Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion - Winter is coming

[PromisedLand]

And again, you leave out the rest of the quote from August 2018, that shows that Dubas was already negotiating.

“They’re going back and forth with my agent from what I hear."

So he is taking it slow and negotiating? So Nylander was lying?

 

[Dekes For Days]

It's nice to see that nobody in this thread can read and completely ignored that the 10m x 3/15m QO speculation was months old and irrelevant, even if true.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So he is taking it slow and negotiating? So Nylander was lying?

No, you're just reading into a specific part of the quote and applying your own assumption that isn't supported.

 

[Dekes For Days]

How on earth is Marner better than Point?

ES P/GP over their ELCs:

Marner - 0.63
Point - 0.59

And Marner was better on the PP. Toronto has just had so few PP opportunities, and people don't realize how much PP time swings raw production.

And you can't even use the "played next to Kucherov" because Marner had JT.

How are these equatable?

 

[Once]

Johnston has said that he thinks it would affect negotiations and therefore would be better off being delayed until after Marner is signed. That is pretty strong evidence that Johnston doesn't think it will bother Mitch Marner and therefore create a divide in the locker room - or else it would still bother him after the contract is signed, but that it will cause problems with negotiating with the Marner camp - which makes perfect sense if you view the Marner camp's negotiations as not based on rationality but instead being driven by a deep seeded anger (mainly coming from Paul) that Marner hasn't been respected - not now - and not when he was growing up. If you choose not to believe that is what is going on with these negotiations, that is fine. But I do believe it, and it was the reason why last summer when everyone felt that Marner's negotiations were going to be a piece of cake, I said that Marner's negotiations were going to be brutal.

So Marner won't sign because Paul is insecure? Whats the expectation? 11 x 5?

 

[PromisedLand]

Johnston has said that he thinks it would affect negotiations and therefore would be better off being delayed until after Marner is signed. That is pretty strong evidence that Johnston doesn't think it will bother Mitch Marner and therefore create a divide in the locker room - or else it would still bother him after the contract is signed, but that it will cause problems with negotiating with the Marner camp - which makes perfect sense if you view the Marner camp's negotiations as not based on rationality but instead being driven by a deep seeded anger (mainly coming from Paul) that Marner hasn't been respected - not now - and not when he was growing up. If you choose not to believe that is what is going on with these negotiations, that is fine. But I do believe it, and it was the reason why last summer when everyone felt that Marner's negotiations were going to be a piece of cake, I said that Marner's negotiations were going to be brutal.

Not too sure how much of it is true. Marner is well respected within the organization; he is loved by his team mates; and if you look at Babcock's interviews he has more positive things to say about Marner than anybody else on the team not named Marleau and Hyman.

Even in the league opposition coaches sing praises of Marner

Cassidy is a huge Marner fanboy; and has talked on length about how he game plans against marner especially. I could post many examples but a quick google search will give you all the examples you need.

Cooper said Marner is one of the smartest players ever in NHL


Note sure where the "disrespect" element is coming from for Paul Marner. In the entire League mitch is respected; heck his line was the most dangerous leafs line entire last season; so not sure where this "disrespect" mumbo-jumbo that is cooked up in the media is coming from

 

[PromisedLand]

No, you're just reading into a specific part of the quote and applying your own assumption that isn't supported.

It is more like you do not like that Nylander said that Kyle wanted to take things slow; and want to absolve Dubas of all the wrongs he did while negotiating with Nylander; eventhough Dubas admitted himself that he screwed up.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It is more like you do not like that Nylander said that Kyle wanted to take things slow

It's literally in the article you posted... It's the exact same quote. You're just cutting it off.

You seem to think "taking things slow" means "not trying", when there is zero evidence of that, and there is clear evidence of the opposite. "Taking things slow" means not rushing into things July 1st, and taking the time to make an educated analysis and decision after just becoming GM.

even though Dubas admitted himself that he screwed up.

He shouldered the responsibility like a great leader. We don't know what he means by that. You're making your own assumptions again.

