Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion - 1 week to camp ... nothing

[Sypher04]

I mean what most who are saying he should get Matthews money are saying. Difference between them is minimal other than centre vs wing arguement. In this case it matters little as Marner has more of the centre premium attributes than Matthews (defensive responsibilities, creates for linemates etc).

The problem is that he gave Matthews the best contract in the league from a players perspective. The only way that 5 year term is good is if Matthews busts in which case I would argue there are other problems with it.

Look at it objectively without the OMG we don't have enough space to sign him at 10+ M, forget dollars, forget term, over the last 3 seasons has he been just as valuable as Matthews? If no how big is the gap. IMO its pretty darn small. Marner is that Gilmour type - do anything to win, Matthews is more Rick Vaive, a goal scorer who does not do much else. Those guys usually play RW. I would love to see them on same line with Marner at C and Matthews benefiting from Marners feeds.

Your assessment of Marner vs Matthews is pretty inaccurate.

Starting with the idea that somehow Marner is better or has more responsibility defensively than Matthews defensively, because he's not. Or that he creates more for his linemates. Passing plays, sure, but that's not the only way to generate offensive chances. Also, positionally there is a huge difference between being a responsible center and being a responsible winger. Don't make the mistake of thinking just because Mitch is used on the penalty kill that inherently makes him defensively better than those who are not.

Also saying Matthews doesn't do much else beyond goal scoring is pretty ridiculous. That's no more accurate than claiming Marner does nothing much beyond passing the puck.

 

[Gary Nylund]

No, I mean why didn't they offer him that contract instead of having Montreal negotiate for them?

They didn't consult with me so I can't answer that but there are a number of possible reasons. Bottom line is that as soon as we heard about the offer sheet, everyone said that for sure it would be matched (even by the miserly Hurricanes) because it was so obviously a good deal for the team.

 

[janesy12]

There are so many examples of guys signing 5-6 year deals then resigning with their team. Almost every single high quality player in the league for a long time.

Why do fans always have to assume no one wants to be in Toronto ?

That's my point. I think we have a better shot than anyone to re-sign him. He wants to win a cup, be in the spotlight, be successful individually and make a lot of money.
The Leafs perhaps give him the best chance at 3 of those 4 things, and I believe he'll be named Captain for sure. He's the face of the franchise. The question becomes what would he rather? Go home and play with a mediocre team who is constantly being bailed out by the league financially, and be a hero to a small group of people in Arizona. Or be the face and Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs. If he wants the spotlight, attention, and money buddy Toronto is it. My bet is he's a Leaf until at least the age of 34.

 

[Joey Hoser]

IMO, the primary reason that Matthews contract is viewed as bad is because McDavid deserved a max contract and took considerably less than that, while Matthews got about what he deserved. That put them closer than they probably should be.

In a hypothetical world where McDavid took the max and the rest of the league followed suit, then Matthews would be pretty underpaid at his current salary. He's only getting like 65-70% of the max.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Your assessment of Marner vs Matthews is pretty inaccurate.

Starting with the idea that somehow Marner is better or has more responsibility defensively than Matthews defensively, because he's not. Or that he creates more for his linemates. Passing plays, sure, but that's not the only way to generate offensive chances. Also, positionally there is a huge difference between being a responsible center and being a responsible winger. Don't make the mistake of thinking just because Mitch is used on the penalty kill that inherently makes him defensively better than those who are not.

Also saying Matthews doesn't do much else beyond goal scoring is pretty ridiculous. That's no more accurate than claiming Marner does nothing much beyond passing the puck.

I agree with your assessment. I just feel like the Matthews contract was too hasty. The only good thing it did was eliminate another headache for the summer. Was Dubi that scared of an offer sheet? I doubt he would have gotten offer sheeted. We saw one very weak offer sheet this summer, that’s it. You think Arizona would have offered him the max?

 

[Suntouchable13]

They didn't consult with me so I can't answer that but there are a number of possible reasons. Bottom line is that as soon as we heard about the offer sheet, everyone said that for sure it would be matched (even by the miserly Hurricanes) because it was so obviously a good deal for the team.

It wasn’t that good. All the money upfront. I am sure they are not thrilled with that.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It wasn’t that good. All the money upfront. I am sure they are not thrilled with that.

Good enough that nobody thought Carolina wouldn't match, that's the bottom line.

