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Player Discussion: Mark S Discussion

ps241 said:
What I have loved about Connor is he is one of the few Jets star forwards from the recent past who is not a prima donna. By all accounts he is chill and ultra low maintenance. I love Watching him with the puck inside the attack zone, on a break away (good lord can he dazzle), making himself available for passes so he can strike like a vipor from anywhere, creating, those slick hands (some of the best in the NHL). The list goes on with him as a scorer and every team needs one of these types.

What is painful to watch is him either trying to defend or trying to exit his own zone. He and Laine drove me crazy. At least one bad habit Kyle didn’t have was those Laine “junior dangles” that worked amazingly twice a season but resulted in needless turnovers the rest of the time.

I remember watching Kyle dominate at Michigan driving one of the best line’s in the NCAA and I was thrilled he was our draft pick but I posted back then how I had never seen a forward less interested in defending. He had that 300 pound offensive lineman looking lost and uninterested after an Interception, not even trying to make a play on a fast DB that had picked the ball vibe.

Funny how the average fan looks at me with a blank stare when I mention that I love Connor’s goal scoring BUT he is a black hole defensively. Weird how Schiefele gets the hate by the fans for his total lack of engagement in the D zone but Connor gets a pass? With Mark Its just so painful to watch his body language, and once he got the rep fans started to watch for it, but Kyle is probably more useless and somehow hides in plain sight better from his faithful.

To be clear these two aren’t alone, in fact it is way more common for top 20 scorers to mail it in without the puck. Ovi was an embarrassment until Trotz showed up and sold him that to win a Cup he was going to have to come back past the red line. Does anyone remember Patrick Kane ever making a defensive play in his career because I don’t.

The coach and organization should keep these two apart but under Maurice Schiefele tended to get what he wanted. Bones has a backbone so we shall see how it plays out.

There was never anyone as good as a prime Wheeler driving the Scheifele line and really meshing with Mark but Perfetti really clicks with Mark. I hope to see more of that this season if Cole isn’t playing centre on his own line.
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I doubt much changes as far as Scheifele's lazy defensive play goes. Bones called him out(indirectly but it was obvious who he was talking about) at least twice last season and nothing changed. I cant count how many lazy Scheifele back-check stick tap plays ended up in the back of our net. If it hasnt clicked by now it means he just doesnt give a shit and he needs to be moved. Easier said then done when no one is interested i guess, but if i were Chevy i'd be trying everything i could to trade him to a team in win now mode for a young promising center.
 
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jokesondee said:
I doubt much changes as far as Scheifele's lazy defensive play goes. Bones called him out(indirectly but it was obvious who he was talking about) at least twice last season and nothing changed. I cant count how many lazy Scheifele back-check stick tap plays ended up in the back of our net. If it hasnt clicked by now it means he just doesnt give a shit and he needs to be moved. Easier said then done when no one is interested i guess, but if i were Chevy i'd be trying everything i could to trade him to a team in win now mode for a young promising center.
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Teams in win now mode aren't really too interested in trading young promising centres.
 
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jokesondee said:
They are if they feel Scheifele can help them win a cup now as opposed to a young center that might contribute what Scheifele can now in 3+ years when their core has been dismantled due to age/cap.
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Those are just prospects then, not young promising centres. Also, if they're a roster player and a young promising centre right now on their 2nd or 3rd line, contenders aren't looking to move those guys. Your list of teams that have that to pay is probably something like 2.
 
Mortimer Snerd said:
No - but better than what Boston has.
I don't think Boston has accepted a rebuild yet.

The trouble with a Scheifele > Boston trade is that it ideally links to also trading Helle. Scheif for a goalie and Helle for a C. Other pieces can be added by either sides to make caps work, balance values, etc. But trying to coordinate that would be tough.
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There's no point in Boston starting a rebuild right now because they have one prospect and no draft picks. They should punt it down the line a couple years and re-evaluate.
 
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Gil Fisher said:
There's no point in Boston starting a rebuild right now because they have one prospect and no draft picks. They should punt it down the line a couple years and re-evaluate.
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They also just re-signed Pastrnak to a very good contract. They aren't packing it in just yet.
 
