Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion - 1 week to camp ... nothing

[18leafsfan18]

Sounds like the players are less happy than the owners, but that doesn't mean a renegotiated deal would be better for marner.

Owners lose on escrow and players lose on when they become UFA?
Owners gain more control and players gain more cash.

If RFA's are getting UFA money, maybe that's something they can live with?

a 3 year deal might not end up being 1 year from UFA status.

I'm not anywhere close to an expert on CBA etc, but if a contract is signed under the current CBA wouldn't the rules of the current CBA apply to the life of that contract ?

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Owners already decided not to terminate the current CBA (current CBA will run until 2022 if players also decide not to terminate).

We will know by Sept 15 if the players decide to terminate.

They’ve already said they would extend, now it’s up to the players to announce their intentions by Sep 12 th, I think is the date.

NHL decision could help pave the way to labor peace until 2025 - TheHockeyNews

Thanks guys. Didn't see the announcement.

 

[ShaneFalco]

 

[Gary Nylund]

Every offersheet attempt to steal is designed so the original team will not match and you get the player so its an overpayment by design. The goal of any successful offersheet is not so the original team gets their own player a fair market value, while you waste your time helping other teams get their players under contract for them.

Carolina his own team certainly wasn't willing to give Aho that, but matching was better than the comp picks.

If this were an arbitration case for Marner he couldn't even use Aho OS total as his comparable as the CBA even states that directly as inadmissible, because of the understood inflationary nature of that process of that other CBA tool usage.

You'd have to be incredibly naive to think that this offer sheet wouldn't be matched, in fact I can't remember hearing even one person thinking it wouldn't be. Carolina was probably thrilled when this happened and thought wow, we never thought we'd get him THIS CHEAP!

I'd say you're the only person in the entire world who thinks that what Aho got was an overpayment.

 

[4thline]

I'm not anywhere close to an expert on CBA etc, but if a contract is signed under the current CBA wouldn't the rules of the current CBA apply to the life of that contract ?

Not necessarily, the first lockout delivered at 24% rollback to all contracts. individual contracts are subordinate to the CBA.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Not necessarily, the first lockout delivered at 24% rollback to all contracts. individual contracts are subordinate to the CBA.

Oh ic.

That's not that great of news, if a bunch of contract changes come into play.

 

[ULF_55]

I'm not anywhere close to an expert on CBA etc, but if a contract is signed under the current CBA wouldn't the rules of the current CBA apply to the life of that contract ?

Other more knowledgeable can answer, but if your current contract doesn't take you to UFA status there would be no violation of that contract if the league changed the rules on UFA status. Your next contract would be negotiated under the new agreement not the expired agreement.

 

[ULF_55]

Oh ic.

That's not that great of news, if a bunch of contract changes come into play.

I don't know if the fans of the Leafs would be upset with changes.
I doubt players would get more freedom, it really seems to be about money.
To get more money players would have to give up something, signing bonus limitation or perhaps free agency.
If it gets to signing bonuses then it could get ugly with COL differentials / taxation adjustments ...

Right now I'd be fine as a Leafs fans if they added a couple years to gain UFA status in exchange for escrow changes.

 

[Walshy7]

id love him so much more if he turned up to his first game dressed exactly like this. Moustache and all

 

[horner]

Well Kucharov outscored Marner by 34 points yet money-Mitch wants to be paid more so figure that one out

he was comparing Marner to Keller wow

 

[18leafsfan18]

I don't know if the fans of the Leafs would be upset with changes.
I doubt players would get more freedom, it really seems to be about money.
To get more money players would have to give up something, signing bonus limitation or perhaps free agency.
If it gets to signing bonuses then it could get ugly with COL differentials / taxation adjustments ...

Right now I'd be fine as a Leafs fans if they added a couple years to gain UFA status in exchange for escrow changes.

I just mean, if GMs are unaware of changes that may happen in the next CBA there could be come major issues.

 

[horner]

Well Kucharov outscored Marner by 34 points yet money-Mitch wants to be paid more so figure that one out

Mathews is not worth a ton more than kucharov.
we can all play that game.

 

[hfman]

I don't think it'll happen but I suspect the owners will not extend the collective agreement and that there will be a lockout. Again.

All 31 GMs need to get together and agree to not sign any of these players that are holding out. Let them sit all year. The players will all lose big money, and their values will drop for next year.

win win.

don't know how legal it is though. can the GMs legally do this or is it called collusion or something


and after what happened with nylander... i wouldn't be surprised to see the Leafs letting marner sit out all year

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I'm not anywhere close to an expert on CBA etc, but if a contract is signed under the current CBA wouldn't the rules of the current CBA apply to the life of that contract ?

Yes but amendments can be agreed by both sides. If owners agree to a smaller escrow hold than players will likely vote to play to end of contract if they know contract will change from roughly a 15% hold to a maybe 7.5% hold. I don't know the exact numbers they want yet but it was discussed yesterday. Clearly no one on exec committee will spill the beans. To give you an idea roughly 10% per year per contract is not being paid to players. So a 10% fixed hold likely the NHL owners would agree to it. But if it is 7.5% then it gets a little more dicey. I am sure the union wants to gain some ground on this issue and the NHL knows this is what is going on. It should be interesting to see what goes down in next 2 weeks. My guess is hold goes down to something like 9%. So union can say ok the NHL is now taking on some risk here it is not just the players taking the entire risk on.

 

[supermann_98]

Mathews is worth a ton more than kucharov.
we can all play that game.

Not based on who won the “most valuable” player in the league last year.

