Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVII (continued)

[Cotton]

I don't think anyone hates Nylander, most just didn't like him sitting out and then playing so poorly.
There seems to be a higher level of disdain for Marner which seems unfair and a little odd, IMO.

Imaginations seem to be running a little wilder in this case.

None of it is hate, it's just fear and frustration. My point though is that there is always a provoking factor/reason for the feelings.

 

[ACC1224]

You know what? It is possible to like a player while not liking everything he says. I happen to love the guy. He's my favourite player, but when he lies to a reporter that he hasn't been following negotiations, he's fair game for at least some criticism.

What is there to 'follow'? They aren't sitting in a room 24/7.
I'm sure he's aware what's going on, he wouldn't need daily updates.
When something is close he would be informed.

 

[ACC1224]

None of it is hate, it's just fear and frustration. My point though is that there is always a provoking factor/reason for the feelings.

For sure.
The imagine ones I find particularly entertaining.

 

[Walshy7]

Glad you're able to keep your standard of evidence consistent. Good Work!

your welcome

I mean we have direct quotes from Paul Marner/Darren Ferris with those things. Im not sure what other evidence you need.

 

[Walshy7]

Just for balance, Michael Traikos on air this morning takes the view that the Leafs brass are equally “culpable” for this impasse with Marner. Also argues that despite being a winger, he is unique in that regard and equally important (or could argue such) to team success as the more old school view on centers. Felt the Matthews high contract set the precedent, as did the Nylander saga, and now the Leafs own inability to manage their internal cap now falls on Marner.

Back to the bash fest....

of course there is blame to go round. But when you start seeing and reading how marner thinks he is Matthews level the blame can slightly shift back onto marners camp. He is not worth elite goal scoring 1C money, if he scored more goals in his 94 points like say ~40 then maybe you could say:
he drives the play
scores the goals and points
he is worth Matthews money.

Please don't reply with "bUt Da tAp Ins Jt GoT" that's garbage, they both helped each other JT scored more goals than a usual season but points didn't raise much at all, because Marner is the best winger he has ever played with he didn't have to pretty much score the goals and set up the goals anymore.

 

[Clark4Ever]

It also seems like Marner's camp is holding Dubas' feet to the fire because Lou took a hard line in negotiating his entry level contract.

 

[Rob Brown]

I don't think anyone hates Nylander, most just didn't like him sitting out and then playing so poorly.
There seems to be a higher level of disdain for Marner which seems unfair and a little odd, IMO.

Imaginations seem to be running a little wilder in this case.

I guess it's cause Nylander's camp wasn't talking publicly at all while Marner's is.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Our players negotiate like they want to leave.

 

[93LEAFS]

I have to disagree with you here. This is one of the reasons I was so upset with the Matthews deal. I have said this before that no other team has created contracts that pay out the kind of bonus money we are willing to do. Furthermore the structure of the Nylander deal was likely to make the trade value of his contract much more palatable if we have to move on.

Matthew’s deal last year should have been at least 7/8 based on the bonus structure and cap hit. Unfortunately we could not have gone into the offseason with potential OS on both stars.

If the TML are looking at Marner at 10.5 say for 7 who cares if they front load it and it’s 90%+ bonus money. I understand that as a corporation they care if 30+ million will be paid out in salary when there is a lockout but the TML make so much money that is a drop in the buck.

I just hope other players like Tkachuk, Rantanen, Point, Boeser start to sign deals and we see Farris with his tail between his legs and this gets done before training camp.

I didn't say that's the case, but its the only reason I can see Shanahan turning down a contract if he indeed did. I don't think he did, but its the only reasoning that makes sense. I can't see him overruling Dubas over anything other than financial reasons. While the Leafs make a ton of money, 50M on top of the backroom expenses for management in a year where you have no revenue in a lock-out season isn't a small amount.

 

[ShaneFalco]

your welcome

I mean we have direct quotes from Paul Marner/Darren Ferris with those things. Im not sure what other evidence you need.

"Show me quotes!"
Quotes given
"Show me quotes!"

 

[TheDoldrums]

Our players negotiate like they want to leave.

Not Kappy!

 

[ACC1224]

How much time needs to pass before Ferris comments taken out of context on the Matthews deal becomes a thing of the past?
Something said 6 months ago seems irrelevant to me. I don't get why anyone would still be frothed by that.

 

[Walshy7]

"Show me quotes!"
Quotes given
"Show me quotes!"

mind boggling isn't it?

 

[ACC1224]

I guess it's cause Nylander's camp wasn't talking publicly at all while Marner's is.

I keep reading this but never see or hear it.
Any recent examples?
If there are, why is that something to be upset about?
I would think people would be happy for some news.

 

[ULF_55]

How much time needs to pass before Ferris comments taken out of context on the Matthews deal becomes a thing of the past?
Something said 6 months ago seems irrelevant to me. I don't get why anyone would still be frothed by that.

You would think so, but apparently once you show your cards people think they know who you are.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Our players negotiate like they want to leave.

Be careful what you wish for. Marner could easily be on the way out.

