Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion - Less than 2 weeks to camp

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

many reports have said that AAV is not an issue it is term; Dubas' lack of foresight is at it again. May be Dubas mouth should stop writing cheques his behind cannot cash.

Lot of lip service from Dubas all talk no substance. I'd happily eat crow if am proven wrong so far Dubas has failed as a GM

what do you believe the function of a GM is, and how has Dubas failed?

 

[PromisedLand]

There are quite a few deals that could help both teams.

I doubt it comes to that, but some package around Arvidsson and Ellis wouldn't be bad. More pieces would have to be involved.

I think Cox, I know, I know, has it right when he says the objective is to win the Cup, not win the Cup with marner.

Technically this can be extended to Matthews, Tavares and Nylander too. No player is bigger than the team. Last season a trade for Nylander to help the defense would have helped immensely against the bruins; also we might still have had the first round draft pick that we traded to acquire muzzin and some salary cap left over to improve team composition this offseason.

As we stand now both Muzzin and Barrie are pending UFAs; we have traded an asset that was signed to a very reasonable cap hit for few more years and in his prime (Kadri);

after next season our D-core looks like

Rielly-XXX
Dermot-XXX
XXX-XXX

That is clearly pathetic management from Dubas

 

[Legion34]

Technically this can be extended to Matthews, Tavares and Nylander too. No player is bigger than the team. Last season a trade for Nylander to help the defense would have helped immensely against the bruins; also we might still have had the first round draft pick that we traded to acquire muzzin and some salary cap left over to improve team composition this offseason.

As we stand now both Muzzin and Barrie are pending UFAs; we have traded an asset that was signed to a very reasonable cap hit for few more years and in his prime (Kadri);

after next season our D-core looks like

Rielly-XXX
Dermot-XXX
XXX-XXX

That is clearly pathetic management from Dubas

And you think that Toronto is going to play next season with 2 defenders?

We will have about 22-25 million to spend on marner and 2 D. There are about 30 including our 2 coming up this year. Some will shake loose. Or ours will be forced to re sign. Other teams have to abide by the cap too

 

[PromisedLand]

what do you believe the function of a GM is, and how has Dubas failed?

Dubas' foresight is basically non-existent; he talks too much and on-ice results have been sub-par. He could not build a team to take advantage of his elite players' ELCs (Hawks, Pens made deep runs with their star player(s) on ELCs);

He has left Toronto's defensive future hanging; has thrown 2 first rounders in trades and high AAV for post ELCs with no term; basically focused almost 50% of the cap (when marner gets signed) on just 4 players.

Dubas' ability to judge one of the most important position on the team (back up goalie) was clearly suspect last season and it had an impact on the team.

Leafs record post december last season was around .500; he took away penalty killers (par lindholm); and Leafs got their asses handed to them in the playoffs by the bruins by having abysmal PK

There are many more stupid moves by Dubas like not signing both Matthews and Marner last season when he knew JT had signed on the dotted line.

Absolutely pathetic management from Dubas and serious lack of foresight

 

[The Man with a Plan]

many reports have said that AAV is not an issue it is term; Dubas' lack of foresight is at it again. May be Dubas mouth should stop writing cheques his behind cannot cash.

Lot of lip service from Dubas all talk no substance. I'd happily eat crow if am proven wrong so far Dubas has failed as a GM

Funny how you talk about Dubas running his mouth but at least he knows all the facts.
You go on and on Endlessly mind you about things you have no clue about and call them facts
Not to mention the constant need to belittle and call him names which eliminates any validity you may possibly have had...

if he's such a moron as you like to call him how has he had the career he's had at his age and is now running one of the biggest sports teams on the planet?

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Dubas' foresight is basically non-existent; he talks too much and on-ice results have been sub-par. He could not build a team to take advantage of his elite players' ELCs (Hawks, Pens made deep runs with their star player(s) on ELCs);

He has left Toronto's defensive future hanging; has thrown 2 first rounders in trades and high AAV for post ELCs with no term; basically focused almost 50% of the cap (when marner gets signed) on just 4 players.

Dubas' ability to judge one of the most important position on the team (back up goalie) was clearly suspect last season and it had an impact on the team.

