Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion - 1 week to camp ... nothing

[Confucius]

You’re out of cap space.

how so? im holding approximately 10 million in capspace until Dec 2nd

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Swedish meatballs

they are pretty good though

Larga order of a meataballs and pasta money ha

 

[18leafsfan18]

Marner sitting out this year, where we're basically all in gives him all the leverage he needs. We don't have Marner for the year it's basically a wasted season and that Barrie trade is all for nothing, the pressure continues to build, etc.

When was I being negative btw? I am being completely realistic in my judgement of this situation. Not my problem people are hyper-sensitive about the truth and get defensive calling you a disloyal fan and a pessimist because they can't handle it.

Keep having those hopes up in the clouds and you're going to be let down a lot.

In your scenario the Leafs have Marner sit out and dont replace him in anyway.

The Leafs are nowhere close to "all in" this year. They have at the very least a 5 yr window as of today.

The Barrie trade included a player with virtually the same stats last year as Kadri on a lower cap hit for an additional year.

Look at that. You looked at the negative side of every single one of your points. Also none of the things you looked at realistically.

Your really hurt by that joke comment eh?

 

[Nineteen67]

how so? im holding approximately 10 million in capspace until Dec 2nd

You’re not signing a replacement player?

And the LTIR diminishes daily. Whatever $ amount you can’t pay is what a GM will offer Marner.

 

[Hockey Crazy]

"better" is without context. Put Keller with Matthews and then you will have apples to apples comparison; throwing out the word "better" without context is not useful

Nylander is a much better player than Keller. What if Nylander was the main man on the PP? Look at Keller's play driving stats... hes a much more ordinary rookie/sophmore than Nylander was. Sounds like you just want to pout until Dubas gets fired... it's going to be a long time so maybe try to enjoy some hockey and relax.

 

[ZippityDooDa]

Nylander is a better player signed to a lower cap hit, but let's not talk about that.

We can talk about it. One played beside a superstar generational goalscorer for his only successful seasons and the other didn't. Hard to say which is really the better player at this point.

Keller led the team with 47 points last season with no offensive quality around him. They could hardly score but were very stingy defensively.

 

[Confucius]

You’re not signing a replacement player?

And the LTIR diminishes daily. Whatever $ amount you can’t pay is what a GM will offer Marner.

that's why I don't sign a replacement player. It took William's 6.9 mill av on dec 1st to get us to 10 mill cap hit. if you can get the caphit to 10.5 and want to give up four 1sts, for two thirds of a season. I think you wouldn't last too long.

 

[PromisedLand]

Nylander is a much better player than Keller. What if Nylander was the main man on the PP? Look at Keller's play driving stats... hes a much more ordinary rookie/sophmore than Nylander was. Sounds like you just want to pout until Dubas gets fired... it's going to be a long time so maybe try to enjoy some hockey and relax.

"context" matters when talking about numbers

the "driving plays" stats are a combination of scoring chances and corsi (depending on what you use)

Nylander played with Matthews most of his career; did Keller play with a player like Matthews?

Nylander being the main man on PP and the comparison only makes sense if you he is to be that main man with a roster or PP unit like the yotes; don't compare that with the Leafs it is not apples to apples comparison

 

[Nithoniniel]

We can talk about it. One played beside a superstar generational goalscorer for his only successful seasons and the other didn't. Hard to say which is really the better player at this point.

Keller led the team with 47 points last season with no offensive quality around him. They could hardly score but were very stingy defensively.

Metrics that isolate player impact from factors like linemates have Nylander as the far, far better player. Nylander grades out as a very good player there, while Keller is in the negatives. As for being very stingy defensively, that has very little to do with Keller whose defense has been heavily criticized. Also disagree with "no offensive quality" as his most common linemate was Stepan who is normally a 55-60 point player.

At this point in time, Keller is a weak 5-on-5 player and good PP weapon, and he's getting fed a lot of PP minutes which feeds his raw points.

 

[18leafsfan18]

"better" is without context. Put Keller with Matthews and then you will have apples to apples comparison; throwing out the word "better" without context is not useful

Maybe I should have said more proven at time of signing.

2 60 point seasons vs 65 and 47 point season. 19 of those points for keller are on the PP.

Time will tell I suppose

 

[ZippityDooDa]

In your scenario the Leafs have Marner sit out and dont replace him in anyway.

The Leafs are nowhere close to "all in" this year. They have at the very least a 5 yr window as of today.

The Barrie trade included a player with virtually the same stats last year as Kadri on a lower cap hit for an additional year.

Look at that. You looked at the negative side of every single one of your points. Also none of the things you looked at realistically.

Your really hurt by that joke comment eh?

