Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion - Less than 2 weeks to camp

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PromisedLand

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I will continue to not believe marner would have ever signed before Matthews.

That would just provide another slight for his entourage to take exception.

Marner on if contract was offered by Dubas (June 2018)
Q&A with Maple Leafs’ Mitch Marner | The Star
Nothing has been said yet, but nothing you can do. If nothing happens, you still have a year to play under your rookie contract. Just go out there and try to prove you can make the team better.

Dubas slept on it. He even screwed up the Nylander negotiations by "taking it slow"
 

ULF_55

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well "technically" players under contract currently can also be traded unless they have NTCs.

I would trade Nylander long before I even think about trading Marner.

Except, marner is not signed and may refuse to sign unless they offer him the same or more than Matthews.

If the franchise doesn't see that as an acceptable deal you don't deal players under contract to sign someone to a contract you can't live with.
 

PromisedLand

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I did pick a side. The side that people on hf are dumb and reactionary.

Drai was signed for 8.5M. The consensus on here was that the contract was completely terrible. They were wrong.
Drai scores 50 goals and 100 points. The consensus on here now has flipped to the contract is amazing. They still are wrong.

Drai's contract was not bad when it was signed. It wasn't great either. Edmonton was worried about an OS - which was legitimate. However, Drai's contract is not amazing now either. Yes, he put up a lot of points and scored a lot of goals, but he is not great without McDavid - which especially sucks on a team that really needs a strong second line.

Nylander's contract is not great. It is not terrible either. Dubas was in the unenviable position of not being able to get a good trade return, and risking Nylander sit out the season. He overpaid him by a bit.

Matthews' contract is not great. It is not terrible either. Dubas was worried about an OS.

Marner is not worth what he is demanding.

Your claim that Marner is not worth 9AAV for 8 years (rumoured contract last season) is based on your belief. I think Marner is clearly worth 9AAV for 8 years and he would have signed that deal had it not been for Dubas' lack of foresight
 

Menzinger

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If you think that Nylander is worth 2 first round picks and Kadri then I would say you need to re-evaluate your analysis of Nylander and his impact on the team's on-ice results

I was referring to a value comparison on an individual trade basis rather than combining them.
 

PromisedLand

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Except, marner is not signed and may refuse to sign unless they offer him the same or more than Matthews.

If the franchise doesn't see that as an acceptable deal you don't deal players under contract to sign someone to a contract you can't live with.

I disagree with your assessment.

Dubas lacked the foresight to see the kind of player Marner would be. He misjudged Marner as a player. Marner's importance to the team is much higher than other players on the roster except Matthews, Tavares, Rielly, Freddie
 

Menzinger

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Your claim that Marner is not worth 9AAV for 8 years (rumoured contract last season) is based on your belief. I think Marner is clearly worth 9AAV for 8 years and he would have signed that deal had it not been for Dubas' lack of foresight

He's worth over 9 mil now on a proven 90 point season. The suggestion he was worth that after 69 points is what's nonsense here.

And regardless you have this habit of treating these exceedingly suspect media rumors as fact (ie even expanding on them suggesting the Leafs could have had Marner for as low as 8 mil a few posts ago). When they imo deserve to be viewed with a huge degree of skepticism
 

ULF_55

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Marner on if contract was offered by Dubas (June 2018)
Q&A with Maple Leafs’ Mitch Marner | The Star
Nothing has been said yet, but nothing you can do. If nothing happens, you still have a year to play under your rookie contract. Just go out there and try to prove you can make the team better.

Dubas slept on it. He even screwed up the Nylander negotiations by "taking it slow"

I don't see anything in there about marner signing or making an offer.

Nothing has been said yet, but nothing you can do. If nothing happens, you still have a year to play under your rookie contract. Just go out there and try to prove you can make the team better.

Maybe the wrong link?
 

PromisedLand

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He's worth over 9 mil now on a proven 90 point season. The suggestion he was worth that after 69 points is what's nonsense here.

And regardless you have this habit of treating these exceedingly suspect media rumors as fact (ie even expanding on them suggesting the Leafs could have had Marner for as low as 8 mil a few posts ago). When they imo deserve to be viewed with a huge degree of skepticism

Nylander scored 27 points last season; is he worth 7AAV?

Is this how you analyze the players?
 

ULF_55

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I disagree with your assessment.

Dubas lacked the foresight to see the kind of player Marner would be. He misjudged Marner as a player. Marner's importance to the team is much higher than other players on the roster except Matthews, Tavares, Rielly, Freddie

You think the franchise should offer a contract they don't believe fits in the structure of the team?

So you're suggesting the players should decide who gets what?

