Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion - 1 week to camp ... nothing

[TheOneArmedMan]

SO he signs Thursday next week? We should start a poll.

Yeah he will probably sign right before the season starts. I don't think they will want their top player to miss any games.

I hope he signs for 10 or under. He is a much better player than Nylander but any more than 10 mill is an overpayment right now

 

[Dekes For Days]

But Point carries Tampa not Kuch.

This is not true at all...

Kucherov is currently one of the best players in the NHL.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Yeah he will probably sign right before the season starts. I don't think they will want their top player to miss any games.

I hope he signs for 10 or under. He is a much better player than Nylander but any more than 10 mill is an overpayment right now

Matthews won't be missing any.Neither will JT

 

[Menzinger]

Mirtle on the leaf report today was saying that the Marner camp is dead set on getting the Matthews deal (same term+dollar amount) and that they believe as a tandem (Marner+Matthews) are the faces of the leafs franchise. It shocks me that even a 3 year term at a high dollar amount hasn’t gotten it done. He also alluded to the fact that the leafs have been very aggressive in trying to get a deal done, as he has reported before

The notion that there's two unreasonable parties here needs to end full stop.

Multiple media reports have suggested the Leafs are prepared to ve flexiblenin terms of aav -Marner camp seemingly refusing to take into consideration any longer term.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

This is not true at all...

Kucherov is currently one of the best players in the NHL.

Most hockey people disagree. Kuch may have most skills of anyone is league but he is far from best hockey player in league. It is about who has game and controls the game. Not who has skills.

 

[Dekes For Days]

BTW, when did I say the stuff about bounces etc that you quoted me as saying? You should edit that.

I see what you're talking about now. I don't know how that happened, but I corrected the post.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Most hockey people disagree.

Not that I put much stock into what "hockey people" say, but no, they really don't say that.

Kuch may have most skills of anyone is league but he is far from best hockey player in league. It is about who has game and controls the game. Not who has skills.

This makes no sense. I have no idea what distinction you are trying to make, or how you can justify it. Kucherov is, by far, the best player on that line. By pretty much any metric you want to go by.

 

[rumman]

Matthews won't be missing any.Neither will JT

Mathews "might" be a better player than Marner, that's when he's not mailing it in or injured.

 

[Menzinger]

Funny how many thought JT would not sign in T.O because he refused to play second fiddle to Matthews. Starting to think it might be true for Marner. He has to know that the longer this goes, the worse it is for his brand. Yet here we are.

Part of the issue is that it seems a lot of younger star nhlers have fairly inflated egos.

It's natural though - they spend their entire youth getting heaped with praise amd are often by far the best player on any team they play for -until they make the NHL, where suddey they're surrounded by similarly skilled guys and some may have a hard time mentally adjusting that they may not be top dog anymore

 

[Confucius]

Don't hold your breath for that to happen

So Mitch really has little choice. Lmao! And around we go, yeah I got sucked into this vortex.

 

[Confucius]

I don't believe he wants 8 years.

At one time RFA's would give up 4 ufa years in order to cash in on close to their worth, rather than just play for scraps over the next 4 rfa years. Now RfA's want their worth and consider it they are doing the team a favour by giving up 1 ufa year.

I'm telling ya the gms in this league are their own worst enemies.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Pretty sure Leafs did not want a repeat of the Nylander saga with Marner, and as such should have been motivated to get a deal done sooner than later, yet here we are which points the finger at Marner for a deal not getting done already (IMO).

Of course it points at Marner. The Leafs have apparently offered 3 x $8.75. That's already a significant overpayment for that term, the fact that it wasn't agreed to means they're being unreasonable (at least on a 3 year term).

 

[Mess]

No team will make these trades without deals in place first.

I don't think Hfboards has a tongue-in-cheek emoji I could have posted.

The brayden point I was making was Marner would be worth $8.5 mil or less on full term if he were in Tampa Bay right now as Kucherov and Stamkos score more points and make far less current $$ on full term UFA contracts as his comparables than Marner is asking for in TO as a RFA to boot.

NHL salaries and contracts are intended to be league based, not team based, when comparables are being used by player agents.

