Player Discussion: Mark S Discussion

[rkp]

This isn’t clear at all…..it’s all speculation and really the best source we have (Eric Comrie) said everyone got along and it was the best group of guys he’d ever been around.

I’m sure everyone didn’t always get along but this theory that a group of players is trying to overthrow a different group of players like it’s Star Wars isn’t a fact like you state it to be.

lol...its amazing you dismiss other players accounts and yet maniacally desperately grasp onto one players comments to suit ur own agenda....

 

[cbcwpg]

You'll seldom hear a coach, manager, player etc ever come out and say the room is a mess.

On a side note, I was listening to some interviews of Rick Tocchet since his name has come up in the coaching thread....

In his opinion ( paraphrasing ) , he doesn't think a team can win if everyone in the room gets along in regards to the on ice play. He doesn't mean he wants guys hating each other, but he wants some conflict / tension between players when it comes to their play on the ice. IE: If a guy like Scheifele is seen to be dogging it defensively he would expect or want someone on the team to get in his face about it. And where you get into a mess in the room, is when that poor play isn't called out by someone.

 

[ps241]

One could also argue that Trotz is a coach that has benefited from one magic playoff run. And how much of that run was Barry, and how much of it was just the stars aligning much like they did for the Blues? As Yogi might say, winning a Cup is 50% skill, 50% effort and 50% luck.

I don't think the Preds teams Trotz coached were ever quite at the contender status from a talent pool perspective. It was an expansion franchise that very slowly built their roster depth. His seasons in Washington and New York were solid IMO yielding a cup win and two final four appearances.

 

[ps241]

On a side note, I was listening to some interviews of Rick Tocchet since his name has come up in the coaching thread....

In his opinion ( paraphrasing ) , he doesn't think a team can win if everyone in the room gets along in regards to the on ice play. He doesn't mean he wants guys hating each other, but he wants some conflict / tension between players when it comes to their play on the ice. IE: If a guy like Scheifele is seen to be dogging it defensively he would expect or want someone on the team to get in his face about it. And where you get into a mess in the room, is when that poor play isn't called out by someone.

Very interesting.

I think a challenge can occur if the players do their part in the room holding each other accountable as individuals but the coach doesn't build in some accountability for some of the actions on the ice by his so called leaders?

As always though more information on complicated topics is a good thing.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

One could also argue that Trotz is a coach that has benefited from one magic playoff run. And how much of that run was Barry, and how much of it was just the stars aligning much like they did for the Blues? As Yogi might say, winning a Cup is 50% skill, 50% effort and 50% luck.

Yes - but there is also Barry's record with teams that did not win the cup, like the Isles. He got that team to the SCF one year, the ECF the next year. They were not that good a team on paper.

 

[tbcwpg]

Yes - but there is also Barry's record with teams that did not win the cup, like the Isles. He got that team to the SCF one year, the ECF the next year. They were not that good a team on paper.

The Isles did not make the SCF. They made the ECF twice in a row and lost to the Lightning in 7 twice in a row.

 

[Imcanadianeh]

lol...its amazing you dismiss other players accounts and yet maniacally desperately grasp onto one players comments to suit ur own agenda....

Who’s comments am I dismissing?

Tell me one player that said we’re trying to take power from the older core, should be pretty easy to find because it’s pretty clear that’s what’s happening…..

Ironically you’re ignoring the only player in that dressing room to actually speak out on how it was in the room last year because it doesn’t fit your agenda.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

The Isles did not make the SCF. They made the ECF twice in a row and lost to the Lightning in 7 twice in a row.

Right. I was going by them having lost in rd 4 in '20. That was the year of the extra rd of PO. My mistake.

 

[ecolad]

I don't think the Preds teams Trotz coached were ever quite at the contender status from a talent pool perspective. It was an expansion franchise that very slowly built their roster depth. His seasons in Washington and New York were solid IMO yielding a cup win and two final four appearances.

