Prospect Info: Marlies/Prospects Thread

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And that is what I am saying.

He's really not "too good" for the MHL. He hasn't dominated it. That being said, you don't need to dominate every league you play in before you move up. He probably should be in the VHL right now, but is playing in one of the few organizations that doesn't really use that league it seems.

In general, I have no idea how people have him as our 13th best prospect in our organization. He is in the Schingoethe range of prospects right now based on what he has shown, and Schingoethe barely cracked our top 30.

His talent, production, and international pedigree heavily (heavily) outweigh Schingoethe. Not to mention he's .1 years younger than him too and MHL > USHL. I know you're lower on him than virtually anyone on this site, but he's without a doubt in a higher tier than Schingoethe, who I actually like too.

I dont think he's our 13th best prospect (I have him somewhere between low in the 3rd tier/early 4th tier), but I think you're almost at the point with him (with all due respect as you know I respect your opinion) where you're pulling a Keith Law that no matter the information given or what the player does, he's nothing.
 
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And that is what I am saying.

He's really not "too good" for the MHL. He hasn't dominated it. That being said, you don't need to dominate every league you play in before you move up. He probably should be in the VHL right now, but is playing in one of the few organizations that doesn't really use that league it seems.

In general, I have no idea how people have him as our 13th best prospect in our organization. He is in the Schingoethe range of prospects right now based on what he has shown, and Schingoethe barely cracked our top 30.
Schingoethe? Surely you jest.
 
Here's my personal list:

As usual, U24, must have played less than 50 NHL GP, and have NHL rights owned by the Leafs.
Rank (tier)PlayerPositionAgeHighest LevelAcquired
1 (1)Timothy Liljegren RHD22.4NHL1st Round Pick 2017
2 (1)Rasmus SandinLHD21.6NHL1st Round Pick 2018
3 (1)Nick RobertsonW20.1NHL2nd Round Pick 2019
4 (1)Rodion AmirovW20.0KHL1st Round Pick 2020
5 (2)Topi NiemelaRHD19.5Liiga3rd Round Pick 2020
6 (2)Matthew KniesC/W19.0USHL2nd Round Pick 2021
7 (2)Roni Hirvonen C/W19.7Liiga2nd Round Pick 2020
8 (2)Mikko KokkonenLHD20.7AHL3rd Round Pick 2019
9 (2)Mikhail AbramovC/W20.5QMJHL4th Round Pick 2019
10 (2)Veeti MiettinenW20.1NCAA6th Round Pick 2020
11 (3)Nick AbruzzeseW22.4NCAA4th Round Pick 2019
12 (3)Filip KralLHD22.0AHL5th Round Pick 2018
13 (3)Pontus Holmberg W22.6SHL6th Round Pick 2018
14 (3)Semyon Der-ArguchintsevC21.1KHL3rd Round Pick 2018
15 (3)Pavel GogolevW21.6AHLUDFA
16 (3)Mike KosterLHD20.5NCAA5th Round Pick 2019
17 (3)Alex SteevesNCAA21.8NCAAUDFA
18 (3)Dmitri OvchinnikovC/W19.1KHL5th Round Pick 2020
19 (3)Ahktyamov, ArturG19.9KHL4th Round Pick 2020
20 (4)Ryan TverbergC19.7NCAA7th Round Pick 2020
21 (4)Mac HollowellRHD23.0AHL4th Round Pick 2018
22 (4)Ty VoitC/W18.3OHL5th Round Pick 2021
23 (4)Braeden KresslerC18.8OHLUDFA
24 (4)Axel Rindell RHD21.5Liiga6th Round Pick 2020
25 (4)Scott, IanG22.7AHL4th Round Pick 2017
26 (4)Woll, JosephG23.2AHL3rd Round Pick 2017
27 (4)William VilleneuveRHD19.6AHL4th Round Pick 2020
28 (5)Semyon KizimovW21.7KHL7th Round Pick 2018
29 (5)Wyatt SchingoetheC19.2USHL7th Round Pick 2020
30 (5)Joe MillerC/W19.1USHL6th Round Pick 2020
31 (5)John FuscoRHD20.3USHL7th Round Pick 2020
32 (5)Kristans RubinsLHD23.8AHLUDFA
33 (6)Kalle LoponenRHD20.6Liiga7th Round Pick 2019
34 (6)Peksa, VyacheslavG19.1MHL6th Round Pick 2021
35 (6)Ryan O'ConnellLHD22.5NCAA7th Round Pick 2017
36 (6)Vladislav KaraW23.5KHL4th Round Pick 2017
[TBODY] [/TBODY]