 

[RoadWarrior]

I find Team Marner is really misplaying the whole Mitch Marner vs Auston Matthews angle in this market. As much soft power and brand image Marner's built for himself the past few years with his high energy, fun loving persona, there's something very annoying about the way they have complained so much and it's all basically based on the fact that the Leafs seem to have historically prioritized Matthews over him.

So far, using Dreger and the agent as mouthpieces, Team Marner has complaining publicly about the captaincy conversation, complained about the lack of Schedule A bonuses negotiated under Lou, militant no home town discount policy, refusal to negotiate in season, insistence on negotiating last, complained about the negotiation process the day Auston Matthews re-signed, made the threat of an offer sheet, made the threat of an offer sheet tour on less, and finally, the threat of going to Switzerland to the ZSC Lions to "train."

I just have a hard time seeing this player and his entourage being very fun to deal with over the long term. I don't get the sense it's going to mellow out.

Which is precisely why he wasn’t offer sheeted over the summer. No manager in the league wants to deal with that.

Quite frankly it seems like the Marner camp just isn’t living in reality.

He wants to be the highest paid winger in the league with one point per game season behind him and no playoff success.

Unless they’re holding back evidence that he’s the next Gretzky it isn’t going to happen.

 

[biotk]

So Marner won't sign because Paul is insecure? Whats the expectation? 11 x 5?

According to Mirtle they want the Matthews contract (if it is for longer or shorter term the AAV would be adjusted)

 

[ElbowLander]

So that's why McAvoy and Carlo are holding out? No greedy kids?

Obviously Im talking about their stars. Pasta,Bergeron, Marchand, Rask, Chara even the deal Krug took all were below market. Even if Mcavoy and carlo are holding out its not for 15 million

 

[PromisedLand]

It's literally in the article you posted... It's the exact same quote. You're just cutting it off.

You seem to think "taking things slow" means "not trying", when there is zero evidence of that, and there is clear evidence of the opposite. "Taking things slow" means not rushing into things July 1st, and taking the time to make an educated analysis and decision after just becoming GM.


He shouldered the responsibility like a great leader. We don't know what he means by that. You're making your own assumptions again.

LOL great leader my ass

Nylander clearly said "I've said it all along Kyle wanted to take things slow"

then "my agent and he are going at it" apparently negates Nylander saying dubas wanted to take things slow? what?

Dubas himself has admitted that he screwed up; but to you it means "great leadership"

serious question: are you related to dubas or something?

 

[axlrose87]

Paul can feel whatever he wants; Paul doesn't put on #16 and step on the ice or shares the locker room with #34 so quite frankly it is a non-issue IMO.

as long as players don't have issue with each other who cares. Johnston's shtick comes out as Marner has an issue; and this would create a divide in the locker room; which isn't good for a healthy locker room and positive mindset heading into games

Marner does have an issue.
He seems to be a very very jealous person based on these negotiations and the information that has leaked out.
It seems the only way he will be happy is if he is the leafs highest paid player.
Acknowledging that, I don't think we ever see marner wear the maple leaf again.

 

[biotk]

Note sure where the "disrespect" element is coming from for Paul Marner. In the entire League mitch is respected; heck his line was the most dangerous leafs line entire last season; so not sure where this "disrespect" mumbo-jumbo that is cooked up in the media is coming from

You are not sure where it comes from?

When Marner was little people thought that McDavid was a better hockey player. This has continued his whole life - to this day. Disrespect.
Then the Leafs drafted Marner but didn't give him the full bonuses on that contract. Disrespect.
Then the Leafs sent him back to junior instead of playing him on the crap tank team, which likely would have damaged his development (not to mention that it would have led to signing his first post ELC contract a year earlier and for way, way less). Disrespect.
Then the Leafs sometimes played him on the fourth line. Disrespect.
And Matthews got more of the attention. Disrespect.
And when there was talk about a Leafs' captain, Marner's name often either didn't come up or came up after players like Matthews. Disrespect.

 

[ToneDog]

You are not sure where it comes from?