 

[member 157595]

Mathews is worth a ton more than kucharov.
we can all play that game.

wat

 

[Mess]

so Mike johnson puts marner behind point and rantanen.

have to agree, but aren't we lucky!

I watched that show and it was very interesting that on merit and position of the unsigned RFAs should be 1) Point 2) Rantanen 3) Marner in order of $$, however both Johnson and Noodles believed Marner would be the highest paid.

Also host Gino Reda responded with now we can see why other Agents/RFAs are waiting on Marner to go first as they believe he raises the bar for others that will follow.

 

[Suntouchable13]

You'd have to be incredibly naive to think that this offer sheet wouldn't be matched, in fact I can't remember hearing even one person thinking it wouldn't be. Carolina was probably thrilled when this happened and thought wow, we never thought we'd get him THIS CHEAP!

I'd say you're the only person in the entire world who thinks that what Aho got was an overpayment.

If it was so cheap, why didn't they sign him themselves?

 

[thewave]

People were saying that the Nylander contract was an overpayment when it was signed. Today, not so much.

People were saying that the Drasaitl contract was an overpayment when it was signed. Today, not so much.

The Matthews contract might look like a bargain a year from now so you might want to cool it with the histrionics. Not just you mind you, there's a bunch of you that should just take a pill or something.

Hopefully Marner is signed soon and we can put all this nonsense behind us. This roster is stacked and if we can stay healthy, we're gonna be tough to beat. This just might be the year ...

It was an overpayment, comparatively its a joke though. Nylander got 500k a year premium, Matthews 3 years or about 2m-2.5m per, take your pick. With Marner wanting Matthews money? Tough time to be Leafs Brass. Marner at Matthews money and term would be about 3m-3.5m per overpay. That's about 5.5m or almost a JVR level player worth... The overpays would pay Rielly...

Really disappointed, hope they can spend 1sts and get a champ team within 3yrs

 

[4thline]

If it was so cheap, why didn't they sign him themselves?

There's a house you think is worth 950k, but you're the only eligible buyer so you only want to pay 750k
A 2nd eligible buyer emerges, and is willing to pay 850k, despite also having to pay a foreign buyers tax of 10%.

 

[Nineteen67]

I don't know if the fans of the Leafs would be upset with changes.
I doubt players would get more freedom, it really seems to be about money.
To get more money players would have to give up something, signing bonus limitation or perhaps free agency.
If it gets to signing bonuses then it could get ugly with COL differentials / taxation adjustments ...

Right now I'd be fine as a Leafs fans if they added a couple years to gain UFA status in exchange for escrow changes.

I’d like for the teams to report all their HRR so the players don’t have to give back 10-15% of their earnings.

 

[Menzinger]

"better" is without context. Put Keller with Matthews and then you will have apples to apples comparison; throwing out the word "better" without context is not useful

Keller's underlying number last season were absolutely dresdful.

I'm a fan of Keller, but there's a fair gap between those two

 

[Menzinger]

Auston Matthews 3 seasons:

40 goals 82 games
34 goals 62 games
37 goals 68 games

Total 111 goals 205 points in 212 games FOR HIS ELC

82 game pace: 43 goals 79 points (Last 2 seasons: 82 games 45 goals 86 points)

John Tavares ELC and top 3 seasons prior before UFA:

ELC -
24 goals in 82 games
29 goals in 79 games
31 goals in 82 games

Total 82 goals 202 points in 243 games FOR HIS ELC

82 game pace: 28 goals 68 points

Top 3 seasons -
38 goals in 82 games (age 24)
37 goals in 82 games (age 27)
33 goals in 78 games (age 25)

Total 108 goals 240 points in 242 games

82 game pace: 37 goals 81 points


As you can clearly see. AUSTON ****S ON JT not only on his ELC but in his top 3 career seasons as an Islander. And JT played with players a hell of a lot more talented than what Auston has had to work with.

People on HF severely underrate Auston Matthews because he's been injured both these past two seasons. But for someone that plays with a 60 point Nylander and pretty much all 40 points and below wingers him putting up 45 goal pace and over PPG over the past 2 seasons is absolutely absurd.

I'm willing to bet this account that if Auston has a full season, he will absolutely **** all over the league. This kid has McDavid level abilities without an outstanding talent like McDavid's speed. All he needs is good health and one god damned good player to play with. Willy can be that player but our coach needs to figure things out. Auston is absolutely capable of averaging 50 goals and 100+ points every year.

Its jaw dropping how undervalued Matthew'a is to a certain group of Leafs fans is still so strange to me.

A goal scoring centre like him is one of the most unique players in the league

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I’d like for the teams to report all their HRR so the players don’t have to give back 10-15% of their earnings.

Great idea but it will never ever happen. Why would owners do it if they think players will extend with minor adjustments to escrow %? This issue will come up again when the contract expires. When MLSE takes in $$$ for naming rights for their practice facility (which rents to other groups incl Leafs too) and it is considered sponsored money, not HRR, because of community welfare and multiple uses the other issue is what should be in the HRR pool. So you have 2 issues on HRR: One is reporting of it and the other is what should be in the pool? If you believe that MLSE would be able to sell naming rights without Leafs as one of the tenants than you are kidding yourself.

 

[Sypher04]

I’d like for the teams to report all their HRR so the players don’t have to give back 10-15% of their earnings.

Im honestly curious what it matters to you... I mean, I agree they take too long to return the escrow money and should improve that whole process, but at the end of the day the players do get their split eventually. In a 50/50 split escrow is virtually an inevitability, the issue is the time they are taking to sort it which isn't acceptable. Increasing HRR grows the cap but does nothing to fix escrow