Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion - Less than 2 weeks to camp

[Cleetus]

You might be late to the party but this was discussed in earlier threads

Tax free states have a clear and unequivocal advantage in terms of take home pay.
Multiple GMs. Players and agents have said it. There are calculators on cap friendly.

There was a very illuminating article in the athletic where an accountant for 20 nhl players went through the differences in high tax Canadian markets like montreal/toronto vs tax free states like Nashville and Tampa.

The accountant went through different options. American in Canada. Canadian in Canada. European etc.

It proves just how big of an advantage the tax free markets have

this has to be fixed in the next CBA that it totally nuts

 

[Stamkos4life]

If Dubas gave 9 million to Marner last year, what would he have to have given William? Their numbers were almost identical. Noway William would have settled for 6.9. And no we cant use last year numbers because we dont have crystal balls.

$9M would have been crazy last summer no matter what. People forget Nylander was still seen as the superior player last year by about half the fan base and Matthews was/is seen as the superior player by most people. Paying Marner that much would have inflated things even worse than they are now.

Nylander HAD to be signed first, it was the only possible approach.

What a truly fascinating exercise of hindsight these people are doing eh?

There's no way in hell Nylander's ask is going below $8M (and that's the low end) if the guy who had 8 more points than him signs for $9x8.

Who cares what nylander's ask wouldve been?

The fact that even using hindsight you can't see the error is astounding.

Having marner locked in at 9 mil x 8 would have set an awesome precedence for the auston contract. Instead nylander set the precedence of holding out, getting made whole, getting tons of signing bonuses and only giving 6 years.

Nylander could've sat out or been traded if he wanted 9 mil.

 

[PromisedLand]

Elite zone entries lmao

I wish I got paid 10 million in signing bonuses to have elite zone entries and 27 points

what a life!!!

 

[Legion34]

this has to be fixed in the next CBA that it totally nuts

One of the articles quoted multiple GMs and it Bill Daly. It
Confirmed the advantages but the author basically argued that it is good for the league as southern small markets get the advantages and big markets will pay anyway.

 

[HolyCrap]

One of the articles quoted multiple GMs and it Bill Daly. It
Confirmed the advantages but the author basically argued that it is good for the league as southern small markets get the advantages and big markets will pay anyway.

Yup. And the large Northern markets support the smaller Southern markets and were at a disadvantage being able to sign players due to taxes. It’s not fair. Hope the big markets squash it in the next CBA. Because teams like the Leafs need to flex their muscles.

 

[diceman934]

Only if one considers an RFA player and a UFA player as equals (which they're not), where in one case his own team is the only one bidding for his services while in the other case its free market supply and demand allowing the highest bidder to set market prices.

The UFA procedure is inflationary by its process that is well known. Also why Leafs kids want as short of contracts as possible to eat up their cost controlled RFA years, so they can cash in big on their 3rd contracts as UFAs as soon as possible.

Even if Marner did have arbitration rights its stated clearly in the CBA that UFA contracts are not valid comparables for a RFA player to use for the exact reasons as above.

PS. Both Panarin and Tavares used the UFA process to maximize their earnings but also needed to switch teams to achieve it.. Marner has such an option as a RFA and its called an offersheet in the CBA, but then too if he wants more money/term than Leafs are willing to offer he might have to switch teams to achieve his demands.

Nowhere does it say Dubas is now obligated to pay Marner more because of Panarin or that the landscape has changed for resigning your own RFAs.

You said the ceiling for a winger was 9.5 not me. It is 11.6 as clearly seen by Panarin.

As well gone are the days when looking at high end RFA not getting paid. Clearly the salary structure is changing.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Why trading Mitch Marner might be the only way forward for Leafs | The Star

First, none of the other prominent restricted NHL free agents have signed either, and if you think there’s angst over Marner in Toronto, you might want to check out Winnipeg, where the absence of Patrik Laine and Kyle Connor could sink the Jets season.

