Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVI (continued)

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81Leafs50

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May 14, 2010
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With all due respect, I wasn’t addressing the question to you, nor was this an adequate answer to my question.

With young developing players, 3 year averages is a much too large of a sample size to determine how good a player is. How good a player is determines their salary. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be considered, but you shouldn’t take the mean of all years. You should select an alternative averaging/weighting system, or just look at the most recent season.

The mean IS what people are looking at.


Mitch MarnerBrock Boeser
GPG A PTSGPG A PTS
2016-2017771942612016-20179415
2017-2018822247692017-201862292655
2018-2019822668942018-201969263056
Brayden PointMikko Raantanen
GPG A PTSGPG A PTS
2016-2017681822402016-201775201838
2017-2018823234662017-201881295584
2018-2019824151512018-201974315687
Matthew TkachukKyle Connor
GPG A PTSGPG A PTS
2016-2017761335482016-201720235
2017-2018682425492017-201876312657
2018-2019803443772018-201982343266
Patrick Laine
GPG A PTS
2016-201773362864
2017-201882442670
2018-201982302050
Points Per GameGoals Per Game
Marner0.93Marner0.28
Boeser0.83Boeser0.42
Point0.68Point0.39
Raantanen0.91Raantanen0.35
Tkachuk0.78Tkachuk0.32
Connor0.72Connor0.38
Laine0.78Laine0.46
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

Pookie

Wear a mask
Oct 23, 2013
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With all due respect, I wasn’t addressing the question to you, nor was this an adequate answer to my question.

With young developing players, 3 year averages is a much too large of a sample size to determine how good a player is. How good a player is determines their salary. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be considered, but you shouldn’t take the mean of all years. You should select an alternative averaging/weighting system, or just look at the most recent season.

It’s a tough and almost impossible thing to predict. How good a 21-22 year old will be in 4-8 years.

It’s all a gamble.

Some are less of a risk... McDavid. Some are more of a risk... Zaitsev. And some turned out to be major losses... Daigle.

In the end, no one knows until we have the benefit of history.

Adding Arbitration rights for teams and players for ELC expiry contracts would help both sides move to as reasonable a position as you can before going that route.

The way it is set up now, players have significant leverage. Particularly the good ones. They either get what they want or force a trade.

We can say what we want about sitting out or playing in the KHL but a GM that sits out a great player and misses or exits the playoffs.... that’s not much job security.
 
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MyBudJT

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It’s a tough and almost impossible thing to predict. How good a 21-22 year old will be in 4-8 years.

It’s all a gamble.

Some are less of a risk... McDavid. Some are more of a risk... Zaitsev. And some turned out to be major losses... Daigle.

In the end, no one knows until we have the benefit of history.

Adding Arbitration rights for teams and players for ELC expiry contracts would help both sides move to as reasonable a position as you can before going that route.

The way it is set up now, players have significant leverage. Particularly the good ones. They either get what they want or force a trade.

We can say what we want about sitting out or playing in the KHL but a GM that sits out a great player and misses or exits the playoffs.... that’s not much job security.

Okay, I realize all this. What does it have to do with my post? :laugh:
 

MyBudJT

Registered User
Mar 5, 2018
7,429
4,576
The mean IS what people are looking at.


Mitch MarnerBrock Boeser
GPG A PTSGPG A PTS
2016-2017771942612016-20179415
2017-2018822247692017-201862292655
2018-2019822668942018-201969263056
Brayden PointMikko Raantanen
GPG A PTSGPG A PTS
2016-2017681822402016-201775201838
2017-2018823234662017-201881295584
2018-2019824151512018-201974315687
Matthew TkachukKyle Connor
GPG A PTSGPG A PTS
2016-2017761335482016-201720235
2017-2018682425492017-201876312657
2018-2019803443772018-201982343266
Patrick Laine
GPG A PTS
2016-201773362864
2017-201882442670
2018-201982302050
Points Per GameGoals Per Game
Marner0.93Marner0.28
Boeser0.83Boeser0.42
Point0.68Point0.39
Raantanen0.91Raantanen0.35
Tkachuk0.78Tkachuk0.32
Connor0.72Connor0.38
Laine0.78Laine0.46
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

And I'm suggesting you shouldn't use the mean across ELC years approach. Select an alternative averaging/weighting method.... or look at ELC year 3 only.
 

