Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion - Less than 2 weeks to camp

[PromisedLand]

So you're literally blaming Dubas for things he did not have control over

if that is what you get from my posts then I don't even know where to start with you.....

 

[biotk]

Draisaitl contract universally comdemned is also at least 8 year term

It was universally condemned on here when signed. Now, just two years later it is considered a great contract. The take away from that might be that it is the people on here who are the dumb ones.

 

[notdoneyet]

The salary you'd have to shed would be something like Johnsson, Kapanen, or Hyman.

They aren't key components, but you are notably weakening the team by removing one of them.

Trevor Moore can replace any one of the above. He has shown he is better than a third or fourth liner.
You trade one f the above, insert Moore and let someone take Moores spot down the lineup.

 

[ULF_55]

While I agree that the objective is to win the cup, not win the cup with Marner. I also think that Marner's contract demands significantly decrease his trade value. If I was Nashville I wouldn't trade Arvidsson and Ellis for him because of his contract demands. If I was Calgary I wouldn't trade Tkachuk for him.

I think the demands from Nashville would not say he has to be paid as much as a then irrelevant Matthews.

He could be highest paid player in Nashville and that wouldn't be based on Matthews.

 

[PromisedLand]

It was universally condemned on here when signed. Now, just two years later it is considered a great contract. The take away from that might be that it is the people on here who are the dumb ones.

So when people post that dubas should have signed marner to a 8 year deal at around 8 to 9 AAV last summer when marner camp had offered 72 million for 8 years and then posters say that would have been really stupid of dubas to do that....

now would that have been stupid or "smart"?

i.e. having a good hockey foresight is a good thing

 

[Suntouchable13]

Trevor Moore can replace any one of the above. He has shown he is better than a third or fourth liner.
You trade one f the above, insert Moore and let someone take Moores spot down the lineup.

No, you don't cater to his whims. Leafs cleared enough cap space.

 

[Peasy]

if that is what you get from my posts then I don't even know where to start with you.....

He didn't have control over what the Leafs roster looked like until last year...

Why is that so difficult for you to understand? The GM has the final say. You blame Dubas for wasting Marner and Matthews' ELCs yet he was only in complete control one of those years yet you say that was not really the case...

Why didn't the AGM in Minny stop those horrible Fenton trades? Oh wait, thats because Fenton had the final say because he was the GM, not AGM...

 

[biotk]

Salary Cap: - Marner Contract Discussion - Less than 2 weeks to camp

Might want to give the post above a read and if you choose to ignore the info there then so be it

There is nothing there.

 

[ULF_55]

Technically this can be extended to Matthews, Tavares and Nylander too. No player is bigger than the team. Last season a trade for Nylander to help the defense would have helped immensely against the bruins; also we might still have had the first round draft pick that we traded to acquire muzzin and some salary cap left over to improve team composition this offseason.

As we stand now both Muzzin and Barrie are pending UFAs; we have traded an asset that was signed to a very reasonable cap hit for few more years and in his prime (Kadri);

after next season our D-core looks like

Rielly-XXX
Dermot-XXX
XXX-XXX

That is clearly pathetic management from Dubas

Agree completely.

Except they are under contract to an amount that is agreeable to the team.

marner will probably be that as well, but if he is not you trade him.

It really is up to the player to decide if he can live under terms that the team is agreeable to. He can't trade himself, but he can make that the team's only option.

 

[Menzinger]

Unfortunately we all assumed that this would be the case. We thought Mathews would come in between Eichel and McDavid on an 8yr deal. Something happened to them since the first couple of years...I don't know what it was but something changed. I really hoped they would respect the fact that JT took less to come here and fall in line. Instead...they basically said "Thanks for the extra cap room sucker" and took that cap room for themselves.

How they can look at their teammates like Reilly, Tavares and Andersen with a straight face is beyond me. I don't care what people say...it cannot have a positive effect in the room...it just can't.

Players aren't obligated to balance the cap. That in turn doesn't mean they deserve to get given whatever they demand.

Imo that Andersen contract at the time was a considerable chunk of change for an unproven starting goalie
.now it worked out for the Leafs, but it's not as if he gave the team a sweetheart of a deal.

Edit; got rid of duplicate quote

 

[biotk]

So when people post that dubas should have signed marner to a 8 year deal at around 8 to 9 AAV last summer when marner camp had offered 72 million for 8 years and then posters say that would have been really stupid of dubas to do that....

now would that have been stupid or "smart"?

i.e. having a good hockey foresight is a good thing

Giving Marner a 72M contract last summer would have been dumb as hell. Overpaying Marner this summer because many fans have an over-inflated view of him after a year with Tavares is also dumb as hell.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

As an executive one should have a vision and good foresight and ability to predict the obvious i.e. marner and matthews produciton exploding with the inclusion of Tavares in the roster.

Have you ever worked in a professional capacity on a long term project? Project manager is suppose to chart out plans and budget it for the optimal solution.

