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Player Discussion: Mark S Discussion

Jet said:
The problem is, is very hard to analyze your own game. Players can have an incorrect idea of what they need to do to contribute to the teams success. That's where coaching has to come in.

This one is on Maurice in my mind. Of course, we really don't know what conversations were being had, but it was pretty clear that there was a lack of accountability for veteran players.
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this is scheifele, the supposed hockey nerd or savant. also remember when he called stats and analytics hog-wash? perhaps he was being told his play is leading to the Jets being outshot/outchanced/outscored while on the ice, and he flat out ignored them. maybe this is the philosophy that maurice laid down to, we have no idea. if so, then just lol even more that he was around for this long.

nevertheless, the guy makes 6m and wears an A. he's still a great offensive player but imo if he flat out tried on the other 2/3s of the ice, it would have lead to greater success the past 4 years. there's nothing imo that scheifele is lacking in physical or skill traits to be at least average on the other 2/3s of the ice, and i think that's the stark difference from his play '16-'18 and the following years. he makes 6m and needs to be told to try, seriously?
 
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Jet said:
This meme continues. I do believe it Maurice made utilization errors with these players and didn't hold 55 accountable, but this buddy buddy Co coaching narrative is and has always been silly.

As a matter of fact, some of the stuff coming out more recently suggests there may have been a rift between Mo and Schiefele.

What is more likely is that statistically, those 2 players had been our best performers and Maurice overused them.
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People forget Maurice benched Scheifele during the 20-21 season.
 
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surixon said:
It was too little too late and it didn't stick because it came after a couple of years of allowing similar behavior by those two on the ice.
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Yup.

I'd add that if Scheifele was really playing to his potential and if accountability by the players and coach was as good as we can expect, we should be very, very worried. Because the product on the ice was mediocre.

Our best chance for success is if there are significant improvements in coaching, if Scheifele shows much more consistency in both ends and if Wheeler/Bowness defer to the younger stars on and off the ice.
 
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surixon said:
It was too little too late and it didn't stick because it came after a couple of years of allowing similar behavior by those two on the ice.
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I agree but it still happened and you hear often Maurice and Scheifele were buddy buddy and wouldn’t do anything to hurt each other’s feeling.

The NHL has been in a weird spot for the last 5ish years where the young kids are coming in and want to be treated/coached differently and lots of coaches are still adjusting and learning what to do, just speculating but the 2016 draft seems to be where it really changed, something like 11 of the top 15 picks are on different teams now, I think this has something to do with it.

People love to throw out the “Maurice said he doesn’t coach certain players” all the time, I think part of that is younger players now don’t want to be so structured and worry about every little mistake, it was speculated that is a reason why Cassidy and Trotz were let go.

St. Louis touched on that when he go the job in Montreal, he’ll coach the players sort of loosely but they’ll have the freedom to do what they want to an extent.

I think a lot of older coaches would have a hard time adjusting to that, especially good structured coaches like the two mentioned.

Maybe Maurice was trying to adjust/transition to this kind of coaching and that is a huge reason for many of the on ice complainants fans have.
 
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Imcanadianeh said:
People forget Maurice benched Scheifele during the 20-21 season.
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That was probably the beginning of the end for MO -

Scheif's reaction to the benching was a denial on any issues in his game -
It wouldn't be much of a leap to assume he tuned Mo at that point.

Maurice pulls the pin knowing he is up against a key cog in the Jet Org that is not interested in addressing (or even aware of) issues.

Scheif seems pretty excited now - new coach and a new beginning.
I wonder what Bowness has said to him up to this point?
I'd suspect nothing much beyond how great he thinks Scheif is and how things are going to be so much better moving forward.
In other words, he's saying all the right things in order to get Scheif and his feathers de-ruffled.

Will be interesting to watch this all unfold.
 
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nobody imp0rtant said:
And nowhere is that communication skill better displayed than in this video. Notice how RB stays calm and collected, precisely delineating the steps needed for the players to turn around their play during the game. A teacher, a strategist, a motivator. I'm sure 55 will welcome such guidance over the course of the season. :sarcasm:

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I love seeing a coach do this if the team is sleepwalking through a game, you wouldn't want to do it very often but sometimes that is what is needed to get the team going .
 
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LowLefty said:
That was probably the beginning of the end for MO -

Scheif's reaction to the benching was a denial on any issues in his game -
It wouldn't be much of a leap to assume he tuned Mo at that point.

Maurice pulls the pin knowing he is up against a key cog in the Jet Org that is not interested in addressing (or even aware of) issues.