But with training camp around the corner, and with the William Nylander experience there for all Leaf fans to reference, it’s pretty clear the Toronto hockey public should get used to the idea Marner won’t be in camp and almost certainly won’t play 82 games this season.

So if you’re Kyle Dubas and your plans of signing Marner to a new contract well before now have clearly not panned out, it’s time to start imagining other possibilities. Such as the scenario under which Marner doesn’t sign and doesn’t play this season.

Or the one that has him playing for some other team.

That’s a crappy scenario, to be sure. He was a crafty pick at fourth overall by the Leafs, he has succeeded beyond expectations, he’s a local lad and everybody likes the little guy who doesn’t let his size hold him back. To consider scenarios that have him performing his wizard act for another NHL team really are not appealing. He’s just too much fun to watch, too much of a competitor.

But that’s the way this might have to go.

To take a stab at the Cup this season, the Leafs have to either have Marner at his best in their lineup or have the assets acquired for Marner in a trade in their lineup. Having neither, with Marner sitting at home unsigned and ineligible, is just unthinkable, really. A team that hasn’t won a Cup in 53 years can’t afford to just throw away opportunities because of a single contract dispute.

 

[Kiwi]

Why trading Mitch Marner might be the only way forward for Leafs | The Star

I don't want to sound like a downer but who here thinks somebody is going to trade us "full value" for Marner whilst he's an unsigned RFA?

Imagine going to you owner and trying to explain how your going to give up multiple quality controlled assets for a guy you still need to sign and wants what's likely to be insane money? You'd gut your own team and be forced to sign Marner to whatever he wants on top of it

Never say never but if I was another owner or GM I wouldn't touch that situation with a 10 foot barge pole, unfortunately I think this is going to be our problem to solve for better or worse

The pessimist in me says this isn't going to be pretty

 

[diceman934]

Mitch is going to play the whole season. At worse he sits out 2/3 games. He is not going to be traded.

My guess is he is signed just before camp starts or just after.

 

[TheBigThree]

I'm starting to hate marner, like really hate him. It's funny, because I was a huge fan of his when everyone was doubting his size. But his loser father really made me hate the marner name.

 

[Damisoph]

I'm starting to hate marner, like really hate him. It's funny, because I was a huge fan of his when everyone was doubting his size. But his loser father really made me hate the marner name.

Jeez man that's kinda irrational. I get fandom, but I can't say I hate anyone that I don't know.

 

[Joey Hoser]

I don't want to sound like a downer but who here thinks somebody is going to trade us "full value" for Marner whilst he's an unsigned RFA?

Imagine going to you owner and trying to explain how your going to give up multiple quality controlled assets for a guy you still need to sign and wants what's likely to be insane money? You'd gut your own team and be forced to sign Marner to whatever he wants on top of it

Never say never but if I was another owner or GM I wouldn't touch that situation with a 10 foot barge pole, unfortunately I think this is going to be our problem to solve for better or worse

The pessimist in me says this isn't going to be pretty

Nobody will trade for him without having a deal worked out beforehand. That's a built-in assumption.

 

[Joey Hoser]

Jeez man that's kinda irrational. I get fandom, but I can't say I hate anyone that I don't know.

Especially because all he did was talk to the media once, like a year ago.

Bunch of nutters around here. Nothing is happening and they're going crazy, thinking everything is crazy.

 

[Notsince67]

It's not a negotiation if you aren't willing to move from your number.
Source = common sense.

Not when the destination is to slam a great player to win a dumb argument

 

[Nooodles]

I'm starting to hate marner, like really hate him. It's funny, because I was a huge fan of his when everyone was doubting his size. But his loser father really made me hate the marner name.

So you cant even decide who you hate.
Funny.

I bet you hate all the other "RFA fathers" and their name. Like all 10 or so.

 

[Dekes For Days]

PS. Both Panarin and Tavares used the UFA process to maximize their earnings but also needed to switch teams to achieve it.

This is untrue. Both Tavares and Panarin got better offers from the teams they left.