Nylander88

Registered User
Aug 13, 2016
4,934
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Ontario
It’s a tough and almost impossible thing to predict. How good a 21-22 year old will be in 4-8 years.
Speaking of which, if Dermott is open to an extension, I'd love to lock him up for long term while his value is likely as low as it'll be. He will be a fixture in our top 4 for years to come
 

ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
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And I'm suggesting you shouldn't use the mean across ELC years approach. Select an alternative averaging/weighting method.... or look at ELC year 3 only.

From a previous post of yours, I believe you think (and I agree) is how the player trended in his first 3 years should be taken into account.
 
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ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
25,525
24,854
Richmond Hill, ON
The mean IS what people are looking at.


Mitch MarnerBrock Boeser
GPG A PTSGPG A PTS
2016-2017771942612016-20179415
2017-2018822247692017-201862292655
2018-2019822668942018-201969263056
Brayden PointMikko Raantanen
GPG A PTSGPG A PTS
2016-2017681822402016-201775201838
2017-2018823234662017-201881295584
2018-2019824151512018-201974315687
Matthew TkachukKyle Connor
GPG A PTSGPG A PTS
2016-2017761335482016-201720235
2017-2018682425492017-201876312657
2018-2019803443772018-201982343266
Patrick Laine
GPG A PTS
2016-201773362864
2017-201882442670
2018-201982302050
Points Per GameGoals Per Game
Marner0.93Marner0.28
Boeser0.83Boeser0.42
Point0.68Point0.39
Raantanen0.91Raantanen0.35
Tkachuk0.78Tkachuk0.32
Connor0.72Connor0.38
Laine0.78Laine0.46
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Can you double check Points' numbers for 2018/2019.
 
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MyBudJT

Registered User
Mar 5, 2018
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4,576
From a previous post of yours, I believe you think (and I agree) is how the player trended in his first 3 years should be taken into account.

Well, yeah. I think those that show a steeper slope in development from their U19-U22 seasons will likely end up becoming a better player. Obviously, it would be a rule of thumb and there will be those that do not fit the norm. Some players do develop later, too.
 
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SeaOfBlue

The Passion That Unites Us All
Aug 1, 2013
35,591
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I wonder if there's any chance that it gets to the point where he fires ferris

If Ferris came out and said stupid crap to media which created a whole lot of friction around the team and put Marner in a bad spotlight only to get a unsubstantial increase over what Marner could have received a few weeks or months ago, I can see that being the end of the relationship... Of course unless it's a more personal relationship or Mitch has less control over his agent situation than he should.

That could turn out to be very bad for Ferris. He's already lacking in high end clients. Marner is by far his best one and he also has Hall, but it's a steep drop off after that, and if he messes up (and possibly loses) his crown jewel, what does that say to a guy like Hall?
 

4thline

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Honestly I can see why Marner might be a little cheesed. Matthews contract was almost certainly based on the idea that he could expect a 13x7 ish contract via offersheet, and Dubas accepted that valuation and scaled down with term to get to something we can afford.

Now Marner is up, and reportedly looking at offers in the 12x7 range. Less, but still putting him at 10.5 x 5+ if you use the same value scale. The difference is that Dubas seems to be rejecting that value scale and saying "No, this is where we have you, you can choose between being a Leaf and being paid at that level." He knows Marner wants to be a Leaf, both for personal and financial reasons and is using that.