 

[The Moose is Loose]

No Dubas fanboy here, just not a negative Dubas hater.

Just answer the question, what should his contract be on 5 year term and on 8 year term ?

His contract should have been around 10.5-11 million on 8 year term, as McDavid>>Matthews>Eichel so he falls in the middle.

On 5 years it should have easily been under 10, as that shorter term is highly preferable for the player.

 

[ULF_55]

It wasn’t that good. All the money upfront. I am sure they are not thrilled with that.

The return just wasn't good enough to even consider. Give or take a 1-1.5 million isn't huge, but the return is quite different.

Next tier maybe makes the 'Canes think, but 1st., 2nd., 3rd. just doesn't have the same feel as 1st., 1st., 2nd., 3rd.

 

[Buds17]

There are so many examples of guys signing 5-6 year deals then resigning with their team. Almost every single high quality player in the league for a long time.

Why do fans always have to assume no one wants to be in Toronto ?

From my viewpoint, it might just be that others with higher cap hits in the league (McDavid, Panarin, Tavares, Doughty, Kane, Price) signed for the maximum term available to them.

I think Toronto will be a great place to stay and play as long as the team remains competitive.

 

[Buds17]

It wasn’t that good. All the money upfront. I am sure they are not thrilled with that.

Maybe not. Between that and what the compensation would have been though, it would have been tough to part ways with the player simply over those two factors.

 

[18leafsfan18]

That's my point. I think we have a better shot than anyone to re-sign him. He wants to win a cup, be in the spotlight, be successful individually and make a lot of money.
The Leafs perhaps give him the best chance at 3 of those 4 things, and I believe he'll be named Captain for sure. He's the face of the franchise. The question becomes what would he rather? Go home and play with a mediocre team who is constantly being bailed out by the league financially, and be a hero to a small group of people in Arizona. Or be the face and Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs. If he wants the spotlight, attention, and money buddy Toronto is it. My bet is he's a Leaf until at least the age of 34.

Didn't mean to make it sound like I didn't agree with you. I do agree.

Many fans just always act like the sky is falling.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

IMO, the primary reason that Matthews contract is viewed as bad is because McDavid deserved a max contract and took considerably less than that, while Matthews got about what he deserved. That put them closer than they probably should be.

In a league where the superstars like McDavid make league maximum, every single other star player would make considerably more money.

This is not unique to just the Matthews contract.

 

[18leafsfan18]

His contract should have been around 10.5-11 million on 8 year term, as McDavid>>Matthews>Eichel so he falls in the middle.

On 5 years it should have easily been under 10, as that shorter term is highly preferable for the player.

IMO and obviously the Maple Leafs opinion McDavid>Matthews>>Eichel. Which is exactly where he is slotted (13 AAV x 8 was reported ask, went down to 11.6 x 5 to help with cap space).

Where is the math or evidence to back up the under 10 on a 5 yr deal ?

 

[janesy12]

Didn't mean to make it sound like I didn't agree with you. I do agree.

Many fans just always act like the sky is falling.

Nah it's all good. I knew what you meant. It's a great time to be a Leaf fan. Hopefully we get Marner signed soon and we can enjoy a long playoff run.

 

[18leafsfan18]

From my viewpoint, it might just be that others with higher cap hits in the league (McDavid, Panarin, Tavares, Doughty, Kane, Price) signed for the maximum term available to them.

I think Toronto will be a great place to stay and play as long as the team remains competitive.

Just using your examples: Panarin, Tavares, Kane & Price all signed for less then 8 years after their ELC. Exactly my point.

Way more players have signed less then 8 years after ELC then the amount that have.

Matthews wanted the 8 year contract but the two sides negotiated and settled on the 5 yr 11.6 to save cap room.

Something Marner should learn about.

 

[The Moose is Loose]

IMO and obviously the Maple Leafs opinion McDavid>Matthews>>Eichel. Which is exactly where he is slotted (13 AAV x 8 was reported ask, went down to 11.6 x 5 to help with cap space).

Where is the math or evidence to back up the under 10 on a 5 yr deal ?

13 million by 8 is a brutal overpay. What had Matthews done, at all, to be the highest paid player in the league?

It should have been around 11 with term, not 13, and logic would say when looking at 11 for 8 years, 5 years would come in under 10 million

 

[18leafsfan18]

13 million by 8 is a brutal overpay. What had Matthews done, at all, to be the highest paid player in the league?