But I think it`s fair to say that in both Washington and New York, he stepped into a good situation - taking over rosters that matched very nicely with his preferred type of play. While they may not have been good teams when he took over, each of them had a nice blend of skilled offensive players with size, who were prepared to engage physically and compete in puck battles along the boards with a level of intensity. He of course built on that, adding much needed strategic structure and discipline (with emphasis to reducing risk and goals against).

I sometimes wonder though if Trotz has the ability to adjust his thinking in the event that our guys don`t respond well to his preferred approach?

EDIT : Sorry, I think that I have drifted further away from the thread subject -which should be Scheif.... .

 

[surixon]

But I think it`s fair to say that in both Washington and New York, he stepped into a good situation - taking over rosters that matched very nicely with his preferred type of play. While they may not have been good teams when he took over, each of them had a nice blend of skilled offensive players with size, who were prepared to engage physically and compete in puck battles along the boards with a level of intensity. He of course built on that, adding much needed strategic structure and discipline (with emphasis to reducing risk and goals against).

I sometimes wonder though if Trotz has the ability to adjust his thinking in the event that our guys don`t respond well to his preferred approach?

EDIT : Sorry, I think that I have drifted further away from the thread subject -which should be Scheif.... .

What are your thoughts of some of those Preds teams he coached right after the lockout? Those teams were driven upfront by small skilled speedsters in Karyia, Sullivan, Erat etc. They had some big center like Arnott and Legwand but I'd really only classify Jason as physical.

To me those Preds teams are likely a close approximation to what we have now. You have Ehlers and Conner as your Sullivan/Kariya lite wingers and Dubois seems to approximate Arnott. Then you have Mark who is a more skilled Legwand.

Having said that we don't have a Weber/Sueter young contingent but we have some equivalents to Hamious, Timmonen and Zidlicky imo.

 

[ps241]

But I think it`s fair to say that in both Washington and New York, he stepped into a good situation - taking over rosters that matched very nicely with his preferred type of play. While they may not have been good teams when he took over, each of them had a nice blend of skilled offensive players with size, who were prepared to engage physically and compete in puck battles along the boards with a level of intensity. He of course built on that, adding much needed strategic structure and discipline (with emphasis to reducing risk and goals against).

I sometimes wonder though if Trotz has the ability to adjust his thinking in the event that our guys don`t respond well to his preferred approach?

EDIT : Sorry, I think that I have drifted further away from the thread subject -which should be Scheif.... .

Yea I think his approach was a really tough sell culturally for both teams initially. Washington was at the mercy of Ovi and he did not like to defend. The Isles were a mess defensively and gave up the most goals in the NHL the year Barry came aboard. I do think that he had some nice assets in place on both teams but the sales job would not have been easy. Put it another way if he could sell it to those teams then there is no reason to think he cant sell it to the current Jets roster.

 

[ps241]

What are your thoughts of some of those Preds teams he coached right after the lockout? Those teams were driven upfront by small skilled speedsters in Karyia, Sullivan, Erat etc. They had some big center like Arnott and Legwand but I'd really only classify Jason as physical.

To me those Preds teams are likely a close approximation to what we have now. You have Ehlers and Conner as your Sullivan/Kariya lite wingers and Dubois seems to approximate Arnott. Then you have Mark who is a more skilled Legwand.

Having said that we don't have a Weber/Sueter young contingent but we have some equivalents to Hamious, Timmonen and Zidlicky imo.

I liked some of those teams but I didn’t really consider them contender level although they might have got to the fringe.

 

[surixon]

I liked some of those teams but I didn’t really consider them contender level although they might have got to the fringe.

Yeah, imo they were a level down from a contender. I was just brining them up as the types of pieces upfront where similar and he showed he could coach them to good results atleast in the regular season.

I don't remember the style of play and systems he employed though but I doubt it involved career crashing and banging lol.

