Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XIII

[Leaf4Life79]

Just sign already!!!

 

[ToneDog]

I think you need to dial back your inner Paul a little. Aho is a C and scores more goals.

Aho has also tasted round 3 of the playoffs. Round 3 where no Mitch, Willie or Matty have boldly gone.

 

[HomerJLeafs]

I DONT CARE ANYMORE

 

[Bluelines]

Oh, total elc points are now the determining factor for Marner vs Aho?

Ok. Let's look at Matthews points, and compare him to players that signed the same cap percentage. Oh, let me guess.... with Matthews it won't be just about points... right?

Which round you're drafted in matters? Ok. Why was 24 year old seventh rounder Johnsson paid a very similar contract as first round pick 21 year old Kapanen, after pretty much identical rookie years?

We cant't just keep changing the metrics for how players get paid. There NEEDS to be consistency.

Aho is a center who scores more goals while playing with way worse line mates than Marner. That balances out Marner getting more points and less PP time.

It's VERY debatable who deserves the bigger contract.

Aho signed for 8.5x5

Sure there needs to be consistency but there wont be, Leafs wanted to use Pasternak as the baseline for Nylanders contract and Nylander's camp probably said what is done on other teams does not affect what our guy is worth on the Leafs, then the Matthews camp said that guy in Edmonton sets the market for centers. the only consistency you will ever see in a negotiation is the players agent and the NHLPA will use what ever metric they can, to inflate their clients price tag and the team will do the same to offer the least amount.

 

[Notsince67]

What, they're not comparable because YOU said so?

That's how it works?

Again, Aho plays center and scores more goals with far worse linemates. Marner gets more points (playing with TAVARES) with less pp time. Pretty much balances out.

Irrelevant. Prove to me that goals are paid at a premium to primary points. Prove to me that quality of team mates have any bearing to contracts. There is no formula and in no world is Aho a better hockey player than Marner.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Sure there needs to be consistency but there wont be, Leafs wanted to use Pasternak as the baseline for Nylanders contract and Nylander's camp probably said what is done on other teams does not affect what our guy is worth on the Leafs, then the Matthews camp said that guy in Edmonton sets the market for centers. the only consistency you will ever see in a negotiation is the players agent and the NHLPA will use what ever metric they can, to inflate their clients price tag and the team will do the same to offer the least amount.

Do you really see Marner signing for something like 8.5x5? Like, ever?

Why can't it ever be the LEAF player who signs for something like 8.5x5 while the other comparables sign for far more? Why do the leafs always pay more than comparables?

 

[ToneDog]

What, they're not comparable because YOU said so?

That's how it works?

Again, Aho plays center and scores more goals with far worse linemates. Marner gets more points (playing with TAVARES) with less pp time. Pretty much balances out.

Aho does not accept Bergevin's OS if he is a Leaf. As a Leaf, If you take Aho's 8.5M and add say $300-$500K because Mitch has more points than Aho and then add the standard 8-10% Dubas over payment you get close to what Mitch is asking for.

 

[ToneDog]

Do you really see Marner signing for something like 8.5x5? Like, ever?

Why can't it ever be the LEAF player who signs for something like 8.5x5 while the other comparables sign for far more? Why do the leafs always pay more than comparables?

You need to go back to the Punch Imlach era where Leaf players we treated like crap and won Cups.

 

[ImpartialNHLfan]

Do you really see Marner signing for something like 8.5x5? Like, ever?

Why can't it ever be the LEAF player who signs for something like 8.5x5 while the other comparables sign for far more? Why do the leafs always pay more than comparables?

Because our GM downright sucks at his job.

 

[Bluelines]

What, they're not comparable because YOU said so?

That's how it works?

Again, Aho plays center and scores more goals with far worse linemates. Marner gets more points (playing with TAVARES) with less pp time. Pretty much balances out.

He played wing for 2 of his 3 seasons. Scored 24G, 29G and 30G, not a huge difference in production between wing and center.

I don't think Ferland is far worse than Hyman. Teravainen while he's no Tavares is no chopped liver either, he's a pretty decent player.

"far worse" may be a bit of an over statement.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Irrelevant. Prove to me that goals are paid at a premium to primary points. Prove to me that quality of team mates have any bearing to contracts. There is no formula and in no world is Aho a better hockey player than Marner.

My problem is that those are the excuses for why other leaf players were overpaid. I'm just applying those arguments now to Aho vs Marner.

With Matthews, it was "goals matter more than points." That's what everybody said. So I'm now just applying that to Aho vs Marner. Aho scores more goals.

With Nylander vs Pastrnak, I was told that Pasta is on the best line in hockey, so his stats are inflated. I'm now just applying that argument to Aho vs Marner. Marner plays with TAVARES for heavens sake.

If you agree that Matthews and Nylander are heavily overpaid, then at least you're consistent in your argument. I'll give you that.

But it seems with each new leaf contract, the entire metric for how a player should be paid changes entirely.

 

[socko]

I think you need to dial back your inner Paul a little. Aho is a C and scores more goals.

Yeah, I watched a lot of Carolina because of the rumors, thank god we didn't get Pesce, and Aho is far and away their best player. It's not even close. His numbers fell off a little when they took Teravainen off his line, no doubt trying to even out the scoring a little bit. Aho is a great player.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Because our GM downright sucks at his job.

How would a good GM force players into taking less? Our stars don't want to take any discounts

 

[Marshy]

When Marner doesnt sign until training camp....who has no more leverage? Marner? Didnt work with Willy

Leverage doesn't change for Marner camp between now and the regular season. Once the season starts Marner runs out of time to play for the Leafs this year. Therefore he can sit the season and watch his escalating cap hit making him less desirable for teams to trade for him.