 

[CDN24]

of course there is blame to go round. But when you start seeing and reading how marner thinks he is Matthews level the blame can slightly shift back onto marners camp. He is not worth elite goal scoring 1C money, if he scored more goals in his 94 points like say ~40 then maybe you could say:
he drives the play
scores the goals and points
he is worth Matthews money.

Please don't reply with "bUt Da tAp Ins Jt GoT" that's garbage, they both helped each other JT scored more goals than a usual season but points didn't raise much at all, because Marner is the best winger he has ever played with he didn't have to pretty much score the goals and set up the goals anymore.

Hard to prove who has more value/more important unless you have a sample of team results with each player missing from the line-up. Marner hasn't missed any time the last 2 seasons so we don't have the data on his side.

In 2017-18 Leafs suffered without Matthews going 5-3-2 in the stretch he missed in Feb March and 1-2-4 in the time he missed in Dec of that year. Not sure where is other missed games were. So 6-5-6 in those 2 stretches- not sure where the other 3 games were that he missed. so 18 points out of 34 or a 87 pts pace vs the 105 the ended up with.

Last year in the 14 games he missed in the fall they were fine going 9-5 for a 64% points % or a full season 105 point season pace that was better than their overall pace of 100 pts. Of those 14 games 10 were against teams that made the playoffs so the schedule was tougher than normal. Probably less effect losing him having Tavares as an elite centre as well. Marner had 18 points in those 14 games also a 105 pts season pace. Tavares had 15.

Now what happens if Marner holds out, we will have the data to compare, but more importantly

If Leafs come out of gate flying without him then Management has the leverage. On the other hand if they struggle out of the gate without him, then pressure mounts to sign him ASAP. I suspect they can be good missing either one for short stretches but are obviously better with both in the lineup. If my feet were to the fire and i could only keep one I chose Marner, but thats only my opinion.

Curious to see how this works out. It seems like the other RFA's are happy to let Marner go first and set the market, will that change as we get closer to September or October. Who blinks first Marner or the Leafs or Point or tampa or rantannen or col or Jets or Laine/conners. Does that blinking involve one of these guys going the offersheet route. interesting offseason to say the least.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Be careful what you wish for. Marner could easily be on the way out.

May not be such a terrible thing - they'd get a lot for him!

 

[SeaOfBlue]

May not be such a terrible thing - they'd get a lot for him!

At this point, I'm at least considering it if I'm Dubas.

Like if someone calls up asking for him, I'm listening to whatever they have to offer. And if I get a top flight young RD for him, then I'm seriously considering moving him.

I just wonder what Marner would say to Ferris if it got to that point...

 

[Nineteen67]

He did answer questions. He just didn't give the answers you wanted. I don't know why anyone would expect that he would.

I don’t know why people are arguing that he shouldn’t have been asked questions about his contract. It would derelict of the media not to ask, equally so, Marner should expect questions about his contract.
His answers were exactly what I expected.

 

[Nineteen67]

Your comment was silly. No matter how you try to backtrack it or revise it now, it's still there for all to see.

The biggest story this summer in Toronto was the Raptors. The only people who are really losing their minds over the Marner stuff are on this site...everyone else is out enjoying the hot summer. I suggest you do the same. Cheers.

Backtracking on what, exactly?

And it’s not hot yet.....we’ve haven’t broke 100 yet and only once 95.... hurry up summer.

 

[LeafSteel]

Come on Mitchy, let’s wrap this up. We all want this guy back and wants to Bev here.

 

[ShaneFalco]

At this point, I'm at least considering it if I'm Dubas.

Like if someone calls up asking for him, I'm listening to whatever they have to offer. And if I get a top flight young RD for him, then I'm seriously considering moving him.

I just wonder what Marner would say to Ferris if it got to that point...

Someone on another board posted:

Toronto isn't losing because of offence they are losing because of defence and you are better off spending that $9-11.5m on defence.
Marner trade would net us a top4 RHD + 3C + 1st (depending on the pieces obviously but even if this is too low I'm going to use it as an example), imagine how balanced the lineup would be with those pieces and that isn't even taking into account the cap flexibility so if Barrie does play well Toronto will have the cap room to resign

 

[CDN24]

Our players negotiate like they want to leave.

It is really the only way to get max value.

When I buy a new car I negotiate with one foot out the door. I make it clear that I have a price from someone else, I have already test driven it (i never buy where I test drove), and you have 30 minutes to give me your best price. If I like it I am buying at that price, if not I am walking out not to return. It usually works if they take you seriously. If they don't you walk out and don't go back. One time I did that and his price was crap, I said thank you and started walking out. He goes what is your other price we will beat it. I politely told him that we laid the ground rules - your best price- obviously you didn't give it to me as now you are ready to deal, too bad I am buying elsewhere.

I have the luxury of leaving that dealership at any time, these RFAs only leverage other than an offersheet is withhold services, not buying a car in our analogy above. If you don't negotiate like you want to leave the team will try to take advantage of it. I would submit Matthews negotiated with one foot out the door on its way to arizona or they never would have caved as bad as they did.

 

[Luminiferous]

Wrap it up, by trading the bum.