Leafs record post december last season was around .500; he took away penalty killers (par lindholm); and Leafs got their asses handed to them in the playoffs by the bruins by having abysmal PK

There are many more stupid moves by Dubas like not signing both Matthews and Marner last season when he knew JT had signed on the dotted line.

Absolutely pathetic management from Dubas and serious lack of foresight

so a poor backup goalie and trading Par Lindholm, and also no foresight. Understood

 

[PromisedLand]

Funny how you talk about Dubas running his mouth but at least he knows all the facts.
You go on and on Endlessly mind you about things you have no clue about and call them facts
Not to mention the constant need to belittle and call him names which eliminates any validity you may possibly have had...

if he's such a moron as you like to call him how has he had the career he's had at his age and is now running one of the biggest sports teams on the planet?

and Donald Trump is the president whats your point?

 

[PromisedLand]

so a poor backup goalie and trading Par Lindholm, and also no foresight. Understood

Clearly you missed that there are many things; I have posted many times you are free to go through my post history. I am not going to repeat it again and again and again every single detail for Dubas fanboys to act all high and mighty

Might want to start with post number 3 in this thread
Salary Cap: - Marner Contract Discussion - Less than 2 weeks to camp

Of course you are going to ignore but one can't help ignorance if it is fed by preconceived notions or by a self defined agenda

 

[13pacheco31]

Clearly you missed that there are many things; I have posted many times you are free to go through my post history. I am not going to repeat it again and again and again every single detail for Dubas fanboys to act all high and mighty

Might want to start with post number 3 in this thread
Salary Cap: - Marner Contract Discussion - Less than 2 weeks to camp

Of course you are going to ignore but one can't help ignorance if it is fed by preconceived notions or by a self defined agenda

Funny how hindsights 20/20, isn't it?

 

[The Man with a Plan]

Dubas' foresight is basically non-existent; he talks too much and on-ice results have been sub-par. He could not build a team to take advantage of his elite players' ELCs (Hawks, Pens made deep runs with their star player(s) on ELCs);

He has left Toronto's defensive future hanging; has thrown 2 first rounders in trades and high AAV for post ELCs with no term; basically focused almost 50% of the cap (when marner gets signed) on just 4 players.

Dubas' ability to judge one of the most important position on the team (back up goalie) was clearly suspect last season and it had an impact on the team.

Leafs record post december last season was around .500; he took away penalty killers (par lindholm); and Leafs got their asses handed to them in the playoffs by the bruins by having abysmal PK

There are many more stupid moves by Dubas like not signing both Matthews and Marner last season when he knew JT had signed on the dotted line.

Absolutely pathetic management from Dubas and serious lack of foresight

Absolutely ignoring everything possible that he has done well or exceeded expectations at.

Best C depth in decades -added the biggest UFA in ages and now has 2 elite 1C's....
Great depth on the wings - Marner Willie Kappy and Mango
Made serious progress on the defensive core with Muzzin and Barrie...and has kept the pipeline stocked well Sandman etc

oh and that's all in one season

but he really doesn't know what he's doing.

One way or another Dubas and the Leafs win. Either Mitch grows up and makes a deal that doesn't handcuff the team or he's traded for someone who doesnt. Crest on the front not the name on the back after all.

 

[Mess]

What a terrible assessment of a post. @Mess put in logically the thought process and this is what you come up with? On ice results matter. Throwing away 1st round draft picks and money; and making claims of "we can and we will" or "i will not trade nylander" when the on ice results are mediocre looks very STUPID from the GM

As fans we view this from a very different perspective than ownership would. Get Marner signed because they like the player and its not their money so $10.5 mil X 5 years is no big deal, and 94 regular season points is well worth that money. Fully understandable position to take as a fan, as that is all we have invested outside of time to cheer our team and favourite players on.

However from Ownership POV these signings are viewed very differently.. They use to pay Matthews, Marner and Willy less than $3 mil combined and didn't have Tavares on the books and their ROI was 1st round loss return on that investment.

Now with Marner's new contract and adding JT they will in on the hook for nearly $40 mil dollars for just 4 players with a Cup window based on contract lengths of 5 years.

