Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion - Winter is coming

Who signs 1st.


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Nithoniniel

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Sep 7, 2012
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At what threshold. Marner will get paid more than Gauthier and Spezza who are centers. As for goals, are you prepared to go on the record to state that Cam Atkinson is better than Marner and worth more because he had more goals last year?
WHAT IS THE MARK? If Marner puts up 102 points and 35 goals vs Matthews at 88 points and 47 goals would you consider that an equal perform, an under perform or an over perform?
No offense, but this comes across as arguing just to argue. There's no threshold. There's a premium on centers and goalscoring. No, it doesn't make Atkinson worth more than Marner. It would make Atkinson worth more than a winger with similar points but less goals.

You accused Dekes of being purposefully obtuse. The above quote would be a perfect example of that, in the very same post no less. If you start comparing Marner to Gauthier, you've lost any imaginable high ground.
 

nobody

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You are not understanding. I have already acknowledged that so stop dodging. Are you saying that it is perfectly ok to pay Matthews 1.5mm more knowing that Marner will outperform him. You stepped into the conversation so you must have an opinion. We are at the beginning of a season. Marner has been the teams points leader for 2 years. What will a third tell you? Anything?
Yes it is okay to pay Matty more even if Marner produces more points because Auston himself will be a PPG+ guy who will put up significant more goal totals.
 

Notsince67

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Where does that number (15.9) come from ?

What is the 4 year deal for, he didn't sign a 4 year deal ?
League maximum annual amount. I am addressing speculation on term differences by using a comparative benchmark
 

18leafsfan18

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League maximum annual amount. I am addressing speculation on term differences by using a comparative benchmark

15.9 was the league max last year (@79.5 Cap Ceiling). Still have no clue what that has to do with anything, no player is paid at league maximum.

How does 15.9 for 8 years turn into 10.525 for 4 years ?
 

Notsince67

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No offense, but this comes across as arguing just to argue. There's no threshold. There's a premium on centers and goalscoring. No, it doesn't make Atkinson worth more than Marner. It would make Atkinson worth more than a winger with similar points but less goals.

You accused Dekes of being purposefully obtuse. The above quote would be a perfect example of that, in the very same post no less. If you start comparing Marner to Gauthier, you've lost any imaginable high ground.
Not really here. The valuation process around here is an ever moving target. Not trying to be painfully exact here. I used a pretty big point differential as an example. It is my impression here that points being argued are being mixed like a casarole and are being lost. I have been clear that i think both players are elite. I am making an attempt at roughly quantifying the issues. Goals vs points centers vs wingers, market value vs team contribution, injuries...
If people feel passionately enough to slam Marner with a "pick an issue", what exactly is the purpose of a discussion? One where everyone just performs as if were a battle rap competition? If you have an issue with anything specific, go at it. To generally dismiss all points with a sweep of your hand really doesnt advance a thing...or maybe i am missing something. Please explain.
 
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Notsince67

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Yes it is okay to pay Matty more even if Marner produces more points because Auston himself will be a PPG+ guy who will put up significant more goal totals.
Fair and honest opinion though we disagree. Kudos for not hedging
 

ULF_55

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I said that elite players are opportunist situations. Which goalie did you have in mind and how many extra goals will that goalie prevent that will offer up a clear advantage to losing marner. Which is the best defenseman that you demand a team to give up for Marner. My point is that you need a comparably elite player in exchange for Marner and you haven't proposed one. I would be curious to see what you propose.

Obviously, the other team would have to value marner high enough to give up a 1st. pairing defender.

Depend on the different positions posters take with regards to marner, some teams would give up any player on their team if they believe he's equivalent to Matthews. So if that is one's position, (I believe you are in this camp) you could name probably at least 15 #1 defenders in the league, and that defender would be making much less than the amount Matthews is making (the amount some suggest marner is holding out for).

I'd probably take one of those, in addition to that player I'd have cap room left to address defenders going forward. If they over pay on marner someone has to go in the next couple of years on defense and they will have to back fill with prospects or depth defenders.

If his value isn't that high, you shouldn't give in to his demand but if he won't budge you move him for valuable assets, which could include a combination of players, picks, prospects. Without much thought a defender, prospect and pick from Carolina might work ('Canes have an extra 1st.). You could go around the league looking for a similar return.

I'd rather marner signs to a workable contract in Toronto, but if it just doesn't work (and there is a point where it won't) you move on and put the franchise 1st., as all team fans should demand.


EDIT: Seems like a good poll question, Would you trade Marner if it made the team better? Y/N
 
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MyBudJT

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No offense, but this comes across as arguing just to argue. There's no threshold. There's a premium on centers and goalscoring. No, it doesn't make Atkinson worth more than Marner. It would make Atkinson worth more than a winger with similar points but less goals.