 

[thewave]

Yup. And the large Northern markets support the smaller Southern markets and were at a disadvantage being able to sign players due to taxes. It’s not fair. Hope the big markets squash it in the next CBA. Because teams like the Leafs need to flex their muscles.

Canadians are far to often push overs in business, its very alarming. Most have known about this since Gary Gimmick started to convert to a wealth redistribution model. The corruption has now spread to officiating for gambling and the league looks like its integrity is already in question.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The Raptors playing out of the same building owned and operated by the same ownership just realized the value of winning a championship via star player Kawhi Leonard's 'load management ..

Basketball stars also play 2-3 times more per game than hockey stars do, with more individual pressure/effort, and Kawhi was coming off major injuries that could have threatened his career. These situations are not comparable.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Jack Eichel Buffalo's franchise #1C and drafted #2 overall signed for $10 mil X 8 years

Even if Leafs followed that identical strategy for Marner a winger (historically paid/valued less than #1C) and drafted after Eichel in the same draft class it would come out as; $81.5 mil cap x [C.H.%

: 13.33] = $10.86 mil AAV X 8 years

That should be the ceiling for any Marner negotiation

Players aren't paid based on their draft position. Players are paid based on what they have proven in the NHL. Marner has proven way more in the NHL than Eichel did. To suggest that Eichel is Marner's cap because he was drafted higher is ridiculous.

 

[WTFMAN99]

What in your opinion would be the correct breakout system for Toronto?

I love Tampa's breakout scheme but Columbus imposed a super aggressive 1-2-2 strategy that completely stifled them.

St. Louis used a similar strategy in the playoffs too. Seems like these lesser-skilled teams abuse this to frustrate much more skilled teams.

Honestly, they should have more then 1, just like I would say that Tampa needs to have more then 1. You need to see what your opponent is doing and adjust.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Leafs will have no choice by playing and taxing their top 6 more now because there is less talent and less trust in the bottom 2 lines to use regularly.

Essentially Leafs are moving from a top 9 more balanced ATOI/g last year to a Top 6 and Bottom 6 ATOI/g configuration this year due to cap spending

This is untrue. You are once again assuming that expensive bottom 6 = better bottom 6. The talent level of the bottom-6 has not changed at all. If anything, it has improved.

You will see Leafs stars now joining other teams marquee players in ice time not because of want necessarily but because of need.

No, we may seem them approach other star's ice time because we might actually get PPs again, as opposed to the last 2 years.

 

[bentharbs]

I do not think a CBA can ever solve the tax free market issue.

Tax law >>>>> Labour Law. It is a pipe dream to think the NHL can/will change this.

 

[thewave]

I do not think a CBA can ever solve the tax free market issue.

Tax law >>>>> Labour Law. It is a pipe dream to think the NHL can/will change this.

Just make Canadian athletes pseudo ambassadors and adjust the tax to be competitive. The way this country is being run and province, who cares. Canadian teams that can win move money and when money is moving you generate jobs.

Low taxes for NHL/NBA/MLB etc athletes making above 5m a year. Problem solved. Guys making under 5m don't punch their own tickets anyways, its just top tier that matters.

 

[Notsince67]

I don't want to sound like a downer but who here thinks somebody is going to trade us "full value" for Marner whilst he's an unsigned RFA?

Imagine going to you owner and trying to explain how your going to give up multiple quality controlled assets for a guy you still need to sign and wants what's likely to be insane money? You'd gut your own team and be forced to sign Marner to whatever he wants on top of it

Never say never but if I was another owner or GM I wouldn't touch that situation with a 10 foot barge pole, unfortunately I think this is going to be our problem to solve for better or worse

The pessimist in me says this isn't going to be pretty

This is true. Whoever said Marner has no leverage is sleeping on this

 

[Notsince67]

Source for that? Sounds like people making **** up to me.

I heard he was asking for an executive bathroom and an executive assistant to fluff his pillows before he goes to bed
Derangement syndrome is clearly not reserved for Presidents