To keep the relationship intact I think the reasoning has to be kept budgetary rather than hammering MM with the fact they value AM differently. "You're last, you wanted to be last, it's nothing personal and we love you but we had to put the team together and this is how much we can afford"

Coming down from 12 x 7 at the same per year rate as it takes from to go from 13 x 7 to Matthews contract it would leave us at 9.27 x 3. If you set Matthews RFA value at 13.5 x 7 and apply the scale it would be 8.3 x 3 to Marner
 
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Babcocks Marner

It's a magical time
Mar 3, 2015
4,109
609
Toronto
You talk about spin but also conveniently leave out that Matthews missed 14 games.
Yes, Matthews missed those games, but while the 21 point gap in career high is technically accurate it's also pretty misleading as a representation of their play.

In games both Marner and Matthews played in they had 76 and 73 points respectively.

I know I left out Matthews missing games... that was the point if you read it. I said it's disingenuous without context IE:Missing games
 

81Leafs50

Registered User
May 14, 2010
3,179
1,296
Toronto
And I'm suggesting you shouldn't use the mean across ELC years approach. Select an alternative averaging/weighting method.... or look at ELC year 3 only.

that is cherry picking stats.

you dont get anything in the NHL based on one season.

GM's do not negotiate on a body of work. You get inducted into the HHOF based on a body of work.
 

MyBudJT

Registered User
Mar 5, 2018
7,429
4,576
that is cherry picking stats.

you dont get anything in the NHL based on one season.

GM's do not negotiate on a body of work. You get inducted into the HHOF based on a body of work.

How did I cherry pick stats?

I was about to suggest that your age is showing, but noticed you've been on here for nearly 10 years :amazed:. You should be able to build more rational arguments than just pointing fingers at people (for things they're not even doing).

What does HHOF have to do with anything...? I'm sooo confused!!!
 

Cor

I am a bot
Jun 24, 2012
69,648
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AEF
And I'm suggesting you shouldn't use the mean across ELC years approach. Select an alternative averaging/weighting method.... or look at ELC year 3 only.

Basing a contract off of one season is a pretty poor idea.

I don’t disagree with a weighted average, but that’s hard to dictate and keep consistent.
 

MyBudJT

Registered User
Mar 5, 2018
7,429
4,576
Basing a contract off of one season is a pretty poor idea.

I don’t disagree with a weighted average, but that’s hard to dictate and keep consistent.

Sure, its not ideal. The point I was making was that ELC 3 is probably a better metric on who the better player is than just taking the mean from ELC 1 to ELC 3.
 

Notsince67

Papi and the Lamplighters
Apr 27, 2018
16,376
11,467
1. You guys may entertain the thought that the Dubes didn't get where he is today by ranking players based on points or points per game. (and you might want to ask yourself why you'd want a guy in charge of $50m decisions ranking players based on a 100yr old stat that has no context and arbitrarily decided that 2nd assists are worth the same as goals).

2. In your professional expertise you may think Dubas is a dummy for not just ranking players on points or PPG, and you are welcome do disagree, but you have to accept that he doesn't. These aren't the exact stats Dubas looks at, but they're certainly closer to the kind of thing he looks at, and it illustrates perfectly how each leaf has been valued:


Here is the ELC performance of all $5+m (or expected $5+m) forwards, in the last 3 years (including this one), sorted into approximate order and approximate groupings:

C McDavid (22, 12.5): 222gms, ES 16:13 (A+ qoc), 2.93p/60, 2.27p1/60, +3.5cfrel, +7.5xgfrel ---- PP 2:57, 5.85p/60, 3.20p1/60 -- PK 0:56
C Matthews (22, 11.6): 232gms, ES 15:13 (A qoc), 2.60p/60, 2.29p1/60, +0.8cfrel, +2.2xgfrel --- PP 2:22, 6.31p/60, 4.90p1/60 -- PK 0:01