Dubas has clearly failed in this regard. He has looked amateurish and that has had a direct impact on the Leafs' team composition which will translate to on ice competitiveness of the team

not to mention nylander's disastrous season last year that is one year in the garbage bin of a 6 year contract

Not signing Marner/Matthews over the summer not only isn't the catastrophic failure you're trying to portray it as, it's also only one function of being a general manager. It's not reasonable to base whether or not Dubas is a good GM solely based on that

 

[Menzinger]

I think he is a very good player, but he is no Ovi, or Crosby or McDavid, I don't do everything I can to re-sign him. If I can't fit him in with the cap I currently I have, I trade him. Leafs already cleared as much cap as they can.

Paying the guy say 9.5 mil over 6 years immediately puts him in elite territory among NHL wingers. Only a handful of wingers in the world.make that kind of money.

What's utterly perplexing to me is the suggestion by some.on here that such a contract is laughable and insulting.

Marner is an amazing young player, who Leafs fans are lucky to cheer for, but the world doesn't, nor shouldn't revolve around him

 

[PromisedLand]

He didn't have control over what the Leafs roster looked like until last year...

Why is that so difficult for you to understand? The GM has the final say. You blame Dubas for wasting Marner and Matthews' ELCs yet he was only in complete control one of those years yet you say that was not really the case...

Why didn't the AGM in Minny stop those horrible Fenton trades? Oh wait, thats because Fenton had the final say because he was the GM, not AGM...

you are missing the point. I am saying that Dubas has watched these players develop first hand in the league everyday; he wasn't coming in blind in a GM's position.

His negotiating chops are weak especially when it coems to core players and his hockey foresight is non-existent

 

[PromisedLand]

Agree completely.

Except they are under contract to an amount that is agreeable to the team.

marner will probably be that as well, but if he is not you trade him.

It really is up to the player to decide if he can live under terms that the team is agreeable to. He can't trade himself, but he can make that the team's only option.

well "technically" players under contract currently can also be traded unless they have NTCs.

I would trade Nylander long before I even think about trading Marner.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Technically this can be extended to Matthews, Tavares and Nylander too. No player is bigger than the team. Last season a trade for Nylander to help the defense would have helped immensely against the bruins; also we might still have had the first round draft pick that we traded to acquire muzzin and some salary cap left over to improve team composition this offseason.

As we stand now both Muzzin and Barrie are pending UFAs; we have traded an asset that was signed to a very reasonable cap hit for few more years and in his prime (Kadri);

after next season our D-core looks like

Rielly-XXX
Dermot-XXX
XXX-XXX

That is clearly pathetic management from Dubas

I get lots of your points.

Dubby has put together a deep deep roster with nice depth and some nice character players with a history of good work ethic to go along with being good team guys. Good role player depth in short.

You are arguing about next years roster before giving this years a look. 2016/17 2017/18 2018/19 are all playoffs years! Thats a great start for the expierence of all our ELC players to build off. Now you have to pay them. There is nothing wrong with that.

They should get the best money they can or their agent isn’t doing the job. I absolutely admire the cap flexability and the flexibility to move on to new decisions. Its a great position to be in if not a necessity in a cap system.

Draft,development,promote,asset management and cap efficiency is name of the game every year for every team all while trying to remain competitive in the process.

Every job on the planet has someone saying sh!t i wish i done that different but it still worked out good, but i will do it a bit different next time. No different for a GM of the leafs bro.

All in all. Not a bad piece of work but needs tweeks here and there. Great flexibility is paramount i believe. Competitive team coming again. New coach would be good but i will cut him some slack until i see some things.

You might be stubborn on this before you get to see the results

 

[PromisedLand]

Giving Marner a 72M contract last summer would have been dumb as hell. Overpaying Marner this summer because many fans have an over-inflated view of him after a year with Tavares is also dumb as hell.

dude pick a freakin side

you just freakin said above in a post that draisaitl contract was condemned but is now considered a great contract. Why the hell is this not true for marner as well?

I am so sick of people defending dubas to no end as if the guy walks on water

Salary Cap: - Marner Contract Discussion - Less than 2 weeks to camp

 

[Menzinger]

Technically this can be extended to Matthews, Tavares and Nylander too. No player is bigger than the team. Last season a trade for Nylander to help the defense would have helped immensely against the bruins; also we might still have had the first round draft pick that we traded to acquire muzzin and some salary cap left over to improve team composition this offseason.

As we stand now both Muzzin and Barrie are pending UFAs; we have traded an asset that was signed to a very reasonable cap hit for few more years and in his prime (Kadri);

after next season our D-core looks like

Rielly-XXX
Dermot-XXX
XXX-XXX

That is clearly pathetic management from Dubas

The assets traded in both the Muzzin and Barrie trade are nowhere near worth near a blue chip young asset like Nylander.

Being able to bring in two top pairing quality D men while keeping all of the young core assets in place is some of the most complex trading we've seen from a Leafs GM in the entire cap era.

You're 100% in the wrong here.

 

[biotk]

Last season a trade for Nylander to help the defense would have helped immensely against the bruins; also we might still have had the first round draft pick that we traded to acquire muzzin and some salary cap left over to improve team composition this offseason.