When Marner was little people thought that McDavid was a better hockey player. This has continued his whole life - to this day. Disrespect.
Then the Leafs drafted Marner but didn't give him the full bonuses on that contract. Disrespect.
Then the Leafs sent him back to junior instead of playing him on the crap tank team, which likely would have damaged his development (not to mention that it would have led to signing his first post ELC contract a year earlier and for way, way less). Disrespect.
Then the Leafs sometimes played him on the fourth line. Disrespect.
And Matthews got more of the attention. Disrespect.
And when there was talk about a Leafs' captain, Marner's name often either didn't come up or came up after players like Matthews. Disrespect.

If I felt so disrespected at work, I would look for another place of employment. Too bad no other team will pay his ask and compensate the Leafs.

 

[Brown Dog]

The more I think of this, the more I see the genius of Marner's position to force a crazy lucrative deal.

On the surface it seems like Marner has minimal leverage. But maybe he has the most important leverage of all--the Leafs can't replace him if they don't sign him. They simply cannot replace him as a player and as an asset.

What if Marner insists on Matthews' contact? Or 3 years x $11 million? Too rich? Ok, what do you do?

There is no offer sheet coming, so no 4 unprotected first rounders. With those crazy demands you probably can't trade him for fair value. What if the best trade you can pull off is a first and a handful of decent prospects?

So you let him sit and rot. But then you're without one of your best players in a Cup window year. And his absence is a dark cloud hanging over the team all year. If you bring him back late, you don't get full value out of Year 1 (if Nylander is any indication). And if he sits out the year, you probably can't ever bring him back. And his value will just continue to decline. Whenever you finally move him, you're getting 75 cents on the dollar.

So Marner is betting that Dubas won't have the stones to be "the guy who lost Mitch Marner." And eventually Dubas will figure out a way to pay Marner's ransom demands. And we are not going to like the contract when it finally gets done.

 

[PromisedLand]

You are not sure where it comes from?

When Marner was little people thought that McDavid was a better hockey player. This has continued his whole life - to this day. Disrespect.
Then the Leafs drafted Marner but didn't give him the full bonuses on that contract. Disrespect.
Then the Leafs sent him back to junior instead of playing him on the crap tank team, which likely would have damaged his development (not to mention that it would have led to signing his first post ELC contract a year earlier and for way, way less). Disrespect.
Then the Leafs sometimes played him on the fourth line. Disrespect.
And Matthews got more of the attention. Disrespect.
And when there was talk about a Leafs' captain, Marner's name often either didn't come up or came up after players like Matthews. Disrespect.

If Marner felt so disrespected he would have asked for a trade or signed an offersheet already; there wouldn't be reports that he wants to stay a Leaf

come on man....

 

[PromisedLand]

The more I think of this, the more I see the genius of Marner's position to force a crazy lucrative deal.

On the surface it seems like Marner has minimal leverage. But maybe he has the most important leverage of all--the Leafs can't replace him if they don't sign him. They simply cannot replace him as a player and as an asset.

What if Marner insists on Matthews' contact? Or 3 years x $11 million? Too rich? Ok, what do you do?

There is no offer sheet coming, so no 4 unprotected first rounders. With those crazy demands you probably can't trade him for fair value. What if the best trade you can pull off is a first and a handful of decent prospects?

So you let him sit and rot. But then you're without one of your best players in a Cup window year. And his absence is a dark cloud hanging over the team all year. If you bring him back late, you don't get full value out of Year 1 (if Nylander is any indication). And if he sits out the year, you probably can't ever bring him back. And his value will just continue to decline. Whenever you finally move him, you're getting 75 cents on the dollar.

So Marner is betting that Dubas won't have the stones to be "the guy who lost Mitch Marner." And eventually Dubas will figure out a way to pay Marner's ransom demands. And we are not going to like the contract when it finally gets done.

That is one crazy bet from marner camp. If Marner sits for the entire year then he foregoes millions that cannot be recovered ever. that is one high risk bet.

technically; if marner sits for teh season; leafs have that cap space available to make moves for this season and bolster the roster some other way.

for example: getting a pending UFA D-man for a prospect + 2nd rounder

yes they will give up some offense; but adding the defense they can still have the same goal differential as last season by giving up less goals and playing a bit more defensively

 

[kb]

The more I think of this, the more I see the genius of Marner's position to force a crazy lucrative deal.