Marner being worth $10-$11 mil AAV on shorter term in Toronto and > $8.5 mil AAV on full 8 year terms in TB defies how the NHL is intended to operate when contracts are signed.

Marner should be worth the same contract for all teams league wide not just Leafs.

Ferris and Marner appear to be abusing the system and trying to get pull the wool over Leafs GM eyes, using his past contracts of JT and AM against him as leverage. Hopefully Dubas is too smart to mess this up.

Then all other unsigned RFAs Point/Rantanen etc. will use Marner's new contact as their league wide comparables again the way things work normally.

What is happening to the entire market is our Leafs are becoming the "market setters" elevating the ceilings and driving up contracts for the entire NHLPA. That is why everybody is waiting on the Leafs to go first and them to piggyback on their advatange off the new higher rates.

 

[Sypher04]

All other unsigned RFAs including Marner are apparently waiting on Dubas here to go first, so they can go afterwards as that contract sets the the new salary cap ceiling. This appears to be the cause of the contract holdups around the NHL.

Easy solution here where a trade solves everything ..

Step #1
Marner to the Lightning --> Point to the Avs --> Ratanten to the Leafs

Step #2
Marner in TB can't ask for Matthews money, if he is no longer his teammate, as he would be capped by new teammates Kucherov making $9.5 mil X 8 and Stamkos making $8.5 mil X 8 years. Now those are his new internal comparables and since he has less points not more than both, his asking price is no longer as the team highest scorer.

So after Marner signs for the Stamkos/Draisaitl deals [$8.5 mil X 7] in TB (which were last summers #s), and is the current fair market value price. Then Avs get Point and Leafs get Rantanen under contract for $8.5 mil or less in short order thereafter, now that pecking order and ceiling has been established.

Step #3
Marner to the Leafs --> Point to the Lightning--> Ratanten to the Avs

This solution is a joke, right?

Beyond incessant and likely unfounded media and fan speculation there doesn't appear to be any reason to believe there's any more truth to everyone waiting on Marner than everyone waiting on Point, or Rantanen.

 

[BlueForever75]

Funny how many thought JT would not sign in T.O because he refused to play second fiddle to Matthews. Starting to think it might be true for Marner. He has to know that the longer this goes, the worse it is for his brand. Yet here we are.

Marner and his family always thought they played second fiddle through his entire career. It started with McDavid all through his playing career together, and now its Matthews. The Marner family has always caused drama wanting to be treated like the #1 everywhere.

Problem is if he thought he lost in junior like he did to McDavid. He and his family are ridiculous to think that at the pro level they will win.

Its a lose-lose situation and if he continues this, its time to jettison him away. This drama isn't needed. They don't have a leg to stand on as they didn't against McDavid in the past.

 

[Sypher04]

If Shanny has entered the negotiations it is only because Dubie got rolled over by Willy last summer. But I don't think that is true. I think what Shanny wanted to do at start of negotiations was ensure nothing from either side hit the media. and that is what has occurred. There are a lot of people like Dreger speculating on things here. Paul is saying nothing to his friends. The Leafs side is saying nothing. I can't believe Dreger has an insight into the agent. What may be happening is other NHL team execs trying to get Mitch may be leaking some stuff to Dreger. But I think that is even a stretch. and even that would be 3rd hand info.
What I believe is Paul will not want to lose a big paycheck. He is a drama king but no dummy. I think it may go down where he makes a final offer in between the 2 sides positions like he did last summer.

Dubas and Nylander ended up on a pretty fair deal last year. Sooner or later you guys will have to realize this. Any insinuation that Dubas "Got rolled" in the Nylander negotiation simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

I also don't believe Shanahan likely has "entered the negotiations" as people suggest. If anything, I'd think he maybe was involved in a conversation but I'm sure people would read that as a vote of non-confidence when in reality he may have just had something to offer to the process. For all we know Dubas inviting him in for one of the chats, as another voice to present an angle and he bowed out immediately thereafter.

I will say I definitely don't put a shred of trust in the report that dubas/Marner had a bridge deal and that shanahan shut it down. I'm pretty confident that never happened.

 

[ULF_55]

Marner and his family always thought they played second fiddle through his entire career. It started with McDavid all through his playing career together, and now its Matthews. The Marner family has always caused drama wanting to be treated like the #1 everywhere.