Dubas looked to trade Nylander in September - November. His contract demands and the difficulty of negotiating with agent sunk his trade value. After the signing his 6.96 cap hit being applied over just 2/3rds of the season meant that it would be very difficult to trade him in season. Who had the cap space to take that on? (Toronto - that is pretty much it) He simply would not have returned the D you think he would have.

The same thing is the case with Marner right now. The contract fiascos with those two are not because of Dubas, or because of the signing of Tavares. Things like the book "The Young Leafs" published after their rookie season warned that this was coming.

 

[PromisedLand]

Not signing Marner/Matthews over the summer not only isn't the catastrophic failure you're trying to portray it as, it's also only one function of being a general manager. It's not reasonable to base whether or not Dubas is a good GM solely based on that

that is your view of things as a dubas supporter that defends dubas to no end. I still remember your posts ridiculing people who were miffed with dubas for chosing sparks and then you changed your tune

Having a good foresight in cap world when it comes to core players who may demand bigger share of the pie is important you can deny it all you want but that doesn't change it from being the truth

 

[PromisedLand]

I get lots of your points.

Dubby has put together a deep deep roster with nice depth and some nice character players with a history of good work ethic to go along with being good team guys. Good role player depth in short.

You are arguing about next years roster before giving this years a look. 2016/17 2017/18 2018/19 are all playoffs years! Thats a great start for the expierence of all our ELC players to build off. Now you have to pay them. There is nothing wrong with that.

They should get the best money they can or their agent isn’t doing the job. I absolutely admire the cap flexability and the flexibility to move on to new decisions. Its a great position to be in if not a necessity in a cap system.

Draft,development,promote,asset management and cap efficiency is name of the game every year for every team all while trying to remain competitive in the process.

Every job on the planet has someone saying sh!t i wish i done that different but it still worked out good, but i will do it a bit different next time. No different for a GM of the leafs bro.

All in all. Not a bad piece of work but needs tweeks here and there. Great flexibility is paramount i believe. Competitive team coming again. New coach would be good but i will cut him some slack until i see some things.

You might be stubborn on this before you get to see the results

The only gamble Dubas has made (which might workout) is that he has Muzzin and Barrie pending UFAs who might play their hardest for their next contracts which might lead to success for the Leafs this season. I agree with that.

But as a GM his job is not only this season but future as well. I want to see the results and not some expectations based or corsi BS.

I want to see on ice results.

Leafs are probably going to be the only team who have locked in 4 players for almost 50% of the cap; next season when cap increases there are other RFAs like Dermott that need to be paid as well.

It is not just about the so called "super stars" but also about depth and role players on the team

 

[PromisedLand]

The assets traded in both the Muzzin and Barrie trade are nowhere near worth near a blue chip young asset like Nylander.

Being able to bring in two top pairing quality D men while keeping all of the young core assets in place is some of the most complex trading we've seen from a Leafs GM in the entire cap era.

You're 100% in the wrong here.

If you think that Nylander is worth 2 first round picks and Kadri then I would say you need to re-evaluate your analysis of Nylander and his impact on the team's on-ice results

 

[biotk]

dude pick a freakin side

you just freakin said above in a post that draisaitl contract was condemned but is now considered a great contract. Why the hell is this not true for marner as well?

I did pick a side. The side that people on hf are dumb and reactionary.

Drai was signed for 8.5M. The consensus on here was that the contract was completely terrible. They were wrong.
Drai scores 50 goals and 100 points. The consensus on here now has flipped to the contract is amazing. They still are wrong.

Drai's contract was not bad when it was signed. It wasn't great either. Edmonton was worried about an OS - which was legitimate. However, Drai's contract is not amazing now either. Yes, he put up a lot of points and scored a lot of goals, but he is not great without McDavid - which especially sucks on a team that really needs a strong second line.

Nylander's contract is not great. It is not terrible either. Dubas was in the unenviable position of not being able to get a good trade return, and risking Nylander sit out the season. He overpaid him by a bit.

Matthews' contract is not great. It is not terrible either. Dubas was worried about an OS.

Marner is not worth what he is demanding.

 

[ULF_55]

So when people post that dubas should have signed marner to a 8 year deal at around 8 to 9 AAV last summer when marner camp had offered 72 million for 8 years and then posters say that would have been really stupid of dubas to do that....

now would that have been stupid or "smart"?

i.e. having a good hockey foresight is a good thing

I will continue to not believe marner would have ever signed before Matthews.

That would just provide another slight for his entourage to take exception.

 

[PromisedLand]

Dubas looked to trade Nylander in September - November. His contract demands and the difficulty of negotiating with agent sunk his trade value. After the signing his 6.96 cap hit being applied over just 2/3rds of the season meant that it would be very difficult to trade him in season. Who had the cap space to take that on? (Toronto - that is pretty much it) He simply would not have returned the D you think he would have.

The same thing is the case with Marner right now. The contract fiascos with those two are not because of Dubas, or because of the signing of Tavares. Things like the book "The Young Leafs" published after their rookie season warned that this was coming.

Nowhere is it reported that Dubas looked to trade Nylander. That is a lie. I have already addressed this in post #10 in this thread

Salary Cap: - Marner Contract Discussion - Less than 2 weeks to camp