W Marner (22, ????): 261gms, ES 14:19 (A qoc), 2.33p/60, 1.90p1/60, -0.5cfrel, -0.0xgfrel ------ PP 2:21, 7.02p/60, 4.59p1/60 -- PK 0:30
C Point (23, ????): 250gms, ES 14:59 (A qoc), 2.20p/60, 1.77p1/60, +0.4cfrel, +0.8xgfrel -------- PP 2:39, 5.79p/60, 3.44p1/60 -- PK 0:48
W Pastrnak (21, 6.7): 178gms, ES 13:46 (B+ qoc), 2.20p/60, 1.74p1/60, +3.9cfrel, +4.1xgfrel --- PP 1:45, 5.76p/60, 4.22p1/60 --- PK 0:01

W Rantanen (23, ???): 246gms, ES 15:07 (A+ qoc), 1.98p/60, 1.44p1/60, +1.7cfrel, -1.0xgfrel -- PP 3:29, 5.67p/60, 4.20p1/60 -- PK 0:01
C/W Aho (22, 8.5): 256gms, ES 14:40 (A qoc), 2.00p/60, 1.52p1/60, +2.1cfrel, +1.4xgfrel ------ PP 2:38, 5.07p/60, 3.47p1/60 -- PK 0:32
C/W Drai (22, 8.5): 204gms, ES 14:08 (A qoc), 2.04p/60, 1.50p1/60, +2.1cfrel, +3.2xgfrel ------ PP 2:34, 5.04p/60, 4.00p1/60 -- PK 0:12
C/W Nylander (22, 7.0): 198gms, ES 13:45 (B+ qoc), 2.09p/60, 1.54p1/60, +2.4cfrel, +2.0xgfrel - PP 2:14, 5.71p/60, 4.62p1/60 -- PK 0:01
W Ehlers (22, 6.0): 251gms, ES 13:52 (B+ qoc), 2.00p/60, 1.60p1/60, +2.1cfrel, +0.2xgfrel ----- PP 2:15, 3.73p/60, 2.77p1/60 --- PK 0:01
W Connor (23, ???): 201gms, ES 14:09 (A qoc), 2.00p/60, 1.60p1/60, -2.1cfrel, -2.6xgfrel ----- PP 2:44, 3.71p/60, 2.73p1/60 --- PK 0:20

C Eichel (22, 10.0): 209gms, ES 15:19 (B+ qoc), 1.88p/60, 1.44p1/60, -0.1cfrel, +0.1xgfrel ----- PP 3:10, 5.69p/60, 3.79p1/60 --- PK 0:28
C Larkin (22, 6.1): 246gms, ES 14:18 (B+ qoc), 1.86p/60, 1.43p1/60, +0.9cfrel, -2.1xgfrel ------ PP 1:58, 2.34p/60, 1.72p1/60 --- PK 0:46
W Meier (23, 6.0): 228gms, ES 13:20 (B+ qoc), 1.92p/60, 1.48p1/60, +3.2cfrel, +4.3xgfrel ----- PP 1:21, 3.49p/60, 3.29p1/60 --- PK 0:21
W Laine (21, ????): 260gms, ES 13:40 (B qoc), 1.86p/60, 1.57p1/60, -3.4cfrel, -6.6xgfrel ------ PP 3:03, 5.31p/60, 4.40p1/60 --- PK 0:01
C Schmaltz (23, 5.9): 183gms, ES 13:15 (B qoc), 1.86p/60, 1.41p1/60, -2.5cfrel, -3.0xgfrel ---- PP 2:09, 3.37p/60, 1.99p1/60 --- PK 0:38


1) There are two clear outliers on this list by these numbers, which I would probably just throw out when it comes to comparables:
  • Pastrnak seems to be well underpaid, and probably should have a caphit a couple mil higher. There is something to be said, though, about him possibly padding some numbers thanks to being on one of the most dominant lines in hockey. But he was even younger than most of these guys when he signed so this one just looks like a steal to me.
  • Eichel seems to be well overpaid. He is probably a couple mil overpaid. It could be argued that the Sabres kinda had to overpay him to make sure he stayed, though. Still, though, this shows the importance of being a true center.