You accused Dekes of being purposefully obtuse. The above quote would be a perfect example of that, in the very same post no less. If you start comparing Marner to Gauthier, you've lost any imaginable high ground.

I think he was trying to make a point, a valid one at that. Oddly, it seems to have struck a few nerves around here.
 

therealkoho

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Jul 10, 2009
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Something that baffles me!

He won't work-out with the Leafs because he doesn't have a contract, and presumably to avoid any career threatening injuries that would effect his signing a long term deal! Is there a rule somewhere that say's it can't happen in Zurich?
 

18leafsfan18

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Something that baffles me!

He won't work-out with the Leafs because he doesn't have a contract, and presumably to avoid any career threatening injuries that would effect his signing a long term deal! Is there a rule somewhere that say's it can't happen in Zurich?

IMO the training camp in Zurich was a last stab at leverage.

I still think he signs before Leafs training camp.
 
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CantLoseWithMatthews

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Sep 28, 2015
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I think he was trying to make a point, a valid one at that. Oddly, it seems to have struck a few nerves around here.
What is the valid point? That Marner deserves to be paid more than Gauthier despite the positional disadvantage? I don't think that's necessary or worthwhile in the least
 

ACC1224

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Something that baffles me!

He won't work-out with the Leafs because he doesn't have a contract, and presumably to avoid any career threatening injuries that would effect his signing a long term deal! Is there a rule somewhere that say's it can't happen in Zurich?
Incorrect presumption.
He won't attend camp so his teammates won't have to put up with the distraction of him being there.
 
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MyBudJT

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Yeah, kind of like the suggestion of putting him on the 3rd. line because they'd have 3 1st. lines because he'd still score 94 points playing with 3rd. liners.

:huh:

What is the valid point? That Marner deserves to be paid more than Gauthier despite the positional disadvantage? I don't think that's necessary or worthwhile in the least

'What premium value do you put on:

A) Centers
B) Goal Scorers'

Lets also not pretend like 26 goals be a 21 year old player is poor, or anything too. Being so young, it would be silly not to expect him to become a 30 goal scorer at some point, too. Lets not pretend that Marner is a pure playmaker....
 

Go4soda

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IMO the training camp in Zurich was a last stab at leverage.

I still think he signs before Leafs training camp.
I agree he re-ups before camp. Probably 11th hour.
My fear is that it doesn’t end there. As soon as he signs, Paul marner starts making it clear through the media that they didn’t get fair value, and thus, the campaign begins where the camp starts to threaten their way out of town unless they are grossly overpaid on the next deal to “supplement” losses from this deal ala Jose Bautista.
I hope that’s not the plan. This team won’t need that distraction.
 
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Suntouchable13

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Dec 20, 2003
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:huh:



'What premium value do you put on:

A) Centers
B) Goal Scorers'

Lets also not pretend like 26 goals be a 21 year old player is poor, or anything too. Being so young, it would be silly not to expect him to become a 30 goal scorer at some point, too. Lets not pretend that Marner is a pure playmaker....

If he wants to get paid like Matthews, it will not work.
 
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ULF_55

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:huh:



'What premium value do you put on:

A) Centers
B) Goal Scorers'

Lets also not pretend like 26 goals be a 21 year old player is poor, or anything too. Being so young, it would be silly not to expect him to become a 30 goal scorer at some point, too. Lets not pretend that Marner is a pure playmaker....

Yes, he's only 4 months older than Matthews.

It isn't unreasonable to expect both to become better goal scorers.
 

18leafsfan18

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I agree he re-ups before camp. Probably 11th hour.
My fear is that it doesn’t end there. As soon as he signs, Paul marner starts making it clear through the media that they didn’t get fair value, and thus, the campaign begins where the camp starts to threaten their way out of town unless they are grossly overpaid on the next deal to “supplement” losses from this deal ala Jose Bautista.
I hope that’s not the plan. This team won’t need that distraction.

If that were to happen you ship him out of town ASAP, although his value might be diminished if other teams start to hear such things.
 
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Nineteen67

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Something that baffles me!

He won't work-out with the Leafs because he doesn't have a contract, and presumably to avoid any career threatening injuries that would effect his signing a long term deal! Is there a rule somewhere that say's it can't happen in Zurich?

He could buy insurance to practice and train in Toronto or anywhere else. I think he picked Zurich so it’s not as big a distraction to the Leafs and him if he was in southern Ontario.
I don’t know if the Leafs would want unsigned players at their camp.
 

MyBudJT

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Mar 5, 2018
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Yes, he's only 4 months older than Matthews.

It isn't unreasonable to expect both to become better goal scorers.

I'm not even comparing him to Matthews right now.... Why are people bringing Matthews back into this?

All I've said was that NotSince67 raised a valid question, "What value/premium do you put on Centermen and Goalscorers"?

Not once did I mention Matthews.
 
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