Prospect Info: Marlies/Prospects Thread

[Morgs]

Though you look advanced stats and know him by reports from NA scouts. That writer has saw him play and discussed with his coaches, so who's bias is better? Rindell making WC last season was big thing, because like that writer said Jalonen doesn't give rope in defensive game, either you have it or your out. Olli Jokinen is new coach in Finland and seems bit messy at the moment, so I'm not surprised that some players have problems with his style. Kärpät is usually pretty structured team which helps also individuals.

Lets see, he is pretty interesting prospect and I wouldn't say for sure which one of our young Finnish dman will excel in future. All has a chance and it's also different game in NA, so who adapts. Lehtonen was great in Europe, but his game didn't suit NA.

Good thing we have both Kokkonen and Rindell + Niemelä.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love for Rindell to be a prospect. I'm cheering for every single one of our guys. All I can do though is watch games and track stats, and I went from thinking he was going to really be something early last season to almost in the Loponen/O'Connell tier of current guys that are only prospects due to still being affiliated by the team.

Let's hope Karpat brings him back to where he was in the first half of last year.

 

[SprDaVE]

Petruzzelli called up to Marlies.

Kallgren has a concussion. Scott is still MIA.

Goaltending depth is being tested.

 

[LeafChief]

Kallgren has a concussion. Scott is still MIA.

Goaltending depth is being tested.

Scott is expected to return to practice next week.

 

[Knies iT]

Has Kokkonen's game developed much at all over the past 3 seasons?

Don't get me wrong, he's a safe bet to be a 3rd pair option down the road, but after his hot start with the Pelicans he's almost back to his usual pace and hasn't recorded a point in nearly double digit games. Looks like the same player but in a better environment.

I'd have no problem if someone argued Rindell over him. Rindell has shown glimpses of high-end play that Kokkonen's never shown at all and it's not as if the latter's defensive game is trending like a Pelech. He's a vanilla defender that's effective in transition and can PK at an above average level, but there's not much else there.

 

[Mara]

Don't get me wrong. I'd love for Rindell to be a prospect. I'm cheering for every single one of our guys. All I can do though is watch games and track stats, and I went from thinking he was going to really be something early last season to almost in the Loponen/O'Connell tier of current guys that are only prospects due to still being affiliated by the team.

Let's hope Karpat brings him back to where he was in the first half of last year.

In his new team Rindell gets to play in a pair with one of the best, if not the best defender in the league (Atte Ohtamaa for those curious). That surely has an influence on his game, but his game has had a positive influence on the team as well. Before his arrival the defense of the team was in a bit of a crisis with the "best player on the team" defender having to play around 30 minutes per game. Since Rindell's arrival his play time has dropped significantly, a good sign for the team and probably for Rindell as well. With Topi Niemelä and Rindell the D has become an offensive powerhouse and on a side note Niemelä has improved his D zone play significantly, even if he does still manage to get into trouble every now and then.

 

[SprDaVE]

Has Kokkonen's game developed much at all over the past 3 seasons?

Don't get me wrong, he's a safe bet to be a 3rd pair option down the road, but after his hot start with the Pelicans he's almost back to his usual pace and hasn't recorded a point in nearly double digit games. Looks like the same player but in a better environment.

I'd have no problem if someone argued Rindell over him. Rindell has shown glimpses of high-end play that Kokkonen's never shown at all and it's not as if the latter's defensive game is trending like a Pelech. He's a vanilla defender that's effective in transition and can PK at an above average level, but there's not much else there.

I thought he looked great when he had his stint with the Marlies last season. He looked legit. I can't say I watched him this season though.

 

[Twine Tickler]

 

[Mara]

Has Kokkonen's game developed much at all over the past 3 seasons?

Don't get me wrong, he's a safe bet to be a 3rd pair option down the road, but after his hot start with the Pelicans he's almost back to his usual pace and hasn't recorded a point in nearly double digit games. Looks like the same player but in a better environment.

I'd have no problem if someone argued Rindell over him. Rindell has shown glimpses of high-end play that Kokkonen's never shown at all and it's not as if the latter's defensive game is trending like a Pelech. He's a vanilla defender that's effective in transition and can PK at an above average level, but there's not much else there.

I haven't seen much of Kokkonen, but from what I've seen I would be surprised if he ever makes it as a regular in the NHL. Kind of weird to see people expecting that of him, he's more of a "there's a chance, but it's unlikely" type of case. That said, Niemelä and Rindell aren't much higher on that list. Niemelä's production so far this season is absolutely phenomenal(he leads the league in points, a 19-year old D!) but at the same time, he's smallish, and not exceptional in the offense. He just has good instincts, knows when there's open ice and takes it. I think it will be difficult for him to transition his game to the small rink and the bigger, faster opponents he'll face especially in the NHL. Rindell, well, it's still early. I'll have more of an opinion of him later in the season.