Tier 1: Impact NHL potential, could be a star, will be a NHL player.
Tier 2: Chance at top-6/top-4, likely NHL player in some capacity.
Tier 3: Bottom-6/bottom-pair likely ceiling, strong 100GP potential.
Tier 4: Very interesting players, need to show more.
Tier 5: Less interesting, need to show a lot more.
Tier 6: Probably not an NHL level prospect.
 
Here's my personal list:

As usual, U24, must have played less than 50 NHL GP, and have NHL rights owned by the Leafs.
Rank (tier)PlayerPositionAgeHighest LevelAcquired
1 (1)Timothy Liljegren RHD22.4NHL1st Round Pick 2017
2 (1)Rasmus SandinLHD21.6NHL1st Round Pick 2018
3 (1)Nick RobertsonW20.1NHL2nd Round Pick 2019
4 (1)Rodion AmirovW20.0KHL1st Round Pick 2020
5 (2)Topi NiemelaRHD19.5Liiga3rd Round Pick 2020
6 (2)Matthew KniesC/W19.0USHL2nd Round Pick 2021
7 (2)Roni Hirvonen C/W19.7Liiga2nd Round Pick 2020
8 (2)Mikko KokkonenLHD20.7AHL3rd Round Pick 2019
9 (2)Mikhail AbramovC/W20.5QMJHL4th Round Pick 2019
10 (2)Veeti MiettinenW20.1NCAA6th Round Pick 2020
11 (3)Nick AbruzzeseW22.4NCAA4th Round Pick 2019
12 (3)Filip KralLHD22.0AHL5th Round Pick 2018
13 (3)Pontus Holmberg W22.6SHL6th Round Pick 2018
14 (3)Semyon Der-ArguchintsevC21.1KHL3rd Round Pick 2018
15 (3)Pavel GogolevW21.6AHLUDFA
16 (3)Mike KosterLHD20.5NCAA5th Round Pick 2019
17 (3)Alex SteevesNCAA21.8NCAAUDFA
18 (3)Dmitri OvchinnikovC/W19.1KHL5th Round Pick 2020
19 (3)Ahktyamov, ArturG19.9KHL4th Round Pick 2020
20 (4)Ryan TverbergC19.7NCAA7th Round Pick 2020
21 (4)Mac HollowellRHD23.0AHL4th Round Pick 2018
22 (4)Ty VoitC/W18.3OHL5th Round Pick 2021
23 (4)Braeden KresslerC18.8OHLUDFA
24 (4)Axel Rindell RHD21.5Liiga6th Round Pick 2020
25 (4)Scott, IanG22.7AHL4th Round Pick 2017
26 (4)Woll, JosephG23.2AHL3rd Round Pick 2017
27 (4)William VilleneuveRHD19.6AHL4th Round Pick 2020
28 (5)Semyon KizimovW21.7KHL7th Round Pick 2018
29 (5)Wyatt SchingoetheC19.2USHL7th Round Pick 2020
30 (5)Joe MillerC/W19.1USHL6th Round Pick 2020
31 (5)John FuscoRHD20.3USHL7th Round Pick 2020
32 (5)Kristans RubinsLHD23.8AHLUDFA
33 (6)Kalle LoponenRHD20.6Liiga7th Round Pick 2019
34 (6)Peksa, VyacheslavG19.1MHL6th Round Pick 2021
35 (6)Ryan O'ConnellLHD22.5NCAA7th Round Pick 2017
36 (6)Vladislav KaraW23.5KHL4th Round Pick 2017
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Tier 1: Impact NHL potential, could be a star, will be a NHL player.
Tier 2: Chance at top-6/top-4, likely NHL player in some capacity.
Tier 3: Bottom-6/bottom-pair likely ceiling, strong 100GP potential.
Tier 4: Very interesting players, need to show more.
Tier 5: Less interesting, need to show a lot more.
Tier 6: Probably not an NHL level prospect.