In jest: Perhaps, that would be interesting, get all the players together give them $81mm and say make it work?
 

biotk

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Your claim that Marner is not worth 9AAV for 8 years (rumoured contract last season) is based on your belief. I think Marner is clearly worth 9AAV for 8 years and he would have signed that deal had it not been for Dubas' lack of foresight

My claim - which could not have been made more clear - was that Marner was not worth 9AAV for 8 years last summer. This summer he is worth a little more - but still not worth close to what he is demanding - and signing a contract based solely on his performance playing on Tavares' wing would be as stupid as it was for every other team that has overpaid Tavares' wingers in the past.
 
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PromisedLand

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You think the franchise should offer a contract they don't believe fits in the structure of the team?

So you're suggesting the players should decide who gets what?

In jest: Perhaps, that would be interesting, get all the players together give them $81mm and say make it work?

If you are suggesting that Nylander for 27 points is worth 7AAV and Mattews is worth 11.6 AAV only for a 5 year term because that fits in the "structure of the team" but Marner needs to take a pay cut being the highest scorer on the team for the past 2 years;

carrying the team when Matthews was injured

Plays PK and against oppositions' toplines

I am not sure if you are cheering for the "team" or for individual player(s).
 

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Wafflewhipper

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The only gamble Dubas has made (which might workout) is that he has Muzzin and Barrie pending UFAs who might play their hardest for their next contracts which might lead to success for the Leafs this season. I agree with that.

But as a GM his job is not only this season but future as well. I want to see the results and not some expectations based or corsi BS.

I want to see on ice results.

Leafs are probably going to be the only team who have locked in 4 players for almost 50% of the cap; next season when cap increases there are other RFAs like Dermott that need to be paid as well.

It is not just about the so called "super stars" but also about depth and role players on the team

I wouldn’t say I’m glad I’m not in his position (cause that would be fun) i would say that I’m definitely pretty sure I couldn’t have done any better than he has done. I like the flexibility or maybe a better word is the opportunity grow from more ELC’s entering the process.

Muzzy and Dermott should be very easy decisions next year and the space will be available. Lilly development and Sandin development with the Marlies this year and new blood in defense that is well rounded should work great. Thats all i can ask for really is that to be available. It is sooo! Thats the simple way for me to muddle along anyways and remain confident things are in good hands.

Give Marner his 3 year bridge deal and get on with camp is my kind simple take on all this. Trading him talk is bases on what? Not based on a winning formula thats for sure. You won’t win that trade likely.

This year we are good again. Contenders hell yeah.
 

PromisedLand

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My claim - which could not have been made more clear - was that Marner was not worth 9AAV for 8 years last summer. This summer he is worth a little more - but still not worth close to what he is demanding - and signing a contract based solely on his performance playing on Tavares' wing would be as stupid as it was for every other team that has overpaid Tavares' wingers in the past.

And hence my hockey foresight argument. If thinking that Marner's production would not increase with Tavares in the line up; and that Dubas would be able to sign Marner similar cap hit to Nylanders or some lower cap hit when:

Marner
- plays all situations
- led the team in points 2 years in a row
- PKs
- plays against oppositions' top lines


That kind of thinking from dubas is the reason leafs are in the mess they are right now
 
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PromisedLand

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Oh, speculation from Kypreos.

Maybe they should have ask Bobo, he was so close on Kadri.:sarcasm:

I need to hear a verified comment / written statement from the marner group before I accept it as fact. And it has to be dated prior to the start of the season.

Technically, if thats the route you want to debate then Marner asking for Matthews money is also a speculation did you hear Dubas or Marner camp come out and say Marner wants 11.6 AAV for 5 year term quoted directly or is it all from hearsay?
 

ULF_55

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If you are suggesting that Nylander for 27 points is worth 7AAV and Mattews is worth 11.6 AAV only for a 5 year term because that fits in the "structure of the team" but Marner needs to take a pay cut being the highest scorer on the team for the past 2 years;

carrying the team when Matthews was injured

Plays PK and against oppositions' toplines

I am not sure if you are cheering for the "team" or for individual player(s).

Nylander's contract was not based on a .5 PPG season. It was based on a .73 PPG career at the age of 21.
 

ULF_55

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And hence my hockey foresight argument. If thinking that Marner's production would not increase with Tavares in the line up; and that Dubas would be able to sign Marner similar cap hit to Nylanders or some lower cap hit when:

Marner
- plays all situations
- led the team in points 2 years in a row
- PKs
- plays against oppositions' top lines


That kind of thinking from dubas is the reason leafs are in the mess they are right now

Last year, prior to the season:

Career:
Matthews .92 PPG
marner .82 PPG

While marner did lead the team in scoring Matthews missed games.
 