 

[horner]

Petruzzelli called up to Marlies.

Hutch sucks Petruzzelli will get in a game this wknd

 

[Zookeeper]

I want nothing but the best for every player but can we end this hutchinson experience. I want off this ride.

 

[Twine Tickler]

I haven't seen much of Kokkonen, but from what I've seen I would be surprised if he ever makes it as a regular in the NHL. Kind of weird to see people expecting that of him, he's more of a "there's a chance, but it's unlikely" type of case. That said, Niemelä and Rindell aren't much higher on that list. Niemelä's production so far this season is absolutely phenomenal(he leads the league in points, a 19-year old D!) but at the same time, he's smallish, and not exceptional in the offense. He just has good instincts, knows when there's open ice and takes it. I think it will be difficult for him to transition his game to the small rink and the bigger, faster opponents he'll face especially in the NHL. Rindell, well, it's still early. I'll have more of an opinion of him later in the season.

Nice to know. It sounds like you watch them and Liiga Hockey in general far more regularly then some on here.

I always thought from the brief times I've seen Kokonnen play with Finland WJC and the Toronto Marlies that he played a very tidy, low event style. Something that usually tracks well for bottom pairing in the NHL. I won't pretend to know much of his game beyond that small sample size, but I'll admit I thought, and to a certain degree still do think he has a relatively high floor.

As for Topi and Axel, I know only what I see on the stat sheets and what I saw from Topi in the WJC. I recognize the concerns for the smaller sheet of ice in NA, but this kid looked like he had balls the size of church bells. Some of the plays he was making as an 18 year old in his first WJC last year were just so damn confident.

I hear the concerns, because I really did have high hopes on Mikko Lehtonon too when he came over, and how certain games just don't translate. But I really think there is room for Topi's game to continue to grow. Same for Axel. Both are still extremely young players.

Not to compare Axel and Topi to Heiskanen, because Miro was a show stopper prospect from the get go and was widely viewed as a sure thing, but I am sure there were some similar doubts on how transferable his game would be when he came to NA.

What Topi is doing right now is nothing short of remarkable IMO. Again, I will never put my word above someone who watches the Liiga religiously, but from my biased outside perspective this kid looks special.

 

[VanW27]

The thing for Kokonnen is the tools just aren't there.

The safe but unspectacular 3rd pair defenseman is a much more difficult position to crack than it seems. Typically teams want a big, tough, PK guy in that role, given Kokonnen's size (and style), that's not him. You might say guys like Dermott are playing that role these days, and my counter would be Dermott is a terrific skater, one of the best on the Leafs. His skating and competitiveness (not big but strong for his size and does what he can with his body) allows him to fill that role.

Kokonnen doesn't have the size to be a Bogosian or Holl and he doesn't have the skating of a guy like Dermott. I don't know if he can be "steady" enough to be an NHLer.

That said, because of the way he plays he's a guy who you could probably throw into a NHL game tomorrow and he wouldn't hurt you, it's just that teams will always want a guy who can give them a little something more from that role. Great guy to have around as a depth guy/AHL callup in case of injuries, I don't see much of a NHL future though.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Let's also not forget it's been four games

I hear you. It's definitely not worth freaking out over just yet.

The one takeaway I gather in all of this is that he is getting an opportunity in Karpat. You cannot put up 8pts in 4GP without being put on the ice in ideal situations (ie. PP, offensive zone face offs etc..). You can't fluke your way to that level of production in even 4GP.

The way I see it, this would be the equivalent to say Sandin producing 8Pts in 4GP with the Leafs. In his current role (PP2, bottom pairing) that would be very challenging to accomplish. Therefore it would likely mean for that level of production to occur for Rasmus, he likely would have found his way onto PP1 and/or was given a more elevated role.

Getting back to Axel, without watching a single second of his last 4 games, I imagine his role has expanded from what he had in Jukerit. Which can only be viewed as a positive IMO. Because lets face it, 2pts/game is not going to last

 

[Mara]

Nice to know. It sounds like you watch them and Liiga Hockey in general far more regularly then some on here.

I always thought from the brief times I've seen Kokonnen play with Finland WJC and the Toronto Marlies that he played a very tidy, low event style. Something that usually tracks well for bottom pairing in the NHL. I won't pretend to know much of his game beyond that small sample size, but I'll admit I thought, and to a certain degree still do think he has a relatively high floor.