 

[ps241]

Yeah, imo they were a level down from a contender. I was just brining them up as the types of pieces upfront where similar and he showed he could coach them to good results atleast in the regular season.

I don't remember the style of play and systems he employed though but I doubt it involved career crashing and banging lol.

In fairness we I guess we haven’t been a contender level since 2018-19 and our window was two years. If we get a Trotz this season who knows but contender would be a stretch.

 

[ecolad]

Yea I think his approach was a really tough sell culturally for both teams initially. Washington was at the mercy of Ovi and he did not like to defend. The Isles were a mess defensively and gave up the most goals in the NHL the year Barry came aboard. I do think that he had some nice assets in place on both teams but the sales job would not have been easy. Put it another way if he could sell it to those teams then there is no reason to think he cant sell it to the current Jets roster.

No disagreement here. But the concern I have goes beyond "selling" a certain approach. We may simply have assets that cannot play that style efficiently and therefore the team will not be able to compete at needed levels.

 

[DRW204]

When people say contender. Are they talking cup or PO's?

It doesn't take much for be a PO contender, top 18ish teams (is 16 teams +9th in each conf. a fair estimate? ) . The Jets are already there, again in a 32 team league just hover around 50%, doesn't take much.

Cup contender... Really I think there's 4-5 cup contenders each year based on a mix of reg season and recent PO success.

Does trotz put us in the second group? Are we handedly usurping COL, STL, MIN, NSH in the central for instance? Then consider healthy Vegas, or Calgary. Still lots of offseason left ofc.

 

[ps241]

When people say contender. Are they talking cup or PO's?

It doesn't take much for be a PO contender, top 18ish teams (is 16 teams +9th in each conf. a fair estimate? ) . The Jets are already there, again in a 32 team league just hover around 50%, doesn't take much.

Cup contender... Really I think there's 4-5 cup contenders each year based on a mix of reg season and recent PO success.

Does trotz put us in the second group? Are we handedly usurping COL, STL, MIN, NSH in the central for instance? Then consider healthy Vegas, or Calgary. Still lots of offseason left ofc.

Cup

If it’s contender to make playoffs I call that bubble team (my terms only these are not universal terms)

 

[DRW204]

Cup

If it’s contender to make playoffs I call that bubble team (my terms only these are not universal terms)

OK well I think this team has a long ways to go to be a top 5 team again. You need others faling off, improvements from current key players and then upgrades on d, bottom 6.

 

[surixon]

No disagreement here. But the concern I have goes beyond "selling" a certain approach. We may simply have assets that cannot play that style efficiently and therefore the team will not be able to compete at needed levels.

You raise a good point. I doubt he trys to get us to play like the Islanders but do we have the pieced to play like the captials. I'd say we likely have the defensive pieces but we don't have about Ovie or Wilson to lead the way upfront.

 

[tbcwpg]

When people say contender. Are they talking cup or PO's?

It doesn't take much for be a PO contender, top 18ish teams (is 16 teams +9th in each conf. a fair estimate? ) . The Jets are already there, again in a 32 team league just hover around 50%, doesn't take much.

Cup contender... Really I think there's 4-5 cup contenders each year based on a mix of reg season and recent PO success.

Does trotz put us in the second group? Are we handedly usurping COL, STL, MIN, NSH in the central for instance? Then consider healthy Vegas, or Calgary. Still lots of offseason left ofc.

I think there's a good chance they can jump Nashville, and Minnesota has over 10% of their cap as dead space for the next 3 seasons.

We'll see how Calgary does without Gaudreau, who I expect to leave. Vegas has cap stuff to deal with and who knows about their goaltending.

There tends to be one or two teams every year that people didn’t expect to be cup level at the start. I think the team has some good pieces, I think they're closer to deep run level than bottoming out, but the new coach will of course have a huge impact on that.

 

[ps241]

When people say contender. Are they talking cup or PO's?