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Gil Fisher said:
There's no point in Boston starting a rebuild right now because they have one prospect and no draft picks. They should punt it down the line a couple years and re-evaluate.
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Can't argue with that - except that they don't have the horses to compete contend right now, despite their great regular season last year. They are rapidly aging out. Bergeron and Krejci are gone, Marchand is 35. They still have very good goaltending and D. I don't think that is enough though.
 
ps241 said:
Funny how the average fan looks at me with a blank stare when I mention that I love Connor’s goal scoring BUT he is a black hole defensively. Weird how Schiefele gets the hate by the fans for his total lack of engagement in the D zone but Connor gets a pass? With Mark Its just so painful to watch his body language, and once he got the rep fans started to watch for it, but Kyle is probably more useless and somehow hides in plain sight better from his faithful.
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I think the reason it resonates more with Scheifele is that he is supposed to be playing center so the expectation in the D zone is that he (or more reasonably the individual playing center) is expected to be down low helping the D get the puck out. With Connor there's no expectation of that because he's the winger and supposed to be up high. He's supposed to be actively defending but for most floating somewhere in the slot/up high looks the same.

I really remember the gripes about Little when he was playing with Laine - "Little should be down low in the O-zone digging out the puck for Laine". Well, no, actually. The general expectation I was taught is that the wingers are the diggers in the O-zone. So when Little was doing his job defensively, going deep in his own zone to help the D out it was great. But the expectation was literally for him to dig out the puck and then skate 200 feet and dig it out again for Laine. There's a logic gap there. The biggest overall knock I recall about Little is that "he didn't score like a 1st line center". Wasn't really true. He didn't score like a Scheifele or other 40 goal center, but that was because he was being defensively responsible.

Connor shouldn't get the pass he does for not playing D but I'll always look more to the C to be down low than a winger. If we had a center that was more like Little, Scheifele's flaws would be much more easily overlooked. I think that was much of the beauty of that playoff run - Scheifele had blossomed into an offensive power, Little was still around to take the hard matchups. Then we added Stats, pushing Little and Lowry down to 3/4? Insane center depth. Couple that with potent wingers, very solid D and Helle? That was beautiful to behold.
 
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Gil Fisher said:
There's no point in Boston starting a rebuild right now because they have one prospect and no draft picks. They should punt it down the line a couple years and re-evaluate.
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It seems to me Lindholm might be a better fit for Boston "if" he is available. Elias is two years younger than Scheifele which is huge, he is not quite as elite offensively, but he is a two way player that can still produce. I think it would come down to trade value and also next contracts.
 
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tbcwpg said:
They also just re-signed Pastrnak to a very good contract. They aren't packing it in just yet.
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If they wanted to jumpstart the rebuild, they could trade Pasta for a haul of futures. Probably an unpopular option in Beantown though
 
Buffdog said:
If they wanted to jumpstart the rebuild, they could trade Pasta for a haul of futures. Probably an unpopular option in Beantown though
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That would be unpopular amongst the players league wide as well, unless Pastrnak requests it.
 
jokesondee said:
They are if they feel Scheifele can help them win a cup now as opposed to a young center that might contribute what Scheifele can now in 3+ years when their core has been dismantled due to age/cap.
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Perhaps but what makes you think we're any different? Does his team not want to compete now? All their moves (or lack of them), along with messaging, has been to compete now.
tbcwpg said:
They also just re-signed Pastrnak to a very good contract. They aren't packing it in just yet.
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Yeah I don't see Boston embarking a rebuild. Even then I reckon they will bounce back fast given they can trade and sign players easier.
 
buggs said:
I think the reason it resonates more with Scheifele is that he is supposed to be playing center so the expectation in the D zone is that he (or more reasonably the individual playing center) is expected to be down low helping the D get the puck out. With Connor there's no expectation of that because he's the winger and supposed to be up high. He's supposed to be actively defending but for most floating somewhere in the slot/up high looks the same.

I really remember the gripes about Little when he was playing with Laine - "Little should be down low in the O-zone digging out the puck for Laine". Well, no, actually. The general expectation I was taught is that the wingers are the diggers in the O-zone. So when Little was doing his job defensively, going deep in his own zone to help the D out it was great. But the expectation was literally for him to dig out the puck and then skate 200 feet and dig it out again for Laine. There's a logic gap there. The biggest overall knock I recall about Little is that "he didn't score like a 1st line center". Wasn't really true. He didn't score like a Scheifele or other 40 goal center, but that was because he was being defensively responsible.