Now add a column telling us how many years until they make an NHL roster. :D
 
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Amirov has been in and out of the lineup since returning from his injury. Does anyone have any info on why he’s been sitting? Hopefully just conditioning. I’m really not a fan of the way UFA has been using him.
 
Engvall - Brooks - Simmonds - NHL?
---
Robertson - Amadio - Ho-Sang
Steeves - Semyonov - Anderson
Gogolev - Abramov - SDA
Seney - Douglas - Gabriel
McKenna - Michaelis - Kopacka
Clune - Suomela - Chyzowski

Sandin - Liljegren - NHL?
---
Dahlstrom - Menell
Kral - Biega
Rubins - Hollowell
Kivihalme - Duzcak
Hellickson - Hoffenmayer
McCourt - Kapcheck

Hutchinson - NHL?
---
Kallgren
Woll
Petruzelli
Scott

yeah, Marlies may be good
 
Engvall - Brooks - Simmonds - NHL?
---
Robertson - Amadio - Ho-Sang
Steeves - Semyonov - Anderson
Gogolev - Abramov - SDA
Seney - Douglas - Gabriel
McKenna - Michaelis - Kopacka
Clune - Suomela - Chyzowski

Sandin - Liljegren - NHL?
---
Dahlstrom - Menell
Kral - Biega
Rubins - Hollowell
Kivihalme - Duzcak
Hellickson - Hoffenmayer
McCourt - Kapcheck

Hutchinson - NHL?
---
Kallgren
Woll
Petruzelli
Scott

yeah, Marlies may be good

That is a contending team on paper.

If Moore can't make that team win games, he's not going to last very long... at least I hope.
 
What will the goalies look like?

Kalgren
Woll AHL

Petro echl?

Hutch is there as well. If he clears, and depending on Woll's health, we may end up trading a goalie at some point. Not sure they want two prospects having to be in a 3 goalie rotation in the AHL.
 
Hutch is there as well. If he clears, and depending on Woll's health, we may end up trading a goalie at some point. Not sure they want two prospects having to be in a 3 goalie rotation in the AHL.

he got claimed by florida didn’t he?

edit I can’t find hutch claim anywhere so I might be wrong
 
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His talent, production, and international pedigree heavily (heavily) outweigh Schingoethe. Not to mention he's .1 years younger than him too and MHL > USHL. I know you're lower on him than virtually anyone on this site, but he's without a doubt in a higher tier than Schingoethe, who I actually like too.

I dont think he's our 13th best prospect (I have him somewhere between low in the 3rd tier/early 4th tier), but I think you're almost at the point with him (with all due respect as you know I respect your opinion) where you're pulling a Keith Law that no matter the information given or what the player does, he's nothing.

Schingoethe is 16 days older than Ovchinnikov. They are practically the same age.

Ovchinnikov barely has an international pedigree. Some U17 games and 2 U18 games is hardly an international pedigree for a European, given the amount of international games they play. 31 different Russians played more U18 games than Ovchinnikov that year, and 12 other guys played 2 games as he did. Schingoethe likely would have been on the U18 squad himself had there been an opportunity for him to play in those tournaments, and may have a better chance at a U20 squad for the USA than Ovchinnikov has for Russia (given Schingoethe can play a defensive specialist role, while Russia has a ton of better pure offensive talent than Ovchinnikov at their disposal).

Ovchinnikov has more offensive talent, but Schingoethe is significantly better defensively and can play center. Ovchinnikov will be able to play higher in the lineup if he makes the NHL, but in terms of overall importance and making the NHL, Schingoethe has the clear edge.

Not really sure the MHL is better than the USHL, but even then, Schingoethe is now in the NCAA while Ovchinnikov is still stuck in the MHL. NCAA >> MHL.