When AM+MM+WN are making <$3 mil combined a 1st round playoff loss like they had in previous years as they developed was still acceptable.. They flipped the bill for JT @ $11 mil and gave Nylander $7 mil last year and the team results didn't change same loss in round #1.. Now they're given Matthews $11.6 mil and soon Marner +$10 mil in addition to those other 2 contracts so a 1st round loss this year would be a disaster outcome for MLSE.

When you're now paying those players among the highest in the NHL your expectations are much higher and your return on invest expectations are altered also. When paying Marner $875k and now willing to pay him $10 mil its not the player its the end result and more playoff success that you're investing in that player by giving him a $9 mil dollar raise. These players signings are viewed through completely different lenses depending on who's POV you take.

Marner says "I'm the teams leading scorer and you gave my teammates each their $11 mil so where is my $11 mil also?". So from Marner's perspective and POV that is also a reasonable argument to make.

Dubas also will be judged eventually on the team results not the individual contracts and so its too early to judge him also, because the results are not in yet.. We cross our fingers and align our fan position with his and hope he is signing the right players and it results in the Stanley Cup. Dubas might still get the last laugh and look like a genius if Leafs hoist the Stanley Cup and prove all his naysayers wrong. If the Leafs do win it all it won't matter if Marner is making $8.5 mil or $11 mil a season at that point...

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Marner is a must sign!

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Clearly you missed that there are many things; I have posted many times you are free to go through my post history. I am not going to repeat it again and again and again every single detail for Dubas fanboys to act all high and mighty

Might want to start with post number 3 in this thread
Salary Cap: - Marner Contract Discussion - Less than 2 weeks to camp

Of course you are going to ignore but one can't help ignorance if it is fed by preconceived notions or by a self defined agenda

because it's not up to a GM to predict everything perfectly and never make a mistake. If that was the expectation, then every GM is garbage and a failure. Nobody reasonable actually cares if the backup goalie isn't good or a player like Lindholm gets traded, let alone uses those as valid reasons to believe a GM is terrible. A GM's role is to control all player transactions and make the best team possible. There will be some good and some bad, and you need to look at it as a whole and evaluate the team as a whole. Only pointing to the bad and screaming about foresight isn't a worthwhile analysis

 

[PromisedLand]

Funny how hindsights 20/20, isn't it?

Dude I've been saying that since last summer

 

[PromisedLand]

Absolutely ignoring everything possible that he has done well or exceeded expectations at.

Best C depth in decades -added the biggest UFA in ages and now has 2 elite 1C's....
Great depth on the wings - Marner Willie Kappy and Mango
Made serious progress on the defensive core with Muzzin and Barrie...and has kept the pipeline stocked well Sandman etc

oh and that's all in one season

but he really doesn't know what he's doing.

One way or another Dubas and the Leafs win. Either Mitch grows up and makes a deal that doesn't handcuff the team or he's traded for someone who doesnt. Crest on the front not the name on the back after all.

Nylander's 27 points is a success? that is one season out of 6 with both matthews and marner on ELC in the TRASH CAN

Barrie and Muzzin are pending UFAs that is not good long term planning

Marner is more important to this team than you give him credit. Yes the crest matters more than the name on the back; may be dubas should have thought about it before handing matthews 11.6 AAV only for a 5 year term

 

[ER89]

Technically this can be extended to Matthews, Tavares and Nylander too. No player is bigger than the team. Last season a trade for Nylander to help the defense would have helped immensely against the bruins; also we might still have had the first round draft pick that we traded to acquire muzzin and some salary cap left over to improve team composition this offseason.

As we stand now both Muzzin and Barrie are pending UFAs; we have traded an asset that was signed to a very reasonable cap hit for few more years and in his prime (Kadri);

after next season our D-core looks like

Rielly-XXX
Dermot-XXX
XXX-XXX

That is clearly pathetic management from Dubas

Dumb take is dumb.

 

[PromisedLand]

because it's not up to a GM to predict everything perfectly and never make a mistake. If that was the expectation, then every GM is garbage and a failure. Nobody reasonable actually cares if the backup goalie isn't good or a player like Lindholm gets traded, let alone uses those as valid reasons a GM is terrible. A GM's role is to control all player transactions and make the best team possible. There will be some good and some bad, and you need to look at it as a whole and evaluate the team as a whole. Only pointing to the bad and screaming about foresight isn't a worthwhile analysis

As an executive one should have a vision and good foresight and ability to predict the obvious i.e. marner and matthews produciton exploding with the inclusion of Tavares in the roster.