Connor shouldn't get the pass he does for not playing D but I'll always look more to the C to be down low than a winger. If we had a center that was more like Little, Scheifele's flaws would be much more easily overlooked. I think that was much of the beauty of that playoff run - Scheifele had blossomed into an offensive power, Little was still around to take the hard matchups. Then we added Stats, pushing Little and Lowry down to 3/4? Insane center depth. Couple that with potent wingers, very solid D and Helle? That was beautiful to behold.
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It was beautiful - in fact if you go back and watch some of that, Little was even playing some shifts on the right wing with Lowry at times...beastly group.

Man, I missed Bryan Little. So under appreciated in Winnipeg. There was a bandwagon that Little was brutal for Laine - made me scratch my head. Watch the game Laine scores 5 goals (or even just check the highlights) and tell me Little was a problem for that team. :naughty:
 
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DRW204 said:
Perhaps but what makes you think we're any different? Does his team not want to compete now? All their moves (or lack of them), along with messaging, has been to compete now.

Yeah I don't see Boston embarking a rebuild. Even then I reckon they will bounce back fast given they can trade and sign players easier.
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Ofcourse, but when youve got a guy who wont listen to the coach and whos goals against rivals/exceeds his goals for due to lazy play its time for a change. May even be an addition by subtraction situation at this point. He was -16 last season. For a 42 goal scorer that is abysmal and shameful. I just hope Chevy can find a trade partner and get a decent center in return. Tall order to be sure but its time for this core to get a complete reset. No room for me players that wont listen to the coach.
 
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ps241 said:
It seems to me Lindholm might be a better fit for Boston "if" he is available. Elias is two years younger than Scheifele which is huge, he is not quite as elite offensively, but he is a two way player that can still produce. I think it would come down to trade value and also next contracts.
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Shhhh! Don't tell Bruins that. :laugh:
 
DRW204 said:
Perhaps but what makes you think we're any different? Does his team not want to compete now? All their moves (or lack of them), along with messaging, has been to compete now.

Yeah I don't see Boston embarking a rebuild. Even then I reckon they will bounce back fast given they can trade and sign players easier.
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Of course Jets also want to win now - but they also need to face facts were Scheif and Helle are concerned. Just like Boston needs to face facts about the loss of both top 6C's and the aging of one their top two wingers.
 
jokesondee said:
Ofcourse, but when youve got a guy who wont listen to the coach and whos goals against rivals/exceeds his goals for due to lazy play its time for a change. May even be an addition by subtraction situation at this point. He was -16 last season. For a 42 goal scorer that is abysmal and shameful. I just hope Chevy can find a trade partner and get a decent center in return. Tall order to be sure but its time for this core to get a complete reset. No room for me players that wont listen to the coach.
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If it was addition by subtraction, then it would've been exemplified in the PO's. However, without scheifele this team is abysmal and shameful in higher stakes games over the last few seasons.

I'm not gonna defend scheifele defensively, however I'm going to guess his +/- is skewed down heavily with EN GA. at 5v5 hockey he was a +1 and that's with terrible linemate finishing (like near-bottom of the league quality) Definitely hope for better though.

Maybe the coaches shouldn't put Connor and Scheifele together as it negatively affects the Jets' goal differential when they are paired on the ice together, and are both positives in net offense when apart.
 
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jokesondee said:
Ofcourse, but when youve got a guy who wont listen to the coach and whos goals against rivals/exceeds his goals for due to lazy play its time for a change. May even be an addition by subtraction situation at this point. He was -16 last season. For a 42 goal scorer that is abysmal and shameful. I just hope Chevy can find a trade partner and get a decent center in return. Tall order to be sure but its time for this core to get a complete reset. No room for me players that wont listen to the coach.
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well 5v5 he was actually on the ice for more goals scored then against and that's with bad linemates in the first half of the season and poor finishing in the second
 
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Mortimer Snerd said:
Of course Jets also want to win now - but they also need to face facts were Scheif and Helle are concerned. Just like Boston needs to face facts about the loss of both top 6C's and the aging of one their top two wingers.
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What exactly is your point. Facing facts? Both organizations have a better understanding or plan of their team than you.
 
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