Lol right, I'm the one who stated you were being cheeky after you took my cheekiness to heart and got all defensive calling out all the fake "fans". You have a very condescending air in your posts so I'm just giving it back and clearly it's gotten to you which is quite amusing.

We'll see how things pan out, choppa

 

[Suntouchable13]

I can live with 10.5x6, front load the shit out of it. Done deal. Come on! Do it!

 

[saffronleaf]

Why should It? Call me heartless if you will but when I go into employment negotiations I'm fighting for the best deal possible for myself

I'm not going to hold it against Marner if he behaves the same

In the night, I hear 'em talk
The coldest story ever told
Somewhere far along this road, he lost his cap to an RFA so heartless
How could you be so heartless?
Oh, how could you be so heartless?

 

[PromisedLand]

Maybe I should have said more proven at time of signing.

2 60 point seasons vs 65 and 47 point season. 19 of those points for keller are on the PP.

Time will tell I suppose

I could counter that and say Keller scored those 65 points without a center like Matthews; now with Kessel on the roster I expect Keller to have around 60 point pace

 

[ZippityDooDa]

Metrics that isolate player impact from factors like linemates have Nylander as the far, far better player. Nylander grades out as a very good player there, while Keller is in the negatives. As for being very stingy defensively, that has very little to do with Keller whose defense has been heavily criticized. Also disagree with "no offensive quality" as his most common linemate was Stepan who is normally a 55-60 point player.

At this point in time, Keller is a weak 5-on-5 player and good PP weapon, and he's getting fed a lot of PP minutes which feeds his raw points.

Well there's our answer. At least we talked about it.

 

[18leafsfan18]

Lol right, I'm the one who stated you were being cheeky after you took my cheekiness to heart and got all defensive calling out all the fake "fans". You have a very condescending air in your posts so I'm just giving it back and clearly it's gotten to you which is quite amusing.

We'll see how things pan out, choppa

Never took anything to heart.

Negative fans are always negative even when good things happen to the team. I was just pointing out that many of them would have agreed with with never winning a cup statement. I thought I was still joking, but I guess somehow you know better than me.

Hasn't gotten to me really. I've learnt to accept the overly negative fanbase we have on here.

 

[18leafsfan18]

I could counter that and say Keller scored those 65 points without a center like Matthews; now with Kessel on the roster I expect Keller to have around 60 point pace

Do you even know he will play with Kessel ?

 

[Legion34]

I fully agree that Marner should be paid as a proven 26 goal/94 point player.

Given that a proven 40 goal/100 point player signed for 9.5x8 starting THIS season, 7 ufa years.... yeah....

You also have to keep in mind the dramatic tax advantages you showed.

So like I said. 7.15 for 47 pts
You think. 14.3 for 94 pts

 

[Kiwi]

It is when his ask is all out of whack with reality. That's not on Leafs management.

That's your opinion, they don't feel the same way and they have a point because he's been the Leafs top scorer for the last 2 years on a team with 2 guys making 11M or more

You mean the 2 contracts that came in right on their comparables?

Totally remember them.

Whatever helps you sleep at night

Obviously the team didn't think Nylander was in line with there comparables since he didn't sign until 30 minutes before the deadline and it's hilarious how you guys try to defend the Matthews contract when the most recent RFA franchise level centers to sign were McDavid and Eichel who's deals **** all over Matthews abortion of a deal

I can't wait until Marner signs this deal and you guys are on here trying to defend it, just like Matthews it's going to take some doing

It is his problem. Only him and his dad think he has Matthews upside. One guy being overpaid doesn't entitle the rest of the club to the same stupidity when the cap space isn't there. When there is no money there is no money. Being the last guy to sign has risks and here they are.

Matthews was at a 98 pt pace playing with rookie wingers when he signed. That was the criteria. That was his leverage. Could go north, could go south but thats where he was on contract day. Marner scored 94 pts playing with an all star. He wasn't being carried but those are still not remotely similar accomplishments and how Matthews season finished is irrelevant because he was payed based on what he had shown on the day they handed him the pen.

Dubas' clear terror at exposing AM to the offer sheet market doesn't somehow translate to Mitch, and the assumption that the money has to as well makes no sense. He is an excellent player but if he needs more than $10m I am absolutely fine with him earning it somewhere else. As a long term Leaf fan I watched Sittler and Sundin and Gilmour carry the club, and not once did I wish they would replace any of them with a 28g winger. I really hope they get MM in a bridge deal and he can prove his point. I believe he can do a lot more than he has shown so far, I just won't assume it will happen. Nick Backstrom below starting with his breakout season.