2) Neither of the Leafs already signed are overpaid in the least. Their caphit slots in perfectly with their performance:
  • Matthews' performance is simply far, far better than anyone there other than McDavid. It's not even a close call - he's just been at a level his entire ELC that the others have only touched on.
  • Nylander performed at a very similar level as Drai and Aho on their ELC's. Drai and Aho, though, have a better case to make that they are legit centers, and as we know, centers get more than wingers, so their 1.5m higher caphit makes sense. Willy is just a bit more impressive than Ehlers there, and has more C potential, so the slightly higher caphit there also makes sense.
3) How do the current RFA slot in here?
  • Laine really shouldn't be paid more than $6m, in my opinion, but I'm sure he's asking for much more. He's one of the few 21yr olds here so that's a boost, but even his offensive numbers aren't as good as most of the guys here, and his possession metrics are horrific.
  • Connor as well I think the Jets really want to keep under Ehler's number. Their production is identical, but even though connor's qoc is tougher, it's still too huge a gap in possession numbers for my tastes. Also, Connor is a year older, making those numbers a bit less impressive. I'm sure the Jets really, really want to keep these guys under $6m and IMO they're right on both of them.
  • Rantanen is a really tough call. First thing to notice is that he's one of the "old" guys on this list, having no teenager years included in those numbers. But, on the other hand, he has played a legit topline role against topline competition consistently, unlike many of the others. BUT, more importantly for me, and probably surprising to some, is that his offensive productivity isn't as good as you'd think it was just looking at his standard numbers. And given that he's strictly a winger, I really wouldn't want to give him as much as Aho and Drai got. Heck I'd have a hard time giving him much more than Willy got.
  • Point is really damn good, though again he's one of the "old" guys with no teenage years counted in these numbers. Still, his production is a clear step up here from the bulk of the guys, and he playes legit topline C minutes against top compeition, and holds his own possession wise. 8.5 would have to be the floor here based on comparables I think, but I think 9.5 would probably be deserved.
  • Marner is awesome. His production is a clear step above everyone here not named McDavid or Matthews. He's also not one of the old guys, and (kinda) holds his own possession wise against top competition. Also, he's a pure winger, not a center. And, of course, he is a clear and large step down from Matthews productivity wise. Marner has only come close to matthews-level productivity in one of the three years, and that's the one he spent fulltime with Tavares. Looking at where he sits on this list, you can see why Dubas places his value at around $9.5m. And I'm sure, to get a deal done, Dubas would be willing to go to $10m or even a tick over and still feel ok with the deal, based on these comparables.

So while you may, in your professional experience, disagree with the kind of numbers Dubas values, and would prefer that the guy in charge of our billion dollar franchise would just sort players based on points already, you still should make yourself aware of the kind of numbers he has earned his way into the top job in the hockey world based on, and see how they perfectly explain Matthews' contract, Willy's contract, and the $10.4m in capsapce he has left himself to sign Marner.

Call Dubas an idiot if you'd like for not understanding that all he should be looking at is POINTS and nothing else when making $50m decisions for our team, but understand that the valuations make perfect sense from the data he values.


As for Marner, there's no reason to get all pissy and hate him for trying to bargain for more money. He has every right to do that, and no other big RFA has signed a deal yet, so there's nothing to criticize. That being said, I highly doubt that Marner will in the end refuse to accept being the 2nd highest paid winger in hockey, and the highest winger 2nd contract ever, and the 3rd highest 2nd contract ever behind only McDavid and Matthews. He'll sign for about $10m which will still be a bit of an overpay but should be fine.