Scheif seems pretty excited now - new coach and a new beginning.
I wonder what Bowness has said to him up to this point?
I'd suspect nothing much beyond how great he thinks Scheif is and how things are going to be so much better moving forward.
In other words, he's saying all the right things in order to get Scheif and his feathers de-ruffled.

Will be interesting to watch this all unfold.
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Didn’t 55 say to media he didn’t agree with him being benched?
When asked about the benching on Monday, Scheifele told reporters that while he understands his coach’s perspective, he didn’t agree with the decision.

“I understand where he’s coming from. I don’t agree with him benching me, but we don’t have to agree on everything. He’s my coach, I’m the player, we don’t have to agree on everything. That’s the business of sports,” he said ahead of Monday’s matchup against the Edmonton Oilers. “I’ll be ready to play tonight and that’s about it.”

Scheifele’s response to benching will help determine how far his Jets go – Sportsnet.ca

www.sportsnet.ca
 
Imcanadianeh said:
I agree but it still happened and you hear often Maurice and Scheifele were buddy buddy and wouldn’t do anything to hurt each other’s feeling.

The NHL has been in a weird spot for the last 5ish years where the young kids are coming in and want to be treated/coached differently and lots of coaches are still adjusting and learning what to do, just speculating but the 2016 draft seems to be where it really changed, something like 11 of the top 15 picks are on different teams now, I think this has something to do with it.

People love to throw out the “Maurice said he doesn’t coach certain players” all the time, I think part of that is younger players now don’t want to be so structured and worry about every little mistake, it was speculated that is a reason why Cassidy and Trotz were let go.

St. Louis touched on that when he go the job in Montreal, he’ll coach the players sort of loosely but they’ll have the freedom to do what they want to an extent.

I think a lot of older coaches would have a hard time adjusting to that, especially good structured coaches like the two mentioned.

Maybe Maurice was trying to adjust/transition to this kind of coaching and that is a huge reason for many of the on ice complainants fans have.
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Good post. You are correct that it does certainly seem that the centennial players look at things differently then the millennial ones. Could be one of the reasons Moe and Laine didn't often see eye to eye.

As for Moe adapting maybe that was true with certain top players but he certainly didn't allow some younger skilled players like Ehlers, Laine, JoMo, and Heinola to really play their full games. He tried model Ehelers, JoMo and Laine into the players he wanted. I'm not saying that he was fully wrong to do it either in the case of Laine and to a lesser extent Ehelers, and JoMo.

Ehlers now plays a more efficient and predictable game and he's equally as effective.

Morrissey developed a real strong defensive base but his offensive growth I felt was stagnate and didn't fully emerge until Lowry took over and Morrissey had the green light. But still Morrissey has emerged as a real strong all around top pairing player.

I do think there is a fine line between adding structure and allowing the players to play to their strengths while being creative. Bowness has seemed to put a lot of emphasis on this in his availabilities. He says we need more structure defensively but need to let our creative guys be creative. I am very interested in seeing what he comes up with to facilitate this and if it is ultimately successful.
 
surixon said:
Good post. You are correct that it does certainly seem that the centennial players look at things differently then the millennial ones. Could be one of the reasons Moe and Laine didn't often see eye to eye.

As for Moe adapting maybe that was true with certain top players but he certainly didn't allow some younger skilled players like Ehlers, Laine, JoMo, and Heinola to really play their full games. He tried model Ehelers, JoMo and Laine into the players he wanted. I'm not saying that he was fully wrong to do it either in the case of Laine and to a lesser extent Ehelers, and JoMo.

Ehlers now plays a more efficient and predictable game and he's equally as effective.

Morrissey developed a real strong defensive base but his offensive growth I felt was stagnate and didn't fully emerge until Lowry took over and Morrissey had the green light. But still Morrissey has emerged as a real strong all around top pairing player.

I do think there is a fine line between adding structure and allowing the players to play to their strengths while being creative. Bowness has seemed to put a lot of emphasis on this in his availabilities. He says we need more structure defensively but need to let our creative guys be creative. I am very interested in seeing what he comes up with to facilitate this and if it is ultimately successful.
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The question is was it Maurice that wanted to mold/turn these players into what he wanted/visioned them to be or was it more of an organization thing.

I’ll say any player making it to the NHL will have to change their game to a certain degree just to adapt and become a better player.

When Ehlers first started playing in the NHL his game was so unpredictable and it was often disgusted here it seems like his line mates are never sure what he’s doing so I can see why that needed to change. Not turn him into a different player but make him easier to play with.

I don’t think I’d agree with Morrissey tho, he came into the NHL as an offensive defenseman and talked about wanting to grow his defensive game before worrying about his offensive game, granted that could have been Maurice telling him that.