As for Topi and Axel, I know only what I see on the stat sheets and what I saw from Topi in the WJC. I recognize the concerns for the smaller sheet of ice in NA, but this kid looked like he had balls the size of church bells. Some of the plays he was making as an 18 year old in his first WJC last year were just so damn confident.

I hear the concerns, because I really did have high hopes on Mikko Lehtonon too when he came over, and how certain games just don't translate. But I really think there is room for Topi's game to continue to grow. Same for Axel. Both are still extremely young players.

Not to compare Axel and Topi to Heiskanen, because Miro was a show stopper prospect from the get go and was widely viewed as a sure thing, but I am sure there were some similar doubts on how transferable his game would be when he came to NA.

What Topi is doing right now is nothing short of remarkable IMO. Again, I will never put my word above someone who watches the Liiga religiously, but from my biased outside perspective this kid looks special.

Don't get me wrong, Niemelä is exceptional. By Liiga standards he is starting to look super-exceptional. That is something to be excited about. At the same time, there's nothing really super-exceptional about his play, nothing obvious that stands out. He's not a great skater, he doesn't have an exceptional shot. His vision is good, yet I'm almost scared to say he has a high hockey IQ. Even that somehow gets muddled. I hope I'm getting my point across with this vagueness, and the reason why I'm a bit worried about his game over there in the big leagues. It's a bit worrying that in many ways Rindell suddenly looks like a slightly upgraded version of Niemelä right now, but it's a tiny sample size and like I wrote earlier, Rindell gets to play with an exceptional defensive pair. Your point about growth is on point though. Niemelä especially is so incredibly young that just one season is enough to see huge changes. We're already seeing improvements in his defensive game, and that's happened in a matter of weeks (many sessions with video coaches, I'm sure). His confidence right now must be through the roof.

The U20 tourney will be very interesting indeed. If he continues to perform there, the sky's the limit I suppose.

 

[Morgs]

Has Kokkonen's game developed much at all over the past 3 seasons?

Don't get me wrong, he's a safe bet to be a 3rd pair option down the road, but after his hot start with the Pelicans he's almost back to his usual pace and hasn't recorded a point in nearly double digit games. Looks like the same player but in a better environment.

I'd have no problem if someone argued Rindell over him. Rindell has shown glimpses of high-end play that Kokkonen's never shown at all and it's not as if the latter's defensive game is trending like a Pelech. He's a vanilla defender that's effective in transition and can PK at an above average level, but there's not much else there.

Kokkonen's game is back to where it was prior to last season at this point. He's getting tough zone starts and struggling pretty big in them. The new team he's on seems to be actually significantly worse in shot attempts than Jukurit last year, but they're winning much more, and have better shooting talent/goalies. Stats show the record should probably be much worse, tbh.

Jukurit 2020-21 (13-34-10)
GF% - 37.6%
CF% - 46.2%
SH% - 8.2%
SV% - .885%

Pelicans 2021-22 (10-8-3)
GF% - 48.6%
CF% - 41.6%
SH% - 10.6%
SV% - .897%

 

[Maplebeasts]

Don't get me wrong, Niemelä is exceptional. By Liiga standards he is starting to look super-exceptional. That is something to be excited about. At the same time, there's nothing really super-exceptional about his play, nothing obvious that stands out. He's not a great skater, he doesn't have an exceptional shot. His vision is good, yet I'm almost scared to say he has a high hockey IQ. Even that somehow gets muddled. I hope I'm getting my point across with this vagueness, and the reason why I'm a bit worried about his game over there in the big leagues. It's a bit worrying that in many ways Rindell suddenly looks like a slightly upgraded version of Niemelä right now, but it's a tiny sample size and like I wrote earlier, Rindell gets to play with an exceptional defensive pair. Your point about growth is on point though. Niemelä especially is so incredibly young that just one season is enough to see huge changes. We're already seeing improvements in his defensive game, and that's happened in a matter of weeks (many sessions with video coaches, I'm sure). His confidence right now must be through the roof.

The U20 tourney will be very interesting indeed. If he continues to perform there, the sky's the limit I suppose.

I don't really know why you doubt his hockey IQ. Niemela has always been sound positionally, had good shot selection and strong in transition (particularly defensively). I don't really see how you can be as effective as he is with his physical tools without having elite, elite hockey IQ. You don't need a bullet shot to be a good shooting option from the back end. You just need to make good decisions and get the puck through, both of which Niemela seems to have a knack for.

 

[Morgs]

I hear you. It's definitely not worth freaking out over just yet.

The one takeaway I gather in all of this is that he is getting an opportunity in Karpat. You cannot put up 8pts in 4GP without being put on the ice in ideal situations (ie. PP, offensive zone face offs etc..). You can't fluke your way to that level of production in even 4GP.