Appreciate your post and I imagine there are many statistical variables that are used to draw up rankings. The problem is the weight given to them which is often treated around here as equal in nature given the posters agenda. All stats are useful but they must be weighted appropriately if used together. I once worked on a 32 variable model in a different field that had over a 99% confidence interval (impossible to do with the complexity of questions in hockey). 5 of the variables were by and large the huge driver of the result and the rest of them were added to achieve incrementally higher predictive efficacy. Strategically, I could focus on the five to make the bulk of any early warning system because all variables are somewhat linked and moved in similar directions, though in unsynchronized timeline frames.
For pricing decisions, I'm sure you can appreciate that not all decisions can be made at the microlevel uniformly because not all factors can be quantified appropriately. A good example with the leafs is the Codi Ceci contract. I am hugely skeptical of it in that I am pretty certain that there are few models that would yield a 4.5MM contract. Dubas may have had other considerations in determining this and that is fair. My guess is that had the Barrie deal been done and Zaitsevs performance had been better and was worth more on the market, Ceci would never had been signed at that amount. 2 defensive players would make zero dent on the statistical pool of all dmen in the league but their relative worth to the team had a profound effect on decisioning. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

Thematically if I then focus on our center men, it makes some sense that notionally the relative value of Matthews probably rises significantly if Tavares was not on the team. This just makes common sense. What makes less sense is whether a valuation model of Matthews changes or more importantly, whether the decision to pay Matthews what he got paid would change even if the valuation model changed, given the team had no Tavares. Like I said earlier...nothing happens in a vacuum.

So onto Marner.
Year 1, 2, and 3 would likely be weighted differently. Contracts are about the future and the predictive nature of a rookie year probably have an attenuated value. Goals are great but points have value too, especially primary points that have a better predictive value to future performance. A low probability to injury might factor into a decision here. Uniqueness in skill set (puck movement of forwards is only rivaled by Nylander but high dangerzone passes is heads and tails above others.... to name a few)

I don't want to put you into a position to justify statistically why you feel a 10MM contract is appropriate. I actually agree that on a macro basis, $10yr x 8 would be entirely appropriate for a Marner if we eliminate the discussion of internal factors. Id like to know qualitatively what your comfort level of contract ranges are for 5-6 year range is including internal factors. If you don't want to stick ypur neck out in this cesspool of haters, I understand
 

81Leafs50

Registered User
May 14, 2010
3,179
1,296
Toronto
How did I cherry pick stats?

I was about to suggest that your age is showing, but noticed you've been on here for nearly 10 years :amazed:. You should be able to build more rational arguments than just pointing fingers at people (for things they're not even doing).

What does HHOF have to do with anything...? I'm sooo confused!!!

everything is based on a body of work. A player is judged by their career numbers.

Why would anyone throw away 2016-2017 and 2017-2018 and just look at last season to judge a player? that is a very small sample size. Specially if the player didnt play all 82 games.

You get it now?
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
41,965
12,375
Honestly I can see why Marner might be a little cheesed. Matthews contract was almost certainly based on the idea that he could expect a 13x7 ish contract via offersheet, and Dubas accepted that valuation and scaled down with term to get to something we can afford.

Now Marner is up, and reportedly looking at offers in the 12x7 range. Less, but still putting him at 10.5 x 5+ if you use the same value scale. The difference is that Dubas seems to be rejecting that value scale and saying "No, this is where we have you, you can choose between being a Leaf and being paid at that level." He knows Marner wants to be a Leaf, both for personal and financial reasons and is using that.

To keep the relationship intact I think the reasoning has to be kept budgetary rather than hammering MM with the fact they value AM differently. "You're last, you wanted to be last, it's nothing personal and we love you but we had to put the team together and this is how much we can afford"

Coming down from 12 x 7 at the same per year rate as it takes from to go from 13 x 7 to Matthews contract it would leave us at 9.27 x 3. If you set Matthews RFA value at 13.5 x 7 and apply the scale it would be 8.3 x 3 to Marner

It's always magical justification.... Agents use advanced stats and every metric going. Fans fall in love with players. Look, you just fashioned a narrative where there is a 13m offersheet. Truth of the matter is the best GMs don't pay for stats, they pay for production because production wins games. You don't produce, you probably don't win. Does the player produce at a higher level in the PO? That is something you can pay for as well. Sure being a 2 way player is nice and a power forward or C may come at a bit of premium but once you fall down the rabbit hole of advanced stats, it's a slippery slope into murky waters that does not increase your odds of winning, but most certainly, increases your odds of paying more out on contracts.