On the surface it seems like Marner has minimal leverage. But maybe he has the most important leverage of all--the Leafs can't replace him if they don't sign him. They simply cannot replace him as a player and as an asset.

What if Marner insists on Matthews' contact? Or 3 years x $11 million? Too rich? Ok, what do you do?

There is no offer sheet coming, so no 4 unprotected first rounders. With those crazy demands you probably can't trade him for fair value. What if the best trade you can pull off is a first and a handful of decent prospects?

So you let him sit and rot. But then you're without one of your best players in a Cup window year. And his absence is a dark cloud hanging over the team all year. If you bring him back late, you don't get full value out of Year 1 (if Nylander is any indication). And if he sits out the year, you probably can't ever bring him back. And his value will just continue to decline. Whenever you finally move him, you're getting 75 cents on the dollar.

So Marner is betting that Dubas won't have the stones to be "the guy who lost Mitch Marner." And eventually Dubas will figure out a way to pay Marner's ransom demands. And we are not going to like the contract when it finally gets done.

You trade him. To the least desirable location.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

You are not sure where it comes from?

When Marner was little people thought that McDavid was a better hockey player. This has continued his whole life - to this day. Disrespect.
Then the Leafs drafted Marner but didn't give him the full bonuses on that contract. Disrespect.
Then the Leafs sent him back to junior instead of playing him on the crap tank team, which likely would have damaged his development (not to mention that it would have led to signing his first post ELC contract a year earlier and for way, way less). Disrespect.
Then the Leafs sometimes played him on the fourth line. Disrespect.
And Matthews got more of the attention. Disrespect.
And when there was talk about a Leafs' captain, Marner's name often either didn't come up or came up after players like Matthews. Disrespect.

People thought McDavid was a better hockey player then Marner....because he was, and literally still is a better hockey player. That isn't disrespect that is living in reality. The Leafs sending him back to junior will end up making him more money in his career....I could only wish to be disrespected in such a terrible way in my profession I could continue breaking these down but I feel like the point has already been made.

 

[biotk]

Obviously Im talking about their stars. Pasta,Bergeron, Marchand, Rask, Chara even the deal Krug took all were below market. Even if Mcavoy and carlo are holding out its not for 15 million

How much is a C worth who hasn't scored more than 22 goals in the past 6 years and topped 60 points (64) once in that time? Does 8.7x8 on a contract that takes him to the age of 36 sound like a below market deal?

How about a LW who has hit 30 goals and 60 points (61) once? Does 6.8x8 on a contract that takes him to the age of 37 sound like a below market deal?

That is what Bergeron and Marchand's signing cap hits would be today. They are considered great deals because they have played far beyond expectations. They were both risky deals at the time.

 

[biotk]

People thought McDavid was a better hockey player then Marner....because he was, and literally still is a better hockey player. That isn't disrespect that is living in reality. The Leafs sending him back to junior will end up making him more money in his career....I could only wish to be disrespected in such a terrible way in my profession I could continue breaking these down but I feel like the point has already been made.

You don't need to convince me. You need to convince Paul.

 

[biotk]

If Marner felt so disrespected he would have asked for a trade or signed an offersheet already; there wouldn't be reports that he wants to stay a Leaf

come on man....

Again - Paul - not Mitch.

 

[PromisedLand]

Again - Paul - not Mitch.

who cares what paul thinks man; he is a father acting like a protective father. as long as mitch isn't having the same thoughts its all cool; more importantly if all these negative media reports aren't going to create a divide in the locker room then it doesn't matter

also if paul really felt that disrespected; he would have asked for a trade for mitch long time ago

 

[biotk]

The more I think of this, the more I see the genius of Marner's position to force a crazy lucrative deal.

On the surface it seems like Marner has minimal leverage. But maybe he has the most important leverage of all--the Leafs can't replace him if they don't sign him. They simply cannot replace him as a player and as an asset.

The Leafs don't need to replace him. They can shift Bracco into the lineup and use the available cap space to improve other areas of the team.