Problem is if he thought he lost in junior like he did to McDavid. He and his family are ridiculous to think that at the pro level they will win.

Its a lose-lose situation and if he continues this, its time to jettison him away. This drama isn't needed. They don't have a leg to stand on as they didn't against McDavid in the past.

Leafs are a much better team with all their assets engaged.

Sign them or deal them.

None are bigger than the team.

I'll watch and the cheer on the team if you traded every single player and so will everyone else that feeds their coffers every year.

Team could be even better if they turned a #1 winger into a #1 defender.

 

[ACC1224]

Of course it points at Marner. The Leafs have apparently offered 3 x $8.75. That's already a significant overpayment for that term, the fact that it wasn't agreed to means they're being unreasonable (at least on a 3 year term).

Does everything change if they haven't offered what you feel is apparent?

 

[kb]

Leafs are a much better team with all their assets engaged.

Sign them or deal them.

None are bigger than the team.

I'll watch and the cheer on the team if you traded every single player and so will everyone else that feeds their coffers every year.

Team could be even better if they turned a #1 winger into a #1 defender.

Something like Ekblad with various pieces to even things out?

 

[TheProspector]

Marner is seriously disappointing his fans here.

 

[BlueForever75]

If Rantanen signs soon, it will dictate how high Marner's contract actually can be.

This is the only way that this stalemate will end. What I don't get is that with rumors circulating that Rantanen and Point are no long going to wait for Marner to dictate market value. Why would the Marner camp hold firm on their ask? If Rantanen and Point sign significantly lower deals, it will only impact the offers he has already rejected.

Makes no sense to me.

 

[Sypher04]

If Rantanen signs soon, it will dictate how high Marner's contract actually can be.

This is the only way that this stalemate will end. What I don't get is that with rumors circulating that Rantanen and Point are no long going to wait for Marner to dictate market value. Why would the Marner camp hold firm on their ask? If Rantanen and Point sign significantly lower deals, it will only impact the offers he has already rejected.

Makes no sense to me.

The reality most likely is that neither Point or Rantanen ever were waiting on Marner specifically to sign

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Dubas and Nylander ended up on a pretty fair deal last year. Sooner or later you guys will have to realize this. Any insinuation that Dubas "Got rolled" in the Nylander negotiation simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

I also don't believe Shanahan likely has "entered the negotiations" as people suggest. If anything, I'd think he maybe was involved in a conversation but I'm sure people would read that as a vote of non-confidence when in reality he may have just had something to offer to the process. For all we know Dubas inviting him in for one of the chats, as another voice to present an angle and he bowed out immediately thereafter.

I will say I definitely don't put a shred of trust in the report that dubas/Marner had a bridge deal and that shanahan shut it down. I'm pretty confident that never happened.

Virtually 100% guaranteed Dubie and Ferris did NOT have a deal. Dubie is GM. If he struck a handshake deal then MLSE would be stuck with it. And I doubt he said look we have a deal between us but I need to get Shanny to agree before I finalize it. Those kind of things just do not happen with smart guys like Dubie. He puts himself in a really bad spot going forward in that negotiation and as GM.
We can all agree to disagree on what was fair at time for Willy. I like Willy as you know but I don't like he is making more than Pasta. He is not even close as good period. Willy got 500K too much. Some would argue 1M too much with Ehlers. I figure somewhere in between was right. But very hard to argue Dubie did not overpay on that one.

 

[member 157595]

If Rantanen signs soon, it will dictate how high Marner's contract actually can be.

This is the only way that this stalemate will end. What I don't get is that with rumors circulating that Rantanen and Point are no long going to wait for Marner to dictate market value. Why would the Marner camp hold firm on their ask? If Rantanen and Point sign significantly lower deals, it will only impact the offers he has already rejected.

Makes no sense to me.

It's disappointing to me that the Leafs often need to be the ones to set market value in the first place.

 

[BlueForever75]

The reality most likely is that neither Point or Rantanen ever were waiting on Marner specifically to sign

If true then Marner and camp must not be liking the fact that those two players can possibly sign for much less then what he is asking for!!!

How can they have any leverage at all if that unfolds?