 

[Bluelines]

Do you really see Marner signing for something like 8.5x5? Like, ever?

Why can't it ever be the LEAF player who signs for something like 8.5x5 while the other comparables sign for far more? Why do the leafs always pay more than comparables?

No I don't see that ever for Mitch and why do they pay more? Probably because the Toronto GM's lack the stones to stand up to players who take on the perceived persona of a hockey god in Toronto. Dubas lost his cost structure when he caved with Nylander. Nylander is at best our 5th or 6th best player (Matthews, Tavares, Mitch, Andersen, Rielly) and Dubas did not think he had the leverage to make the kid sit for a season.

I posted this before but I think a fair contract sits somewhere between $7.3 mil and $10.8 mil but I don't think money is the sticking point, its term IMO

It a pretty simple calculation what Marner should be worth, Aho set the market for 21 year old wingers @ $8.454 per year. Granted Aho played center last year but 66.6% of his career was at RW. IMO his contract is based on mostly winger production.

• If you covet goals and use Aho as the baseline Marner should be at $7,326,800 per year.
• If you covet points and use Aho as the baseline Marner should be at $9,574,410 per year.
• If you covet assists and use Aho as the baseline Marner should be at $10,846642 per year.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

How would a good GM force players into taking less? Our stars don't want to take any discounts

When comparing goal scorers, the player that gets way more goals is better. It doesn't matter how he gets them.

When comparing GM's, the gm that signs his players to way cheaper contracts is better. It doesn't matter how he gets the players to sign the contract.

It's a silly argument to suggest "It's not dubas's fault that he pays his players far more than other gm's give comparables." That's SPECIFICALLY his job.

 

[ImpartialNHLfan]

How would a good GM force players into taking less? Our stars don't want to take any discounts

It's a GM's job to get his players to "buy in". If they refuse then trade them. Look at Boston, they've traded plenty of stars and they turned out just fine.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

No I don't see that ever for Mitch and why do they pay more? Probably because the Toronto GM's lack the stones to stand up to players who take on the perceived persona of a hockey god in Toronto. Dubas lost his cost structure when he caved with Nylander. Nylander is at best our 5th or 6th best player (Matthews, Tavares, Mitch, Andersen, Rielly) and Dubas did not think he had the leverage to make the kid sit for a season.

I posted this before but I think a fair contract sits somewhere between $7.3 mil and $10.8 mil but I don't think money is the sticking point, its term IMO

It a pretty simple calculation what Marner should be worth, Aho set the market for 21 year old wingers @ $8.454 per year. Granted Aho played center last year but 66.6% of his career was at RW. IMO his contract is based on mostly winger production.

• If you covet goals and use Aho as the baseline Marner should be at $7,326,800 per year.
• If you covet points and use Aho as the baseline Marner should be at $9,574,410 per year.
• If you covet assists and use Aho as the baseline Marner should be at $10,846642 per year.

On the Matthews contract (last star player contract given out by Dubas), it was SPECIFICALLY based on goals. Why should that change now with Marner?

 

[Notsince67]

Leverage doesn't change for Marner camp between now and the regular season. Once the season starts Marner runs out of time to play for the Leafs this year. Therefore he can sit the season and watch his escalating cap hit making him less desirable for teams to trade for him.

Except that if Marner doesnt play, Dubas will be under increased scrutiny of why he didnt get it done. Should the leafs regress, Dubas will be fired and will unlikely procure another gm job. Marner will play again.

 

[Macallan18]

I DONT CARE ANYMORE

I don't believe you.

 

[CelticDruid]

 

[Macallan18]

You need to go back to the Punch Imlach era where Leaf players we treated like crap and won Cups.

Punch was so cool.
So I am from Brantford, Ontario. Unknown little hockey town.
When the Sabres franchise was started, Punch was the first coach. So the Sabres would come to Brantford to play the Penguins, who had their summer camp here. First game, between periods, people lined up to talk to Punch. And he stayed there the whole bloody intermission to talk to us.
Always had a soft spot in my heart for him after that.
ps, daydrinking, re-read the post, apoligize for any typos or poor grammar.

 

[ToneDog]

Punch was so cool.
So I am from Brantford, Ontario. Unknown little hockey town.
When the Sabres franchise was started, Punch was the first coach. So the Sabres would come to Brantford to play the Penguins, who had their summer camp here. First game, between periods, people lined up to talk to Punch. And he stayed there the whole bloody intermission to talk to us.
Always had a soft spot in my heart for him after that.
ps, daydrinking, re-read the post, apoligize for any typos or poor grammar.

When I hear Brantford, Allan Bester comes to mind.

 

[The Man with a Plan]

But he is worth 11 and it is pretty clear that gets it done so get it done and go win the championship

I love mitch but no way in hell is he worth 11 million. Kutch is at 9.5 and easily outpaces him. Aho is very comparable and got 8.5

He is not worth AM money as he is not a 22 year old 40 goal scoring 1C

If he wants a record setting payday then sign a deal that doesnt hamstring the entire team and earn it on his next deal or he can join Phil in Az for all I care.

Crest on the front before the name on the back.

 

[Marshy]

Except that if Marner doesnt play, Dubas will be under increased scrutiny of why he didnt get it done. Should the leafs regress, Dubas will be fired and will unlikely procure another gm job. Marner will play again.

Which type of firing would you pick in his shoes? Overpaying for Marner or not paying him at all? Sucks that paying fairly doesn't appear possible.

GMing is hard.