Have you ever worked in a professional capacity on a long term project? Project manager is suppose to chart out plans and budget it for the optimal solution.

Dubas has clearly failed in this regard. He has looked amateurish and that has had a direct impact on the Leafs' team composition which will translate to on ice competitiveness of the team

not to mention nylander's disastrous season last year that is one year in the garbage bin of a 6 year contract

 

[PromisedLand]

Dumb take is dumb.

lol all I am seeing is "I am a dubas faboy; and I have a dubas fetish and any critic of dubas is dumb"

 

[Peasy]

Nylander's 27 points is a success? that is one season out of 6 with both matthews and marner on ELC in the TRASH CAN

Barrie and Muzzin are pending UFAs that is not good long term planning

Marner is more important to this team than you give him credit. Yes the crest matters more than the name on the back; may be dubas should have thought about it before handing matthews 11.6 AAV only for a 5 year term

You know Dubas was only the GM starting last year right?

So he had 1 year of Matthews and Marner on their ELC and thats it. You make it sound like he was in control their entire ELCs...

If you're upset with someone it should be Lou. Also, he did try his best to win with Marner and Matthews on their ELCs last season by adding Muzzin. Was it his fault that Kadri got suspended in game 1? Was it his fault both Gardiner and Dermott were injured which hurt their play in the playoffs? Did he have control over Babcock playing Marleau when were down in game 7?

 

[13pacheco31]

Dude I've been saying that since last summer

Saying what specifically last summer? And as far as not signing marner last summer, if they couldn't agree on a contract what do you expect him to do? Put a gun to his head?

 

[PromisedLand]

As fans we view this from a very different perspective than ownership would. Get Marner signed because they like the player and its not their money so $10.5 mil X 5 years is no big deal, and 94 regular season points is well worth that money. Fully understandable position to take as a fan, as that is all we have invested outside of time to cheer our team and favourite players on.

However from Ownership POV these signings are viewed very differently.. They use to pay Matthews, Marner and Willy less than $3 mil combined and didn't have Tavares on the books and their ROI was 1st round loss return on that investment.

Now with Marner's new contract and adding JT they will in on the hook for nearly $40 mil dollars for just 4 players with a Cup window based on contract lengths of 5 years.

When AM+MM+WN are making <$3 mil combined a 1st round playoff loss like they had in previous years as they developed was still acceptable.. They flipped the bill for JT @ $11 mil and gave Nylander $7 mil last year and the team results didn't change same loss in round #1.. Now they're given Matthews $11.6 mil and soon Marner +$10 mil in addition to those other 2 contracts so a 1st round loss this year would be a disaster outcome for MLSE.

When you're now paying those players among the highest in the NHL your expectations are much higher and your return on invest expectations are altered also. When paying Marner $875k and now willing to pay him $10 mil its not the player its the end result and more playoff success that you're investing in that player by giving him a $9 mil dollar raise. These players signings are viewed through completely different lenses depending on who's POV you take.

Marner says "I'm the teams leading scorer and you gave my teammates each their $11 mil so where is my $11 mil also?". So from Marner's perspective and POV that his also a reasonable argument to make.

Dubas also will be judged eventually on the team results not the individual contracts and so its too early to judge him also, because the results are not in yet.. We cross our fingers and align our fan position with his and hope he is signing the right players and it results in the Stanley Cup. Dubas might still get the last laugh and look like a genius if Leafs hoist the Stanley Cup and prove all his naysayers wrong. If the Leafs do win it all it won't matter if Marner is making $8.5 mil or $11 mil a season at that point...

Hey I would gladly eat crow and look like a fool and dubas can look einstein level genius if it means Leafs win the cup; my argument is that the moves by dubas have reduced the probability of leafs hoisting a cup in a salary cap world where the competition hasn't paid their ELCs ridiculous AAVs on a 5 or 6 year term

Hell even Tavares signed for a freakin' 7 year term.

McDavid 8 year term
Draisaitl contract universally comdemned is also at least 8 year term

It baffles me how weak his negotiating tactics were that he could not get a 6th year out of Matthews contract so that Matthews is up for renewal the same time JT is off the cap. Now marner is also looking for a 5 year term... I dont even....

