

How much time needs to pass before Ferris comments taken out of context on the Matthews deal becomes a thing of the past?
Something said 6 months ago seems irrelevant to me. I don't get why anyone would still be frothed by that.

Out of site, out of mind? Just because he hasn’t commented on Matthews’ deal publicly for awhile doesn’t mean it’s not on the Marner camp’s mind, nor does it mean he isn’t using it in their negotiations

 

[ottomaddox]

So much anxiety throughout this thread.

Are people thinking that "if we don't have Marner then we won't win the cup"?

I thought fans would have learned from last year where their expectations went through the roof when Tavares signed.

Toronto still needs to win a playoff series...

 

[ACC1224]

Out of site, out of mind? Just because he hasn’t commented on Matthews’ deal publicly for awhile doesn’t mean it’s not on the Marner camp’s mind, nor does it mean he isn’t using it in their negotiations

So he hasn't commented but we keep hearing about this non stop negotiating through the media.....weird.

 

[supermann_98]

I've heard from people connected to Ferris who have given me reliable info before which I've broken ahead of the news cycle. I'll choose to believe them. Whether you want to believe me is up to you.

 

[JayfromNB1219]

I mean, no one reports to camp without a contract. I'm not even sure how it is really news. You'd be an idiot to risk tearing a knee or getting seriously injured.


Yes, because players don't improve between the ages of 20 and 21....... Let's not act like this was all Tavares and Marner didn't take large steps in his development. This isn't some 25-year-old appearing out of nowhere. This is a 4th overall pick who has steadily progressed in an elite fashion.

Literally nobody has said that people question how much of his 94pt season was personal growth and how much of it was Tavares assisted...it's a fair question, nobody is saying he hasn't improved greatly...we are just questioning what percentage of that growth in points is valid to attribute to Mitch Marner directly...it really isn't a hard concept to grasp lol

 

[93LEAFS]

It came out in the media 8 months later. Regardless. A deal doesn’t mean anything until it is signed.

I don’t see why Marners position in September was 8 years and now it’s 2-3.....

Because Matthews re-set the market. Prior to that, the expectation was elite players who are signing there RFA were signing for 8 like Eichel, McDavid, Ekblad (he's not elite, but people expected him to be), and Draisaitl. Coming off a 94 point season, and seeing the Matthews deal changes things. He was willing to do a deal last summer, but wasn't open to negotiating mid-year. To be honest, I though anything above 8 last year was going to be a bit rich for Marner. But, considering we willingly settled with Nylander at 7x6 3 months later, and then gave Matthews a 5 year team, we should have been willing to give that deal out last year knowing those where we were willing to cave. It seems Leafs didn't want to give Marner that type of money before they settled with Nylander, so they put it on the back-burner.

 

[93LEAFS]

Literally nobody has said that people question how much of his 94pt season was personal growth and how much of it was Tavares assisted...it's a fair question, nobody is saying he hasn't improved greatly...we are just questioning what percentage of that growth in points is valid to attribute to Mitch Marner directly...it really isn't a hard concept to grasp lol

As pointed out, how much was Tavares 20% improvement on all his career highs at 5v5 caused by Marner? Everyone seems to ignore that.

 

[ACC1224]

It came out in the media 8 months later. Regardless. A deal doesn’t mean anything until it is signed.

I don’t see why Marners position in September was 8 years and now it’s 2-3.....

All RFA's position changed because of Dubas and Matthews.

 

[ACC1224]

Last summer/September.

Heard the same.....Dubas turned down 8.5 x 8

 

[JayfromNB1219]

He was told if he had questions to ask his agent, the *****ebag chooses to ignore Marners wishes, that's not doing your job, that's called being a *****ebag ... I do acknowledge your opinion and get it

/end

Yeah...I don't think he is ignoring Marner's wishes...through silence Marner confirms he is ok with what his representation is doing...the kid wants to get PAID...and Ferris is happy to be a sack of cr@p to make that happen and get his commission on the contract, this isn't a hate Marner thing it needs to be a reality thing...

Reality is the Leafs have what 10.5 to use? so reality dictates with the team as it is that Marner will have to come in under 10.5 before the season starts (they can't do a Nylander...cap penalties I think I read) so really I don't think its possible to ask for 12 when 10.5 (or whatever it is) is all that's there...I feel like term is the sticking point and you can't blame a kid for wanting to control the most productive years of his career...I can see both sides of this which is why I say screw this...

Let's round up a mob...grab Ferris, Marner and Dubas toss them into the Leafs dressing room and lock them in their with a pen and 4 different offers 3,4,6,8 years respectively and leave em there until this whole show is over lol

 

[Mr Hockey]

All RFA's position changed because of Dubas and Matthews.