View attachment 252979

You see it's called a precedent

If you screw up one players deal and have shown about as much spine as a jellyfish, then have the team pushing hard for a deal all offseason what's your incentive to come off your ask now if your Marner?

I laugh when I see people arguing Marner is on Matthews level because it's not close imo but until this management team shows some actual ability to push back against the player and narrative that's being pushed by the media Marner doesn't have to do anything, he's winning

 

[18leafsfan18]

That's your opinion, they don't feel the same way and they have a point because he's been the Leafs top scorer for the last 2 years on a team with 2 guys making 11M or more



Whatever helps you sleep at night

Obviously the team didn't think Nylander was in line with there comparables since he didn't sign until 30 minutes before the deadline and it's hilarious how you guys try to defend the Matthews contract when the most recent RFA franchise level centers to sign were McDavid and Eichel who's deals **** all over Matthews abortion of a deal

I can't wait until Marner signs this deal and you guys are on here trying to defend it, just like Matthews it's going to take some doing



You see it's called a precedent

If you screw up one players deal and have shown about as much spine as a jellyfish, then have the team pushing hard for a deal all offseason what's your incentive to come off your ask now if your Marner?

I laugh when I see people arguing Marner is on Matthews level because it's not close imo but until this management team shows some actual ability to push back against the player and narrative that's being pushed by the media Marner doesn't have to do anything, he's winning

Let me guess based on term he is the "highest paid player in the league"

 

[PromisedLand]

Do you even know he will play with Kessel ?

even if he doesn't QoC will not be as high; teams will have to then plan for two lines.

Even if you ignore Kessel; look at MacKinnon. He took time to get it going but as soon as Rantanen got on that line Mack exploded. Now with Kadri as their 2C; assuming Kadri can find his 30G 50P game; I expect Mack to go super saiyan next season.

Nylander has always had Matthews next to him; you looking down on Keller without contextual analysis and looking at pure "rates" based statistic is incorrect.

Hell even take Marner as an example; Marner benefits not only playing with Tavares but also because of having Matthews in the line up as opposition has to spread out their defensive strategy (similarly Matthews also benefits).

Only thing with Marner though is that Marner was pacing around 80 to 90 points without JT in 2017-2018 season; sample is of 40 odd games not large enough to fully accept it but also not small enough to fully reject it.

Anyway, getting back to your question even of Kessel doesn't play with Keller there is going to be positive effects on Keller's stats because of having Kessel in the line up.

Kessel was almost a ppg player with the Leafs with absolutely CRAPPY forward depth

 

[mouser]

Do you even know he will play with Kessel ?

First line is likely Keller-Schmaltz-Kessel

Schmaltz gets some flack from Chicago, but he was outstanding with Arizona post-trade before being injured with 14 points in 17 games. ACL is a lot to come back from, but it will be nine months when the regular season starts.

I won’t be surprised if Keller puts up 70+ points this season.

Some risk by Chayka, but a good gamble to take locking up Keller now.

 

[ULF_55]

so Mike johnson puts marner behind point and rantanen.

have to agree, but aren't we lucky!

 

[Confucius]

That's your opinion, they don't feel the same way and they have a point because he's been the Leafs top scorer for the last 2 years on a team with 2 guys making 11M or more



Whatever helps you sleep at night

Obviously the team didn't think Nylander was in line with there comparables since he didn't sign until 30 minutes before the deadline and it's hilarious how you guys try to defend the Matthews contract when the most recent RFA franchise level centers to sign were McDavid and Eichel who's deals **** all over Matthews abortion of a deal

I can't wait until Marner signs this deal and you guys are on here trying to defend it, just like Matthews it's going to take some doing



You see it's called a precedent

If you screw up one players deal and have shown about as much spine as a jellyfish, then have the team pushing hard for a deal all offseason what's your incentive to come off your ask now if your Marner?

I laugh when I see people arguing Marner is on Matthews level because it's not close imo but until this management team shows some actual ability to push back against the player and narrative that's being pushed by the media Marner doesn't have to do anything, he's winning

If I'm Dubas Id say yep I screwed up on Mathews deal but I cant change that now. Do you expect me to have to overpay everybody from now on? Two wrongs wont make it right.

 

[ZippityDooDa]

Never took anything to heart.

Negative fans are always negative even when good things happen to the team. I was just pointing out that many of them would have agreed with with never winning a cup statement. I thought I was still joking, but I guess somehow you know better than me.

Hasn't gotten to me really. I've learnt to accept the overly negative fanbase we have on here.

We were both joking but you took my joke seriously and seemed to get cranky. Miscommunication is easy on text.

Enough beating all these dead horses, let the results speak for themselves. October needs to hurry the hell up!