 

[PromisedLand]

You know Dubas was only the GM starting last year right?

So he had 1 year of Matthews and Marner on their ELC and thats it. You make it sound like he was in control their entire ELCs...

If you're upset with someone it should be Lou. Also, he did try his best to win with Marner and Matthews on their ELCs last season by adding Muzzin. Was it his fault that Kadri got suspended in game 1? Was it his fault both Gardiner and Dermott were injured which hurt their play in the playoffs? Did he have control over Babcock playing Marleau when were down in game 7?

Dubas wasn't hired by the MLSE organization just last year. He has been with this organization in the AGM capacity for a while now. Planning for future with the assets on your team when you have seen them play and develop everyday for the last 3 years isn't rocket science.

You can fault Lou for Zaitsev and Marleau contracts but the excuse that Dubas has been a GM only for a year is weak IMO; he has been with the organization for more than 4 years (since scortched earth); planning and projecting; having a foresight with the players you have watched your entire tenure with the organization shouldn't be this hard - especially given the "recent" comparables around the league.

 

[biotk]

Dubas' foresight is basically non-existent; he talks too much and on-ice results have been sub-par. He could not build a team to take advantage of his elite players' ELCs (Hawks, Pens made deep runs with their star player(s) on ELCs);

He has left Toronto's defensive future hanging; has thrown 2 first rounders in trades and high AAV for post ELCs with no term; basically focused almost 50% of the cap (when marner gets signed) on just 4 players.

Dubas' ability to judge one of the most important position on the team (back up goalie) was clearly suspect last season and it had an impact on the team.

Leafs record post december last season was around .500; he took away penalty killers (par lindholm); and Leafs got their asses handed to them in the playoffs by the bruins by having abysmal PK

There are many more stupid moves by Dubas like not signing both Matthews and Marner last season when he knew JT had signed on the dotted line.

Absolutely pathetic management from Dubas and serious lack of foresight

It's really too bad that Dubas didn't avoid the Muzzin trade so the Leafs' could have gone into the playoffs with an injured Gardner and Zaitsev as the second pairing.

It is also too bad that Dubas traded Zaitsev - it would have been really helpful keeping him so that the Leafs' have another signed D at the end of this coming season - because that is soooper important.

And, of course, Lindholm - with his amazing skill of having the worst GA/60 among regular Leafs' forwards on the PK - was definitely the missing key in the playoffs.

Finally - letting Nylander sit the season, and waiting for Matthews to sign an offer sheet was the best way forward for this team.

It is too bad the Leafs' didn't have PL as GM.

 

[PromisedLand]

It's really too bad that Dubas didn't avoid the Muzzin trade so the Leafs' could have gone into the playoffs with an injured Gardner and Zaitsev as the second pairing.

It is also too bad that Dubas traded Zaitsev - it would have been really helpful keeping him so that the Leafs' have another signed D at the end of this coming season - because that is soooper important.

And, of course, Lindholm - with his amazing skill of having the worst GA/60 among regular Leafs' forwards on the PK - was definitely the missing key in the playoffs.

Finally - letting Nylander sit the season, and waiting for Matthews to sign an offer sheet was the best way forward for this team.

It is too bad the Leafs' didn't have PL as GM.

Salary Cap: - Marner Contract Discussion - Less than 2 weeks to camp

Might want to give the post above a read and if you choose to ignore the info there then so be it

 

[Peasy]

Dubas wasn't hired by the MLSE organization just last year. He has been with this organization in the AGM capacity for a while now. Planning for future with the assets on your team when you have seen them play and develop everyday for the last 3 years isn't rocket science.

You can fault Lou for Zaitsev and Marleau contracts but the excuse that Dubas has been a GM only for a year is weak IMO; he has been with the organization for more than 4 years (since scortched earth); planning and projecting; having a foresight with the players you have watched your entire tenure with the organization shouldn't be this hard - especially given the "recent" comparables around the league.

So you're literally blaming Dubas for things he did not have control over

Being an assistant GM (with a major focus on the Marlies) and the GM of the Leafs are two completely different jobs. You're ignorant if you think otherwise.