I see that also

 

[horner]

You know what? It is possible to like a player while not liking everything he says. I happen to love the guy. He's my favourite player, but when he lies to a reporter that he hasn't been following negotiations, he's fair game for at least some criticism.

Ok
They all say that.

 

[Legion34]

All RFA's position changed because of Dubas and Matthews.

Unmmmmm you know that’s ridiculous right?

 

[ACC1224]

There isn't a single reputable source that ever corroborated that Kypreos story. Maybe it's true. Maybe it isn't. We simply don't know.

What we do know is however, as stated by many, repeatedly, was Marner's intent to go last.

Now argument could certainly be made we should have also signed Matthews earlier than we did, and I'd generally agree, but the point remains, best conclusion we can draw based on credible reporting is that without Matthews' figure done, we weren't getting a resolution to Marner.

It's not a huge stretch to think that people may be familiar with a local kid and hear things from time to time.

 

[ACC1224]

Unmmmmm you know that’s ridiculous right?

Yes, Matthews contract length is widely considered ridiculous.

 

[Havoc]

I see this argument about Tavares point totals not dramatically rising, but I can't help but realize this argument is terribly flawed or people don't understand how he was used in Long Island. Tavares had his best 5v5 season of his career. He set new p/60 at 5v5 highs in both goals, primary points and points. In p/60 by a fairly large number. The reason Tavares overall point totals didn't improve dramatically has little to do with Mitch. The first one being, in Long Island the PP ran through him, here he got significantly fewer touches on the PP due to playing closer to the net and not running it from the sidewall like Marner. The only time he played the sidewall was when Matthews got injured. The 2nd major factor is that Tavares played the fewest PP minutes of his career due to Babcock's PP usage patterns outside of the shortened lockout season in 2012-13. At 5v5, Tavares had actually one of the best assist rates of his career. But, I guess people only look at the overall box score without acknowledging these factors.

Tavares beat his previous high totals at 5v5 by 12 points, 11 goals, and 10 primary points. Which is around a 20% increase or higher on most things.

I doubt there are many people on this board who didn't predict a career year for Tavares and Marner both.


This whole argument started when people started diminishing Tavares in order to boost Marner. Tavares superstar status doesn't depend on Marner. His career body of work is argument enough to shut that down quick.

 

[Nylander88]

Because Matthews re-set the market. Prior to that, the expectation was elite players who are signing there RFA were signing for 8 like Eichel, McDavid, Ekblad (he's not elite, but people expected him to be), and Draisaitl. Coming off a 94 point season, and seeing the Matthews deal changes things. He was willing to do a deal last summer, but wasn't open to negotiating mid-year. To be honest, I though anything above 8 last year was going to be a bit rich for Marner. But, considering we willingly settled with Nylander at 7x6 3 months later, and then gave Matthews a 5 year team, we should have been willing to give that deal out last year knowing those where we were willing to cave. It seems Leafs didn't want to give Marner that type of money before they settled with Nylander, so they put it on the back-burner.

And in fairness, through their first 2 years...Marner and Nylander were fairly similar. So I get not wanting to let Nylander see that 8 number as his direct comparable. But I thought i heard Marner was asking 9 not 8 last year

 

[Mr Hockey]

Yeah...I don't think he is ignoring Marner's wishes...through silence Marner confirms he is ok with what his representation is doing...the kid wants to get PAID...and Ferris is happy to be a sack of cr@p to make that happen and get his commission on the contract, this isn't a hate Marner thing it needs to be a reality thing...

Reality is the Leafs have what 10.5 to use? so reality dictates with the team as it is that Marner will have to come in under 10.5 before the season starts (they can't do a Nylander...cap penalties I think I read) so really I don't think its possible to ask for 12 when 10.5 (or whatever it is) is all that's there...I feel like term is the sticking point and you can't blame a kid for wanting to control the most productive years of his career...I can see both sides of this which is why I say screw this...

Let's round up a mob...grab Ferris, Marner and Dubas toss them into the Leafs dressing room and lock them in their with a pen and 4 different offers 3,4,6,8 years respectively and leave em there until this whole show is over lol

Marner has been told by his group and I'm sure Dubas as well to not say anything publicly about the negotiations/contract/etc and let his agent and Leafs management handle it.

 

[Legion34]

Yes, Matthews contract length is widely considered ridiculous.

You do realize that was the standard for many years......

Acting like one contract completely changed everything is foolish

He signed in February. RFAs were refusing to sign for months prior.

Its a much bigger thing than any one perosb