The way I see it, this would be the equivalent to say Sandin producing 8Pts in 4GP with the Leafs. In his current role (PP2, bottom pairing) that would be very challenging to accomplish. Therefore it would likely mean for that level of production to occur for Rasmus, he likely would have found his way onto PP1 and/or was given a more elevated role.

Getting back to Axel, without watching a single second of his last 4 games, I imagine his role has expanded from what he had in Jukerit. Which can only be viewed as a positive IMO. Because lets face it, 2pts/game is not going to last

The ice-time overall is relatively similar on both teams, but in Karpat so far they've put him into tougher situations (still barely any PK). Even the PP minutes are relatively similar which leads me to believe he's taken over the 1PP role in Karpat (but I believe they use two defenseman on each unit based on the defenseman PP time).

The way I see Rindell at the moment is a purely offensive defenseman, who coaches in a 2nd tier league don't trust defensively at all. When I was making those statements earlier this year the offense dried up significantly (both in shot attempts on the ice and production), so when you have a defenseman who can't do anything offensively, and can't be trusted defensively almost at all you don't have a NHL prospect. Especially when you don't know if the offense is actually good enough to translate even on their best day. It's the same thing I said in the Niemela thread, but I've watched plenty of his games and tracked his stats for three years now: the offense is nice, and it may even translate to the NHL level, but I'm more concerned about it than I am about him being a strong transition and defensive player at the NHL level. Rindell at this point is an offensive bottom-pairing guy who will probably never play on a NHL PP or he's an AHL player

Glad to see the production coming back, and the numbers have improved, but it's been four games. I'd LOVE to see him keep it up and put me in my place though.

 

[deprw]

Well I think it's same with all the prospects from top to bottom. You have evolve year to year, but if you're really good really early there is better chance. I think it's big sign with Niemelä that he adapts fast to new environment (WJC or Liiga) in some way I think that is sign that he has good hockey iq, since he isn't excelling on skating like Heiskanen was. For 3rd rounder he has exceed all expectations at this point.

Rindell is sort of a late bloomer and different case. Hopefully we'll se both at training camp next year and get better idea how they adapt to NA rink. I hope Rindell has long spring ahead here in Europe from Liiga playoffs to WHC. It should be his goal now as he is playing in top team in Liiga.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love for Rindell to be a prospect. I'm cheering for every single one of our guys. All I can do though is watch games and track stats, and I went from thinking he was going to really be something early last season to almost in the Loponen/O'Connell tier of current guys that are only prospects due to still being affiliated by the team.

Let's hope Karpat brings him back to where he was in the first half of last year.

I actually commented more on to that attitude towards European write. Who see him play, it's always interesting take to hear and I think we should respect it more. I always appreciate comments from NA fans that can see our prospects play. It's always "fan take", but nonetheless interesting information, since it's hard to really track NA prospects and I think it's same thing with European prospects. Then we "calculate" based on advanced stats and compare players to other prospects from earlier years.

 

[Knies iT]

Niemelä's production so far this season is absolutely phenomenal(he leads the league in points, a 19-year old D!) but at the same time, he's smallish, and not exceptional in the offense. He just has good instincts, knows when there's open ice and takes it. I think it will be difficult for him to transition his game to the small rink and the bigger, faster opponents he'll face especially in the NHL. Rindell, well, it's still early. I'll have more of an opinion of him later in the season.

I get your point that he lacks elite tools, but i'd argue his toolbox is elite and that's what matters most. Lilley, Leafs director of scouting at the time, said post-draft that the org. views his defensive instincts were some of the best in the entire class.

What your description tells me is that he's a physically underdeveloped teenager that lacks a dominant trait (e.g. bomb of a shot, breakaway speed, etc.), yet he's still boasting historic production. In scouting, that suggests huge growth potential. If he's capable of dominating without being anywhere near his peak physical maturity and drives positive results via smarts, the sky is the limit.

That same scouting critique also applied to draft year versions of McAvoy, Drysdale, etc. but obviously to a lesser degree as they were more advanced prospects. He stylistically plays somewhat similar to Drysdale IMO.

 

[SprDaVE]

 

[DragoGrizzly]

Knies with a great goal to tie the game for Minn. The announcer with the comment “Knies went second round? You kidding me!”

 

[stickty111]

Make it 2 assists

 

[thinkblue]

He just got an assist as well.

Another assist on the PP. 3pt night so far.

 

[stickty111]

Another assist on the PP. 3pt night so far.

Nice power move on his 2nd assist

 

[67Cup]

Voit scored. Kressler goal and assist