PromisedLand

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Nylander's contract was not based on a .5 PPG season. It was based on a .73 PPG career at the age of 21.

and what should a marner contract be that is 0.93 ppg compared to matthews' 0.97 ppg?

or for that matter what should matthews' contract be on a 0.97 ppg compared to McDavid 1.3 ppg

or JT at 0.94 ppg (significantly bigger sample)
 

PromisedLand

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Last year, prior to the season:

Career:
Matthews .92 PPG
marner .82 PPG

While marner did lead the team in scoring Matthews missed games.

So is health or being healthy part of the discussion while valuing contract or not?

Matthews almost always has the benefit of playing with Marner on the roster; opposition faces two lines with equal threat

while matthews gets injuired Marner is forced to put the team on his back and carry them. How is that being valued?

P.S. in the playoffs

Marner's ppg > Matthews' ppg
 

ULF_55

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Technically, if thats the route you want to debate then Marner asking for Matthews money is also a speculation did you hear Dubas or Marner camp come out and say Marner wants 11.6 AAV for 5 year term quoted directly or is it all from hearsay?

I'm thinking no one knows what he'll sign for.

I believe we all speculate Dubas has been working much harder on this and started earlier on this than he did with Nylander last year. And Nylander's contract came in at a reasonable rate for a 21 year old .73 PPG player. Last year marner was a 20 year old .82 PPG player, who played sheltered minutes with Bozak and van Riemsdyk one of those years. Unless of course that line is no longer considered one of the most sheltered lines in the game? Did you think it was a sheltered line when marner was on it?

This year, after playing with a franchise center marner is worth more. I suspect playing with Tavares had a major impact on his production, but that is reasonable speculation and but cannot be proven. Tavares has had that affect on players in the past.

Toronto Maple Leafs: Mitch Marner Met With Other Teams
 
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ULF_55

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So is health or being healthy part of the discussion while valuing contract or not?

Matthews almost always has the benefit of playing with Marner on the roster; opposition faces two lines with equal threat

while matthews gets injuired Marner is forced to put the team on his back and carry them. How is that being valued?

P.S. in the playoffs

Marner's ppg > Matthews' ppg

I'm sure we can find example of health being referenced and being ignored.

Off the top of my head: Karlsson's contract this year.
 
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biotk

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And hence my hockey foresight argument. If thinking that Marner's production would not increase with Tavares in the line up

This is not lack of foresight. This is called having a brain. The claim that "Of course Marner's production was going to go up playing with Tavares, so therefore he should be paid more." Is a completely stupid argument. If it is known - and it seems to be known by everyone - that playing with Tavares leads to higher production then any GM with any brains would say: "Sorry - you are not a 94 point player - you are a player who has inflated production because you played with Tavares."

Your argument doesn't help your cause - it weakens it.

Marner
- plays all situations
- led the team in points 2 years in a row
- PKs
- plays against oppositions' top lines

This is all pretty much meaningless and mainly coaching decisions. Prior to the season Babcock had two top lines. Matthews' has always been the much better player at 5v5 than either Tavares or Marner. Decisions were made accordingly.

Babcock when faced with the question of how to get both of those lines out on the ice soon after a PK decided that he would play Tavares and Marner at the end of PKs. This would get them out on the ice for the end of the PK and generally the first bit of ES time after a PK. Then the Matthews line would go out. This made all the more sense because the Leafs' main penalty killing forward - Hyman - was on that line. This was a decision based on Marner being on a line with Tavares and Hyman. Things didn't work with Tavares on the PK, so things were juggled a bit, but the reasoning for why Marner was ever even tried out on the PK was because he was playing with Tavares. Matthews hasn't been tried - and I would prefer that he never does start to PK because he already blocks far too many shots, and PKing is something that almost anyone can do.

Playing against opposition's top lines is pretty much complete nonsense too. Matthews' did it the previous two seasons, and I have already shown several times that the difference between quality of competition between Matthews' and Marner last season was almost nonexistent. Where there was a huge difference - quality of teammates - again Tavares.

As for playing all situations - this is again mostly a situation where Babcock made a decision based on Matthews' being the better 5v5 player over the previous two seasons, and Babcock wanting to have his two big lines out consecutively during goalie pull situations for instance. In the dying minutes of close games Babcock would time it have the Matthews line go out and then the Tavares line to finish off the game. If the Leafs' had a small lead this would generally result in Matthews' line going out as the last 5v5 shift and then the Tavares line going out around the time that the opposing team pulled their goalie. This was a massive scoring advantage for Marner (who had been used in this role much less than Matthews in the previous two seasons) and was because he played with Tavares.

Tavares deserves to be paid well.

That kind of thinking from dubas is the reason leafs are in the mess they are right now

The Leafs' are not a mess right now. They are a well put together team that has one player unsigned because the player is demanding more than the Leafs' (and apparently every other team) think he is worth. It happens. The only thing the GM can do is hold his position or do something like trade the player.
 
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