Either way during Morrissey’s third season he paced for 43 points then after that season was when the Jets defense was decimated, the next two years it’s understandable why Maurice didn’t want Morrissey to be consistently joining the rush but even with that he paced for 39 and 30 points, obviously not anything crazy but not far off from the 37 he had last season.

Much of the talk going into last season was the Jets were probably not going to hold back their defense and they’ll have the green light to join the rush, I don’t think Maurice or the organization wanted Morrissey to ignore the offensive game I think they just saw it as a must due to the roster, i think with or without Maurice Morrissey’s offensive game would have looked the same last season.
 
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robertocarlos said:
WTH? He's a pretty good actor. His performance from the backseat convinced me to go with MPIC for all my auto related insurance needs. He's not a stiff like Wayne.
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MarkScheifele-BackSeat.jpg
 
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scelaton said:
Yup.

I'd add that if Scheifele was really playing to his potential and if accountability by the players and coach was as good as we can expect, we should be very, very worried. Because the product on the ice was mediocre.

Our best chance for success is if there are significant improvements in coaching, if Scheifele shows much more consistency in both ends and if Wheeler/Bowness defer to the younger stars on and off the ice.
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I think you have to factor in how a coach deploys ice time. Running 3 lines and playing your top guns might get you some success, it will keep your stars happy, but a team that buys in to playing within their means will go farther. A lot of mistakes are made from fatigue, and tired players tend to cheat. Establishing a 4th line will be something that perhaps makes the team better as a whole. I'm interested to see how Bowness manages the minutes here.

I think the Jets are counting on Scheifele to be a PPG player, and a leader offensively. He was his best on the draw in his career last year, and I hope that's an element he brings next year which can produce some easy offense, by design.
 
Imcanadianeh said:
The question is was it Maurice that wanted to mold/turn these players into what he wanted/visioned them to be or was it more of an organization thing.

I’ll say any player making it to the NHL will have to change their game to a certain degree just to adapt and become a better player.

When Ehlers first started playing in the NHL his game was so unpredictable and it was often disgusted here it seems like his line mates are never sure what he’s doing so I can see why that needed to change. Not turn him into a different player but make him easier to play with.

I don’t think I’d agree with Morrissey tho, he came into the NHL as an offensive defenseman and talked about wanting to grow his defensive game before worrying about his offensive game, granted that could have been Maurice telling him that.

Either way during Morrissey’s third season he paced for 43 points then after that season was when the Jets defense was decimated, the next two years it’s understandable why Maurice didn’t want Morrissey to be consistently joining the rush but even with that he paced for 39 and 30 points, obviously not anything crazy but not far off from the 37 he had last season.

Much of the talk going into last season was the Jets were probably not going to hold back their defense and they’ll have the green light to join the rush, I don’t think Maurice or the organization wanted Morrissey to ignore the offensive game I think they just saw it as a must due to the roster, i think with or without Maurice Morrissey’s offensive game would have looked the same last season.
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With Morrissey it was more about the fact he wasn't given many offensive opportunities his first three years in the league.

He got next to no PP time his first two years:

37 seconds per game in his rookie year (5th among dmen on the team)
20 seconds per game in 17-18 (fourth among dmen)

He started getting some his 3rd year with 1 minute and 45 seconds per game for third on the team.

Also I'm not arguing against Morrissey developing a great d game and locking down a shut down pair. My critique is that I feel that his offense could have been developed quicker in parallel.

It goes beyond points for me, Morrissey was far more individually dangerous and assertive this past year then at any point prior. It showed in his goal totals and his iXG/60 was double his career average. Had he had a bit more puck luck on assists he puts up 50 points last year imo.

Good points on org vs Moe on development. I'm sure it was a group decision. Main point wasn't that I thought it was bad that some players had to modify their games just that the ones who didn't play the typical North/South straight line game were focused on far more then the ones who played that traditional game. I found that crested some org blind spots to those players and they weren't coached as much on their own weaknesses as the focus was on other players.
 
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Pretty interesting 32 thoughts with 55. He asked to the fact that he was expecting and hoping for some roster changes.

He also discussed the captaincy, and the rumors of him getting traded.

Really enjoyed it. Seemed very genuine.

PS I realize now this may be being discussed elsewhere
 
surixon said:
With Morrissey it was more about the fact he wasn't given many offensive opportunities his first three years in the league.

He got next to no PP time his first two years:

37 seconds per game in his rookie year (5th among dmen on the team)
20 seconds per game in 17-18 (fourth among dmen)

He started getting some his 3rd year with 1 minute and 45 seconds per game for third on the team.