It should have been around 11 with term, not 13, and logic would say when looking at 11 for 8 years, 5 years would come in under 10 million

13 AAV would put him 1% below McDavid and 2.4 % above Eichel. Exactly where he should be slotted and exactly where he is slotted.

Cap ceiling goes up every year. Can't compare $ to $.

Is Panarin worth $1.1 AAV more then Kane or $2.9 AAV more then Crosby ?

 

[mouser]

I think you should talk to a few of the players yourself. When you can't find a single NHL contracted player in favor of the current escrow arrangement then I think you will honestly have to change your mind about your stance. Of course my businesses do not have a 50/50 revenue split. But when you sign a contract with someone and ultimately it means very little on your take home comp because of some overriding CBA i think you would be upset too. Especially when you don't understand why sponsorships (which truly only exist in Toronto because of the players) are not included in HRR. If I sell a jersey of Leafs with no name or number on it it is HRR. If I sell a jersey with a name and number on it it is HRR. If I sell a hot dog at the game it is HRR. If people park next door in a lot that I own to go to the game that is not HRR. If I sell naming rights to a practice rink (because Leafs practice there) it is not HRR. If I take in franchise fees of $700M it is not HRR. If my company buys a box at Scotia it is HRR. If my company buys sponsorship to advertise at both Raps and Leafs and concerts it is not HRR. I could go on and on here but the whole thing seems and feels like a sham to every player.

Parking next door in a lot controlled by the team or an affiliated entity is HRR.

Sponsorships are HRR, though the rate at which they are included could vary depending on details like permanent vs temporary signage and arena tenancy.

 

[Suntouchable13]

13 million by 8 is a brutal overpay. What had Matthews done, at all, to be the highest paid player in the league?

It should have been around 11 with term, not 13, and logic would say when looking at 11 for 8 years, 5 years would come in under 10 million

I agree. Dubi panicked. He thought there will be a massive offer sheet coming.

 

[mouser]

Every offersheet attempt to steal is designed so the original team will not match and you get the player so its an overpayment by design. The goal of any successful offersheet is not so the original team gets their own player a fair market value, while you waste your time helping other teams get their players under contract for them.

Carolina his own team certainly wasn't willing to give Aho that, but matching was better than the comp picks, so their hand was forced to accept the contract another teams GM signed your player to.

If this were an arbitration case for Marner he couldn't even use Aho OS total as his comparable as the CBA even states that directly as inadmissible, because of the understood inflationary nature of that process of that other CBA tool usage.

If Aho and Marner are seen as close comparables despite Seabass being a centre which are valued higher than a winger. Then Leafs paying their own player willingly more than another teams offersheet attempt to steal amount by intentionally bidding up an opponents contract, that would be the definition of an overpayment.

One of the major deterrents of an offersheet usage is the future fear of retaliation.. Not much fear if defending one gets your player signed at fair prices by matching it.

Offer sheet contracts are admissible in salary arbitration.

 

[4thline]

I agree. Dubi panicked. He thought there will be a massive offer sheet coming.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[The Moose is Loose]

13 AAV would put him 1% below McDavid and 2.4 % above Eichel. Exactly where he should be slotted and exactly where he is slotted.

Cap ceiling goes up every year. Can't compare $ to $.

Is Panarin worth $1.1 AAV more then Kane or $2.9 AAV more then Crosby ?

It was only 1 year later, not really too crazy to compare $ to $ and you have to look at it going into negotiations what does Matthews have in his corner to claim "I should be the highest paid player in the entire league". Literally nothing.

And not to mention, when is he suddenly slotted 1% under McDavid? Their NHL resumes are so different its not even funny, how is that "Exactly where he should be slotted"?

 

[The Moose is Loose]

I agree. Dubi panicked. He thought there will be a massive offer sheet coming.

He did panic, but I don't understand the pressure. There was still a year of ELC left, an offer sheet wouldn't be happening for almost a year.

 

[18leafsfan18]

It was only 1 year later, not really too crazy to compare $ to $ and you have to look at it going into negotiations what does Matthews have in his corner to claim "I should be the highest paid player in the entire league". Literally nothing.

And not to mention, when is he suddenly slotted 1% under McDavid? Their NHL resumes are so different its not even funny, how is that "Exactly where he should be slotted"?

Eichel is 3% under McDavid and Matthews is better then Eichel.

What percent would you expect ?