Putting Ovchinnikov in the Schingoethe range does not mean he is nothing, but all I am saying is there has been little evidence that guys like Ovchinnikov turn into anything. I've read the scouting reports, I have watched the highlight clips of him, and I have watched a handful of games. His production is nothing special, especially for the Eastern Conference of the MHL. He should become a good KHL player some day, but I can't say that I have not see a dozen other Russians just like him over the past few years, most of which have gone undrafted and have not really made NHL teams regret it. We are effectively hoping he can turn into another Gusev, who has a very similar profile and career path, but Gusev has looked a lot better at 20 than Ovchinnikov, and he was a D+2 7th round pick who is currently fighting for his NHL life at 29. I am not going to write off a 20 year old guy, and I guess it is better he puts up PPG+ production in the MHL than not, but he needs to bring a lot more to the table to turn into a legit prospect, and is closer to turning into another Kara, Kizimov, etc. Schingoethe is a long shot too, and his lack of production is concerning of course, but as a defensive specialist to begin with, and where he is at in his career, there have been a lot more guys like him who have become productive NHLers than guys like Ovchinnikov.

I guess I am just tempering the expectations a little bit with our Russian prospects, because I have done the research and it does not look favourable for any of them except Amirov. We are effectively hoping these guys become exceptions or outliers, like Mikheyev, than the bulk of Russians who have eventually become NHLers.
 
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and MHL > USHL.

FYI for those down on Ovchinnikov, the MHL is not really the kind of league where you see the numbers put up you get in the CHL. 1.2 PPG for a d+1 is very good.
.

Gonna have to disagree here. There might be a couple CHL quality teams in the West of the MHL, but overall the level of play looks more like tier 2 A in Canada, and likely not the top end like BCHL.

As to the numbers, that's because those players don't stay in the league for more than a handful of games. Fundamentally different graduation structure. There are guys that put up video game stats but get knocked out by games played filters, and the true scoring leaderboard tends to be a bunch of nobodies.

I'm not going to argue that Schingoethe is a better prospect, but I have trouble seeing Ovchinnikov as any better than that Miller/Toninato/Tverberg/O'Connell/Cameranesi etc of guys that have only played low level hockey pre draft, play it post draft, and need to show the ability to translate to a higher level to be counted seriously
 
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Dmitri Ovchinnikov actually looks like a good player, passes the eye test but he's in an awful situation. Hard to really project where he'll end up.

I've never seen Schingoethe play but his stats last year were awful in the USHL, that's a bad sign. Hopefully he shows up this year.
 
Ovchinnikov just seems like a legit prospect, at least he's sitting in the KHL and he's pretty much a star MHL player. Schingoethe can't even play serious minutes on a very inferior Junior team. We can try to compare the quality of the MHL versus the USHL/NCAA/CHL/JRA/BCHL/etc, but I'd say it's a respectable minor league that isn't super easy to produce in as a 16/17 year old player.

We'll see how it turns out but Schingoethe doesn't seem like a legit prospect to me and that's ok.
 
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Ovchinnikov just seems like a legit prospect, at least he's sitting in the KHL and he's pretty much a star MHL player. Schingoethe can't even play serious minutes on a very inferior Junior team. We can try to compare the quality of the MHL versus the USHL/NCAA/CHL/JRA/BCHL/etc, but I'd say it's a respectable minor league that isn't super easy to produce in as a 16/17 year old player.

We'll see how it turns out but Schingoethe doesn't seem like a legit prospect to me and that's ok.

Neither of them are legit prospects, which is why they are in the same range. Obviously they are very different types of prospects, with Schingoethe projecting as a bottom 6 defensive specialist (i.e. Kuraly, Wagner, Acciari, etc.) while Ovchinnikov is more of a playmaking top 9 offensive specialist (i.e. Gusev), but my overall point was that Ovchinnikov is getting a lot of hype when really, he should be in the same range as Schingoethe. Whether you have one over the other is more based on preference (I personally have Schingoethe 25th while Ovchinnikov is 26th).
 
Interesting. I actually might for the next time I post them.

While we are at it... we can turn into a Hockey Pool. Predict how long before each player plays X games in the NHL. If you guess a player will never make the NHL but he starts playing games... you lose points.

It may takes years to win though.
10 years from now someone will post the he won because player X has finally made the NHL. :laugh:
 
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