Also I'm not arguing against Morrissey developing a great d game and locking down a shut down pair. My critique is that I feel that his offense could have been developed quicker in parallel.

It goes beyond points for me, Morrissey was far more individually dangerous and assertive this past year then at any point prior. It showed in his goal totals and his iXG/60 was double his career average. Had he had a bit more puck luck on assists he puts up 50 points last year imo.

Good points on org vs Moe on development. I'm sure it was a group decision. Main point wasn't that I thought it was bad that some players had to modify their games just that the ones who didn't play the typical North/South straight line game were focused on far more then the ones who played that traditional game. I found that crested some org blind spots to those players and they weren't coached as much on their own weaknesses as the focus was on other players.
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Agree with you on JMo. He was always an offensive D man with the tools and the smarts to develop into an all-round top pairing D with a solid O game, but there's no question that he was behind Buff and Trouba -- and maybe even Tyler Myers -- in terms of the PP pecking order. I'm glad to see him breaking out, but I doubt it was PoMo or Huddy's visionary coaching that enabled it.

I also think it's pretty clear that PoMo -- the wily vet coach with the golden tongue, who'd been with proper big-league teams -- had significant and perhaps growing influence within the org in terms of deployment, roster construction and development. Sometimes that was a good thing, as when he instituted tighter, more disciplined fitness and training expectations. Sometimes, when he came to his preferred player types and individuals and tactical moves, it was not such a good thing.

I suspect that Bowness may be a worse orator (thanks @FonRiesen, for that one!) but at least as good a communicator and likely a better tactician overall. I think we can expect to some players like 55, 27 and hopefully Cole and Gus / Barron etc really thrive under him, and if so this season should be a compelling one. Here's hoping.
 
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LowLefty said:
That was probably the beginning of the end for MO -

Scheif's reaction to the benching was a denial on any issues in his game -
It wouldn't be much of a leap to assume he tuned Mo at that point.

Maurice pulls the pin knowing he is up against a key cog in the Jet Org that is not interested in addressing (or even aware of) issues.

Scheif seems pretty excited now - new coach and a new beginning.
I wonder what Bowness has said to him up to this point?
I'd suspect nothing much beyond how great he thinks Scheif is and how things are going to be so much better moving forward.
In other words, he's saying all the right things in order to get Scheif and his feathers de-ruffled.

Will be interesting to watch this all unfold.
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Unlike Maurice and especially Lowry, Bowness doesn't need to worry about his next job. He is retiring anyway. Scheifele can either get with the program or sewer his next payday.

A really savy hire from TNSE when you think about it.
 
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Jet said:
Pretty interesting 32 thoughts with 55. He asked to the fact that he was expecting and hoping for some roster changes.

He also discussed the captaincy, and the rumors of him getting traded.

Really enjoyed it. Seemed very genuine.

PS I realize now this may be being discussed elsewhere
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Interesting I just listened to the 32 thoughts podcast but it was the one after Schief talked and in this one they broke down the fallout from the Wheeler demotion and I really enjoyed the back and forth between Friedman and Merek. Its kind of too much to break down hear (you kind of have to listen for yourself) but they talked about how there is a fine line in every room around the NHL and why there can be a fall from grace like in Winnipeg where the room went from being the envy of many other teams in the NHL to needing a change. Fun segment for me to listen to as a Jets fan that believes this is probably way more nuanced and complicated than it looks.
 
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Jet said:
Pretty interesting 32 thoughts with 55. He asked to the fact that he was expecting and hoping for some roster changes.

He also discussed the captaincy, and the rumors of him getting traded.

Really enjoyed it. Seemed very genuine.

PS I realize now this may be being discussed elsewhere
Click to expand...

Ok I just found the interview you were referencing. My take away is similar to yours. I thought Mark did seem genuine and I enjoyed the interview. Obviously last season was a gong show but that was then and this is now. If I have learned anything being a fan of the NHL its that every season is full of surprises and hopefully this is the season said surprises are more positive for our team.
 
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ps241 said:
Interesting I just listened to the 32 thoughts podcast but it was the one after Schief talked and in this one they broke down the fallout from the Wheeler demotion and I really enjoyed the back and forth between Friedman and Merek. Its kind of too much to break down hear (you kind of have to listen for yourself) but they talked about how there is a fine line in every room around the NHL and why there can be a fall from grace like in Winnipeg where the room went from being the envy of many other teams in the NHL to needing a change. Fun segment for me to listen to as a Jets fan that believes this is probably way more nuanced and complicated than it looks.
Click to expand...

Can you please post the link to this episode as I'd like to here it.
 
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