It reminds of little children arguing and inventing greater and more epic super powers to get the final say in who is better.
 

81Leafs50

Registered User
May 14, 2010
3,179
1,296
Toronto
upload_2019-7-17_10-22-16.png


11th best player, gets 11th best money.

Every player listed gets paid 9.5M or less except for McDavid and Kane.

Marner is up shit creek without a paddle.
 

nuck

Schrodingers Cat
Aug 18, 2005
11,606
2,650
Sure, its not ideal. The point I was making was that ELC 3 is probably a better metric on who the better player is than just taking the mean from ELC 1 to ELC 3.

I agree. Especially since year 1 and even year 2 are so largely affected by use and opportunity. ie Pasta v Nylander. As a statistical predictor reduced minutes and often experimental line mates really mess with the value of first 3 year averages.
 
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zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
66,937
36,957
Appreciate your post and I imagine there are many statistical variables that are used to draw up rankings. The problem is the weight given to them which is often treated around here as equal in nature given the posters agenda. All stats are useful but they must be weighted appropriately if used together. I once worked on a 32 variable model in a different field that had over a 99% confidence interval (impossible to do with the complexity of questions in hockey). 5 of the variables were by and large the huge driver of the result and the rest of them were added to achieve incrementally higher predictive efficacy. Strategically, I could focus on the five to make the bulk of any early warning system because all variables are somewhat linked and moved in similar directions, though in unsynchronized timeline frames.
For pricing decisions, I'm sure you can appreciate that not all decisions can be made at the microlevel uniformly because not all factors can be quantified appropriately. A good example with the leafs is the Codi Ceci contract. I am hugely skeptical of it in that I am pretty certain that there are few models that would yield a 4.5MM contract. Dubas may have had other considerations in determining this and that is fair. My guess is that had the Barrie deal been done and Zaitsevs performance had been better and was worth more on the market, Ceci would never had been signed at that amount. 2 defensive players would make zero dent on the statistical pool of all dmen in the league but their relative worth to the team had a profound effect on decisioning. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

Thematically if I then focus on our center men, it makes some sense that notionally the relative value of Matthews probably rises significantly if Tavares was not on the team. This just makes common sense. What makes less sense is whether a valuation model of Matthews changes or more importantly, whether the decision to pay Matthews what he got paid would change even if the valuation model changed, given the team had no Tavares. Like I said earlier...nothing happens in a vacuum.

So onto Marner.
Year 1, 2, and 3 would likely be weighted differently. Contracts are about the future and the predictive nature of a rookie year probably have an attenuated value. Goals are great but points have value too, especially primary points that have a better predictive value to future performance. A low probability to injury might factor into a decision here. Uniqueness in skill set (puck movement of forwards is only rivaled by Nylander but high dangerzone passes is heads and tails above others.... to name a few)

I don't want to put you into a position to justify statistically why you feel a 10MM contract is appropriate. I actually agree that on a macro basis, $10yr x 8 would be entirely appropriate for a Marner if we eliminate the discussion of internal factors. Id like to know qualitatively what your comfort level of contract ranges are for 5-6 year range is including internal factors. If you don't want to stick ypur neck out in this cesspool of haters, I understand

Tbh I think the number I gave included the value I place on what you call internal factors. I.e. I think he's probably worth about exactly 9.5m, but given his "internal factors" (i.e. charisma, grit, uniqueness, etc) he's not a guy I'd take a hardline on, and would bump that up into the 10-10.5 range if necessary.
 

4thline

Registered User
Jul 18, 2014
14,604
9,993
Waterloo
It's always magical justification.... Agents use advanced stats and every metric going. Fans fall in love with players. Look, you just fashioned a narrative where there is a 13m offersheet.

Labour markets and economic concepts could be considered complicated, but I wouldn't consider them magical
 
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