It doesn't take much for be a PO contender, top 18ish teams (is 16 teams +9th in each conf. a fair estimate? ) . The Jets are already there, again in a 32 team league just hover around 50%, doesn't take much.

Cup contender... Really I think there's 4-5 cup contenders each year based on a mix of reg season and recent PO success.

Does trotz put us in the second group? Are we handedly usurping COL, STL, MIN, NSH in the central for instance? Then consider healthy Vegas, or Calgary. Still lots of offseason left ofc.

I am running between gigs but I will have to give it some more thought. We are not going to magically become the 2017-18 Jets because we don’t have that insane cap leverage of 70 goals coming off of two ELC contracts, nor do we have anything resembling that D core.


If we are lucky we can jump a tier next season into the group snuggling up to the real contenders. This season that would have been St Louis, and Minny in the Central. We are not going to be at the level of Colorado but it doesn’t mean we can’t compete with the right coaching and goaltending in a 7 game series. Now…….. for that to happen the team would need to buy into a new coaches system that works well and Hellebuyck would need a strong bounce back.

I will wait to see who the coach is before I make any predictions.

 

[ps241]

No disagreement here. But the concern I have goes beyond "selling" a certain approach. We may simply have assets that cannot play that style efficiently and therefore the team will not be able to compete at needed levels.

That’s possible. The thing is he had the Isles play a really defensive system but with Washington they didn’t become boring just more structured and thorough. I think Barry would devise a plan that worked around our personnel. I know he could do wonders in season 1 I’m just not sure how long the transformation lasts.

 

[surixon]

Good discussion @ecolad what would your thoughts be on Cassidy as a coach for us. To me while he also brings the defensive structure his offensive philosophy on using data to derive locations and the types of movement that leads to optimum chance generation seems to fit better with our forwards. He is big on seam passes and attacking in waves which in my mind is tailor-made for our forward group.

I'd imagine Scheifele would love playing in an offensive scheme designed to get him the puck in optimal shooting locations. Ditto with guys like Conner and Ehlers and it would work well with playmakers like Blake and Cole who can read and make those passes.

 

[snowkiddin]

I am running between gigs but I will have to give it some more thought. We are not going to magically become the 2017-18 Jets because we don’t have that insane cap leverage of 70 goals coming off of two ELC contracts, nor do we have anything resembling that D core.


If we are lucky we can jump a tier next season into the group snuggling up to the real contenders. This season that would have been St Louis, and Minny in the Central. We are not going to be at the level of Colorado but it doesn’t mean we can’t compete with the right coaching and goaltending in a 7 game series. Now…….. for that to happen the team would need to buy into a new coaches system that works well and Hellebuyck would need a strong bounce back.

I will wait to see who the coach is before I make any predictions.

Colorado will take a step back next year but they’ll still be the picks of the litter in the Central.

Every other team we can compete with.

 

[ecolad]

Good discussion @ecolad what would your thoughts be on Cassidy as a coach for us. To me while he also brings the defensive structure his offensive philosophy on using data to derive locations and the types of movement that leads to optimum chance generation seems to fit better with our forwards. He is big on seam passes and attacking in waves which in my mind is tailor-made for our forward group.

I'd imagine Scheifele would love playing in an offensive scheme designed to get him the puck in optimal shooting locations. Ditto with guys like Conner and Ehlers and it would work well with playmakers like Blake and Cole who can read and make those passes.

What little I`ve read/observed suggests that Cassidy might well be a really good coach to step into the situation here. He brings the necessary "cachet" to deal with the personality challenges associate with our roster and has a proven track record of success. Importantly, I believe that he was given free reign to make deployment decisions in Boston, but with full support of management who set out their expectations for all players (team interests above all else). Technically, I like what I see him doing in Boston and hope that he might be prepared to adjust things to further suit our roster. As you noted, he seems to focus on optimizing both the defensive and offensive side of the equation - moreso than Trotz in my opinion.